Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[authentic]

5 goals is 5 goals on the score sheet, like I said it's not a strong argument as he has many stronger points but also not surprising that some will hold onto that.


I highlighted the 2 strongest arguments here.

Dave Ganger actually holds the Oiler record for most points in a game that's part of my drift here.

Sam Gagner, and also that Gretzky fella of course

 

[Video Nasty]

Howe and Orr played without Helmets, and no one was concerned about concussions, what were the average shift times in the 50's 60's 60-90 seconds? equipment was also much heavier. Teams traveled by train instead of planes, wanted to review a game it took a day or two and you had to watch it on film not on your phone.

On the flip side with this technology, athletes of today, particularly since social media took the world by storm, have never been more scrutinized and picked apart during every single second of every single day and still go out and dominate.

While your points are great and I’ve made some of those same arguments myself, we shouldn’t discount the other side of the coin.

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

5 goals is 5 goals on the score sheet, like I said it's not a strong argument as he has many stronger points but also not surprising that some will hold onto that.


I highlighted the 2 strongest arguments here.

Dave Ganger actually holds the Oiler record for most points in a game that's part of my drift here.

I would have thought that Brent Gertzky had that record.

 

[Duffalufagus]

I grew up watching Gretzky and Lemieux. Greatest two players to ever play the game. But neither is the most talented player to ever play the game, because that is Connor McDavid and it's not close, really. 152+ points in today's NHL is more impressive than 200 in the 80's and early 90's. It just is. The goalies were laughably bad back then.

Now, "greatest" is a different question and must, definitionally I think, include winning. If McDavid doesn't win at least two cups I don't think he should even be in the conversation for greatest hockey player of all-time. The same way Dan Marino, one of the greatest QB talents of all-time, is not considered one of the greatest QBs of all time because he never won the lombardi.

 

[wetcoast]

Sam Gagner, and also that Gretzky fella of course

Still one thing is not like the other and Gretzky isn't the greatest of all time because of a single 8 point game (or even 2 of them)

 

[Crosby2010]

It is far too premature to be talking about McDavid as the #2 guy of all-time. There is a guy who just had a 93 point year at the age of 35 who is still actually pretty good that I think he needs to surpass before we can talk about the big 4 on top of that. We'll see how McDavid maintains his elite play.

Also, as great of a year as he had this year he's still behind say, Mario, in 1996 for instance. It is a year that is in the neighbourhood of Gretzky's best Kings years, but nothing close to his Oilers years. Lemieux had 4 seasons where he surpassed the amount of points in a year McDavid had in 2023. There is just a level McDavid has not reached and may never. He's not at Mario's best. He's maybe at Mario's 5th best year at this point. Hey look, nothing to sneeze at, but it just goes to show you how hard it will be to crack the top 4. They hit levels that others didn't.

 

[McFlash97]

It is far too premature to be talking about McDavid as the #2 guy of all-time. There is a guy who just had a 93 point year at the age of 35 who is still actually pretty good that I think he needs to surpass before we can talk about the big 4 on top of that. We'll see how McDavid maintains his elite play.

Also, as great of a year as he had this year he's still behind say, Mario, in 1996 for instance. It is a year that is in the neighbourhood of Gretzky's best Kings years, but nothing close to his Oilers years. Lemieux had 4 seasons where he surpassed the amount of points in a year McDavid had in 2023. There is just a level McDavid has not reached and may never. He's not at Mario's best. He's maybe at Mario's 5th best year at this point. Hey look, nothing to sneeze at, but it just goes to show you how hard it will be to crack the top 4. They hit levels that others didn't.

Sorry man. As a hockey player on a sheet of ice breaking new territory in the modern. Game. He has far surpassed Sid. Sid has championships but so do bums with 4 or more championships. Do you declare them better than 87 ?

McDavid is that player todays kids see and he is basically their Gretzky. Incomparable. Untouchable is his prime. So far ahead of his peers. Lapping the field. His skillset is tailored made for today's game like Gretzkys was for the 80s. His wow factor and head shaking moments littered on YouTube. Skating around entire teams and making a mockery out of hockey's best defensemen.

You can say he doesn't have 66 and 99's sheer numbers... but the era is different and players and rules are different. Equipment is different. Coaching is different. Enjoy this era. I was impressed by Sid. However greatness is very rare. Your watching it now.

 

[Crosby2010]

Sorry man. As a hockey player on a sheet of ice breaking new territory in the modern. Game. He has far surpassed Sid. Sid has championships but so do bums with 4 or more championships. Do you declare them better than 87 ?

McDavid is that player todays kids see and he is basically their Gretzky. Incomparable. Untouchable is his prime. So far ahead of his peers. Lapping the field. His skillset is tailored made for today's game like Gretzkys was for the 80s. His wow factor and head shaking moments littered on YouTube. Skating around entire teams and making a mockery out of hockey's best defensemen.

You can say he doesn't have 66 and 99's sheer numbers... but the era is different and players and rules are different. Equipment is different. Coaching is different. Enjoy this era. I was impressed by Sid. However greatness is very rare. Your watching it now.

After 7 seasons

Crosby 609 points in 434 games
McDavid 697 points in 487 games

Crosby 1.40 PPG
McDavid 1.43 PPG

Seriously, before this season that's exactly how it was. Pretty darn even, and obviously we give the edge to Crosby in the playoffs. If you want to factor in two-way play it's probably him too, although McDavid is so dominant on the ice he falls into the factor where you basically are just trying to defend him and that's all.

Crosby 90 points in 68 games
McDavid 55 points in 37 games

McDavid had a year in 2023 that Crosby has never had but up until then they were even. People forget this and seem to re-trace their steps as if McDavid had these sort of seasons all along. He didn't. Even in the playoffs he was sort of a lousy playoff performer for a player of his ilk. It is very easy to forget just how good Crosby was at the same age. So McDavid certainly has a long ways to go to catch Crosby in career value.

 

[McFlash97]

After 7 seasons

Crosby 609 points in 434 games
McDavid 697 points in 487 games

Crosby 1.40 PPG
McDavid 1.43 PPG

Seriously, before this season that's exactly how it was. Pretty darn even, and obviously we give the edge to Crosby in the playoffs. If you want to factor in two-way play it's probably him too, although McDavid is so dominant on the ice he falls into the factor where you basically are just trying to defend him and that's all.

Crosby 90 points in 68 games
McDavid 55 points in 37 games

McDavid had a year in 2023 that Crosby has never had but up until then they were even. People forget this and seem to re-trace their steps as if McDavid had these sort of seasons all along. He didn't. Even in the playoffs he was sort of a lousy playoff performer for a player of his ilk. It is very easy to forget just how good Crosby was at the same age. So McDavid certainly has a long ways to go to catch Crosby in career value.

McDavid put up 105 points in 56 games 2 seasons ago too. 150 point pace. the gap widens if you simply dig deeper. He might do it again the way its looking. Even wider.

Its over. Crosby was legit. He lived up to his status as a franchise altering player who won cups and scored golden goals.

However its over. A true game changing player arrived and its literally changing the way the game is played in the modern era. I truly believe the higher scoring seasons are because players and teams are using rush tactics and game logic the way McDavid plays and using it to their own players advantage.

Its the McDavid effect.

 

[Strangle]

I didn’t exist during the Howe era, but I find that anybody who played in the 50’s are nowhere near the fitness and skill level of todays game. Extrapolating what he would’ve done today is just unreasonable given the multitude of factors.

This is just such an ignorant take. I keep hearing people say that fitness and being in shape was somehow a problem for these guys in the 50’s and even in the 80’s.

Look at Howe and Bobby hull and then look at Ovechkin and McDavid.

People have no clue how jacked these guys were

 

[authentic]

This is just such an ignorant take. I keep hearing people say that fitness and being in shape was somehow a problem for these guys in the 50’s and even in the 80’s.

Look at Howe and Bobby hull and then look at Ovechkin and McDavid.

People have no clue how jacked these guys were

Oh Bobby Hull could hay bale McDavid with one arm, but as fast as he was probably would have a hard time catching him out on the ice.

 

[kugelbahn]

McD best player this century, Crosby best grinder of all time, Ovi best goal scorer of all time, there are enough titles for everyone!

 

[Strangle]

Oh Bobby Hull could hay bale McDavid with one arm, but as fast as he was probably would have a hard time catching him out on the ice.

McDavid is fast as f***. But even the talk of players in the 80’s/90’s being ‘out of shape’ is bullshit.

Check out how jacked Pavel Bure was.

These hockey players today are not in better shape than the elites of yesterday.

Gretzky could play 40 minutes a night

Tyson was a product of 80’s nutrition and fitness too

 

[Crosby2010]

Even someone not known for being in shape. This is him in 1972 I am guessing? Not too shabby. You can't score 717 goals without having strength and endurance.

McDavid put up 105 points in 56 games 2 seasons ago too. 150 point pace. the gap widens if you simply dig deeper. He might do it again the way its looking. Even wider.

Its over. Crosby was legit. He lived up to his status as a franchise altering player who won cups and scored golden goals.

However its over. A true game changing player arrived and its literally changing the way the game is played in the modern era. I truly believe the higher scoring seasons are because players and teams are using rush tactics and game logic the way McDavid plays and using it to their own players advantage.

Its the McDavid effect.

At his best McDavid is better than Crosby. But career wise he has a ways to go. Crosby still rung up another Art Ross/Hart season and had two Conn Smythes to his name. I will say there is barely any difference between the two players 7 years in their careers.

 

[dirtydanglez]

This is just such an ignorant take. I keep hearing people say that fitness and being in shape was somehow a problem for these guys in the 50’s and even in the 80’s.

Look at Howe and Bobby hull and then look at Ovechkin and McDavid.

People have no clue how jacked these guys were

i think they are talking about the average player then and now.

 

[Strangle]

i think they are talking about the average player then and now.

The thread specifically mentions Howe

Howe was a BEAST

 

[dirtydanglez]

The thread specifically mentions Howe

Howe was a BEAST

the 'howe era'

 

[authentic]

McDavid is fast as f***. But even the talk of players in the 80’s/90’s being ‘out of shape’ is bullshit.

Check out how jacked Pavel Bure was.

These hockey players today are not in better shape than the elites of yesterday.

Gretzky could play 40 minutes a night

Tyson was a product of 80’s nutrition and fitness too

His legs were the most impressive part. I think I agree with you that the fitness levels are majorly overblown between the elite players of different eras, but players today are infact more skilled and better trained to play hockey to their full potential. Make no mistake about McDavid is the most skilled hockey player ever, to dominate like he is today with the skill level and speed of the game is absurd.

 

[McFlash97]

McDavid is fast as f***. But even the talk of players in the 80’s/90’s being ‘out of shape’ is bullshit.

Check out how jacked Pavel Bure was.

These hockey players today are not in better shape than the elites of yesterday.

Gretzky could play 40 minutes a night

Tyson was a product of 80’s nutrition and fitness too

Gretzky's lung capacity was insane. he was 100 % all the time.

 

[Video Nasty]

After 7 seasons

Crosby 609 points in 434 games
McDavid 697 points in 487 games

Crosby 1.40 PPG
McDavid 1.43 PPG

Seriously, before this season that's exactly how it was. Pretty darn even, and obviously we give the edge to Crosby in the playoffs. If you want to factor in two-way play it's probably him too, although McDavid is so dominant on the ice he falls into the factor where you basically are just trying to defend him and that's all.

Crosby 90 points in 68 games
McDavid 55 points in 37 games

McDavid had a year in 2023 that Crosby has never had but up until then they were even. People forget this and seem to re-trace their steps as if McDavid had these sort of seasons all along. He didn't. Even in the playoffs he was sort of a lousy playoff performer for a player of his ilk. It is very easy to forget just how good Crosby was at the same age. So McDavid certainly has a long ways to go to catch Crosby in career value.

If anyone is forgetting about the first 7 seasons of Crosby’s career, it’s you. The myth of his fabled two way play didn’t come along for another two seasons and was designed to explain away why he lost a step and finished behind Benn, Tavares, and Kane in scoring races at ages 27 and 28.

Through 7 seasons, it wasn’t even. Through 8 seasons, the gulf has widened and there’s nothing in sight that is going to stop that chasm from increasing.

Crosby had 1 Hart, 1 additional finalist nomination, 0 extra top 5 nods, 1 Pearson/Lindsays, 1 Art Ross, 1 extra top 2 scoring finish that he was tied for, was top 2 in PPG 5 times (he missed 130 games during 3 of those occasions) and had a Rocket through 7 seasons.

McDavid had 2 Harts, 1 additional finalist nomination, 2 additional top 5 nods, 3 Pearson/Lindsays, 4 Art Rosses, 2 extra top 2 scoring finishes, and was top 2 PPG for 6 consecutive seasons (while playing all but 13 games during that stretch) through 7 seasons.

McDavid just made the comparison through 8 seasons an absolute joke and it’s only going to get worse, particularly if the Oilers win the Cup and he collects the Conn Smythe this postseason.

 

[McFlash97]

Even someone not known for being in shape. This is him in 1972 I am guessing? Not too shabby. You can't score 717 goals without having strength and endurance.
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At his best McDavid is better than Crosby. But career wise he has a ways to go. Crosby still rung up another Art Ross/Hart season and had two Conn Smythes to his name. I will say there is barely any difference between the two players 7 years in their careers.

Hey,

I get you man. You grew up with Crosby. Nothing wrong in backing up your boy. All good. I'm just stating facts man. Even some of the Crosby fans on HF have realized its over. You don't see them anymore coming to Crosby's defense. No point. No one's hating on Sid the Kid. He has been surpassed. History isn't stupid. McDavids place has been cemented already as a top 5 talent of all time. If he wins a cup, then he stands alone amongst the immortals numbered 99 and 66. The trifecta is only a cup away. Whether its this year or next. McDavid has that killer instinct. He wants his cup.

His highlights will remain decades after he is retired. Instead of hanging on to some petty argument, let it go man. Enjoy this prodigious talent.

 

[GeeoffBrown]

I do think it is plausible that he will go down as #2 all time in points. Right now it's Jagr right? It really depends on how or if he's playing when he's 40.

 

[Video Nasty]

I do think it is plausible that he will go down as #2 all time in points. Right now it's Jagr right? It really depends on how or if he's playing when he's 40.

If he plays the games, he’ll be closing in on 1300 points early on during his age 30 season (150, 135, 135 the next 3 seasons as an example).

Pretty safe bet at this point.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I do think it is plausible that he will go down as #2 all time in points. Right now it's Jagr right? It really depends on how or if he's playing when he's 40.

Who the hell puts Jagr as #2 all time?

1 is Gretzky, 2 is Lemieux, 3 is Orr and 4 is Howe. Most people I've seen don't even consider Jagr a serious challenger for #5.

 

[sennysensen]

You can't really say McD is better than or worse than prime Mario, they're both incredible.

But in the end we can say McD has the better career as long as his durability continues.

You can kind of say the same thing WRT Bobby Orr.