Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[I am toxic]

Thread title has funny way of writing 4th. On my device it sorta looks like it says 2nd.

Maybe op can fix that.

 

[wetcoast]

Thread title has funny way of writing 4th. On my device it sorta looks like it says 2nd.

Maybe op can fix that.

Just curious as to whom is he replacing at 4th?

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Just curious as to whom is he replacing at 4th?

I'd guess Howe is the intended player. Not saying I'm right.

 

[wetcoast]

I'd guess Howe is the intended player. Not saying I'm right.

I asked because different people have different answers among Howe, Mario and Orr (which is a big mistake including Orr)

 

[Pablo El Perro]

I asked because different people have different answers among Howe, Mario and Orr (which is a big mistake including Orr)

As of now, I rank them Gretzky and Orr as interchangable, then Lemieux slightly edging out Howe. McDavid has a chance of being up there when all is said and done Orr was a unicorn. Short career unfortunately.

 

[wetcoast]

As of now, I rank them Gretzky and Orr as interchangable, then Lemieux slightly edging out Howe. McDavid has a chance of being up there when all is said and done Orr was a unicorn. Short career unfortunately.

I have it as Gretzky #1 and then Orr, Howe and Mario.

Mario is a bit of a weak link here but I can also see Howe getting bumped out at some point with a 6 team to 32 team argument....potentially.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

I have Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe then Orr.
All these guys can get accused of benefiting from being the right guy in the right place at the right time... but I think it's more glaring with Howe and Orr. Regardless, they were what they were and they did what they did when they did it... and no one else came close. But man, Orr's LQ is just the worst.
Anyway, if McJesus (who also is benefiting from being the right guy at the right time) can stay at this level for another half decade or so, he starts edging into the top of the tops, IMHO. Best case scenario, he gets to 3.

 

[Kingfan1967]

Orr
Hardware in a 9 year career - ( last 4 years was only 36 games total)
Calder
8x Norris (all in a row)
2x Art Ross
2x Conn Smythe
2x Hart Memorial
Lester B. Pearson

ONLY DEFENSEMAN TO LEAD THE LEAGUE IN SCORING IN HISTORY - HE DID IT TWICE
not that it's a great or even good stat but Orr also has the highest +/- at +124 in a single season , and has the 2nd highest total(career) in 1/2 the games of Larry Robinson (1st) and Wayne (3rd)
remove his last 4 years (36 total games 11g 45p)
From 1966-67 to 1974-75 (a 9 year career)
621gp 259g 611a 870p
Orr is solidly in the top 2 and some have him 1st over Wayne

 

[MessierII]

Orr
Hardware in a 9 year career - ( last 4 years was only 36 games total)
Calder
8x Norris (all in a row)
2x Art Ross
2x Conn Smythe
2x Hart Memorial
Lester B. Pearson

ONLY DEFENSEMAN TO LEAD THE LEAGUE IN SCORING IN HISTORY - HE DID IT TWICE
not that it's a great or even good stat but Orr also has the highest +/- at +124 in a single season , and has the 2nd highest total(career) in 1/2 the games of Larry Robinson (1st) and Wayne (3rd)
remove his last 4 years (36 total games 11g 45p)
From 1966-67 to 1974-75 (a 9 year career)
621gp 259g 611a 870p
Orr is solidly in the top 2 and some have him 1st over Wayne

He obviously had a a great career and is the unanimous greatest D man of all time but it was still 9 years. I just can’t put him ahead of someone like Howe who played in 5 decades. Longevity has value.

 

[1989]

He obviously had a a great career and is the unanimous greatest D man of all time but it was still 9 years. I just can’t put him ahead of someone like Howe who played in 5 decades. Longevity has value.

If longevity has value, where does McDavid sit all-time if his career ended short (for whatever reason, knock on wood) today?

 

[MessierII]

If longevity has value, where does McDavid sit all-time if his career ended short (for whatever reason, knock on wood) today?

Not top 5 at least not to me. Probably still top 10 on pure talent and trophies.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

As dominant as Orr was, his peak pretty much exactly coincided with the NHL's lowest LQ since WWII. @Hockey Outsider did a very well researched post on the History pages estimating the depth of the league talent pool from 1953-2023... and based on his numbers "Gordie Howe played in the most competitive league. There was no meaningful difference between the level of competition faced by Gretzky and Lemieux; and Orr played against the weakest competition."
McDavid is playing in the highest competitive era since Expansion.

 

[MessierII]

As dominant as Orr was, his peak pretty much exactly coincided with the NHL's lowest LQ since WWII. @Hockey Outsider did a very well researched post on the History pages estimating the depth of the league talent pool from 1953-2023... and based on his numbers "Gordie Howe played in the most competitive league. There was no meaningful difference between the level of competition faced by Gretzky and Lemieux; and Orr played against the weakest competition."
McDavid is playing in the highest competitive era since Expansion.

For sure 70’s was the most watered down the league ever was. More than doubled the amount of teams in a few short years plus had the WHA syphoning talent all while only having essentially Canada as a legitimate talent pool.

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

Probably but playing in a 32 team Salary cap NHL is a lot different than the 06 era and the 70's and 80s before the clutch and grab era in the later 90s.

70's definitely weren't "clutch and grab"...70's was the "Slash, chop, hack, bludgeon, and Target-the-star" when there was only 1 set of ref's eyes era, far worse. Why would a player harmlessly clutch and grab when one could more easily hammer a wrist/ankle, cross check a back, or target an already injured knee especially when a lot of it wasn't even considered a minor penalty? Grainy old highlight reels do not reflect the amount of injurious stuff that went on, especially behind the play. Fights weren't staged (those were in the future) they occurred for a reason and, usually, a good one.

Orr, the brightest and most valuable star of the 70's had almost 50 fights in his relatively short career. He had to starting as a rookie because that's just how hockey was, they were tested in an era where players did their own fighting, but it didn't stop after he was a vet. Beginning barely 10 years later, Gretzky had only 2 or 3 fights during a career twice as long. As measure in the opposite direction in time, Orr had twice the number fights that Gordie Howe did during his 2.5 decade career.

The Flyers were the first expansion team to win the Cup, did it again, and thus set the tone for what was seen as a winning formula (a "formula" is a 70's version of a "system") when there were twice as many expansion teams vs the Originals, all gunning to establish their own legacies. There was no running history to fall back on. The Broad Street Bullies formula, physical and aggressive to an even higher degree than 06 hockey seemed to work and, not surprisingly, more teams followed suit. It was as close to the Wild West decade of hockey there was.

The appearance of enforcers in the 80's was a direct result of this; teams wanting to protect their investment/star players before league rule changes caught up with the idea. They didn't like the image of LaFleur with a bloody, bandaged head, Orr unable to skate, or Bossy unable to stand even as he preached and lived-by a no-fight ethos. There was almost no injury recovery/rehab management and medical procedures hadn't made a leap yet as they did in the following decades, let alone today.

It's hard to imagine now since all wunderkinds and players are so protected by rules and good sense, but after a couple seasons Gretzky, notably unlike the stars before him, remained so physically unscathed that even Semenko's presence couldn't explain it, a conspiracy theory arose that the NHL itself was secretly protecting him as their Golden Boy marketing centerpiece.

For anyone who had been watching or playing hockey up to that point, it seemed surreal and even frustrating that a smallish guy who wasn't the fastest skater could score so much without getting blown up occasionally. That's how ingrained what was considered to be the "normal" level of physicality in the NHL was; conspiracy theories and the idea that "If a player needs a designated protector, he's not really as good as those who don't".

I believe that even though the 06 era was tough, physical hockey there existed a measure of respect and self-policing between players that took a huge dive when the League more than tripled in size from '67-'76, 6 teams to 18. No way could the rules keep up with that and it became open season-ish (esp amongst the up-and-comers). Many careers ended too early, others never got traction because of it, and teams drafted accordingly to fit the game as it existed and becoming. 70's were the Era of equal opportunity pain which ended with the emergence of enforcers, rules changes, and the protection of increasingly high-value assets. There was still pain and punishment of course, but targeting top players for execution became generally frowned upon and disincentivized through various measures.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Nope


Some big “ifs”, like I said it depends how McDavids is second half goes

These opinions are going to look more and more foolish as time goes on. Not interested in debating McDavid > Crosby any more than I am the color of the sky with you. It just is.

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

I doubt he ever passes Crosby on the list.

McDavid has two big minuses that although have nothing to do with him will likely hurt hi legacy when comepeting with the others.

1. If he sticks with Edmonton no chance to win a Cup let alone multiple Cups. While it might be unfair to hold up team achievements when judging individual players when you are talking about the GOAT's it will be a factor and every other top player has multiple wins so McDavid having none will hurt him. It will be interesting to see if he wins some late in his career after his prime is over and he leaves Edmonton how that might change but zero Cups in his prime won't help when it is such a close comparison.

2. No chance for international success. The Golden goal is a signature moment in Crosby's career, him leading Canada to one of the most dominant performances in Sochi helps him as well. Again this might not be fair and not everyone will say it matters but overall I think it affects people's view on players and McDavid is going to miss out on the chance to get that signature international moment- Gretzky to Lemiuex in 87 as well.

Even ignoring these I think it is way too early to think he will be number 2, that isn't a mark against him just an acknowledgement on how great the other players at the top are/were.

I would never judge a player off of one goal, no matter how historic it may be. PPG over a lifetime with regards to the scoring rate league wide, yes. An important goal will lift him up at the present day sure, but over the course of history, no. Ppl will look at overall accomplishments, and superiority over peers when comparing them over the course of NHL history, as it should be.

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

The 2nd best producer from 2015-2016 onwards is

Drasaitl with 695 in 579 games

Mcdavid has 810pts in 547

The second best producer in terms of ppg is Kucherov

He has 616 pts in 486 games which becomes 693 in 547 games

So Mcdavid is 117 pts better in the ~8 years since entering the league than Kucherov, which is basically attributed to his 25-30 pt dominance over the filed in 2021 and 2023.[/b]

Outside of those years he is 5-10 pts usually better than everyone else when he's winning the ross

He will need another 1-2 years of 25-30 pt >2nd to be in that 99/66 level of superiority

Im going to take your stats as true, regardless of your ignorance on the next point.

How is 2 seasons of 25-30 pts equal to 117 point separation?

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

McDavid's career so far: 810 points in 547 games
Crosby's first 547 games: 767 points in 547 games

Considering differences in goal scoring eras (about 5% higher scoring in McDavid's career compared to Crosby), their first 547 games have been extremely comparable. Adjusting to normalize goal scoring per game, Crosby's first 547 games would be equivalent to 805 points with being in the NHL in the same years as McDavid. Crosby had a lower scoring league with better competition and had more injuries to deal with.



Lmfao there is absolutely no chance that McDavid has passed Howe after 550 games in the NHL. What a ludicrous statement.

Scoring rates may be up in McDavid era but the PP chances during Crosby's era was astronomical; and Crosby played lots on the PP. Crosby's percentage of time on the PP vs ES is pretty significant. McDavid does not have the same TOI comparison, yet he has capitalized and scored at a higher pace vs his peer than Crosby

 

[Tuna99]

He’s not better than Mario, sorry. Nobody was better then Mario pure talent wise (even Wayne)

 

[TheAngryHank]

70's definitely weren't "clutch and grab"...70's was the "Slash, chop, hack, bludgeon, and Target-the-star" when there was only 1 set of ref's eyes era, far worse. Why would a player harmlessly clutch and grab when one could more easily hammer a wrist/ankle, cross check a back, or target an already injured knee especially when a lot of it wasn't even considered a minor penalty? Grainy old highlight reels do not reflect the amount of injurious stuff that went on, especially behind the play. Fights weren't staged (those were in the future) they occurred for a reason and, usually, a good one.

Orr, the brightest and most valuable star of the 70's had almost 50 fights in his relatively short career. He had to starting as a rookie because that's just how hockey was, they were tested in an era where players did their own fighting, but it didn't stop after he was a vet. Beginning barely 10 years later, Gretzky had only 2 or 3 fights during a career twice as long. As measure in the opposite direction in time, Orr had twice the number fights that Gordie Howe did during his 2.5 decade career.

The Flyers were the first expansion team to win the Cup, did it again, and thus set the tone for what was seen as a winning formula (a "formula" is a 70's version of a "system") when there were twice as many expansion teams vs the Originals, all gunning to establish their own legacies. There was no running history to fall back on. The Broad Street Bullies formula, physical and aggressive to an even higher degree than 06 hockey seemed to work and, not surprisingly, more teams followed suit. It was as close to the Wild West decade of hockey there was.

The appearance of enforcers in the 80's was a direct result of this; teams wanting to protect their investment/star players before league rule changes caught up with the idea. They didn't like the image of LaFleur with a bloody, bandaged head, Orr unable to skate, or Bossy unable to stand even as he preached and lived-by a no-fight ethos. There was almost no injury recovery/rehab management and medical procedures hadn't made a leap yet as they did in the following decades, let alone today.

It's hard to imagine now since all wunderkinds and players are so protected by rules and good sense, but after a couple seasons Gretzky, notably unlike the stars before him, remained so physically unscathed that even Semenko's presence couldn't explain it, a conspiracy theory arose that the NHL itself was secretly protecting him as their Golden Boy marketing centerpiece.

For anyone who had been watching or playing hockey up to that point, it seemed surreal and even frustrating that a smallish guy who wasn't the fastest skater could score so much without getting blown up occasionally. That's how ingrained what was considered to be the "normal" level of physicality in the NHL was; conspiracy theories and the idea that "If a player needs a designated protector, he's not really as good as those who don't".

I believe that even though the 06 era was tough, physical hockey there existed a measure of respect and self-policing between players that took a huge dive when the League more than tripled in size from '67-'76, 6 teams to 18. No way could the rules keep up with that and it became open season-ish (esp amongst the up-and-comers). Many careers ended too early, others never got traction because of it, and teams drafted accordingly to fit the game as it existed and becoming. 70's were the Era of equal opportunity pain which ended with the emergence of enforcers, rules changes, and the protection of increasingly high-value assets. There was still pain and punishment of course, but targeting top players for execution became generally frowned upon and disincentivized through various measures.

might be the best post iv'e ever read

 

[centipede2233]

I think we really won’t know until mcdavid is at Crosby’s age now. If mcdavid has a couple more 140 plus point seasons, harts and rockets, a couple of Stanley cups and 1-2 con smythe, I can see mcdavid falling at #2 when You factor in longevity. But make no mistake, I take a prime Mario and prime Orr over a prime mcdavid, just that longevity does play a factor when listing the top 4-5 of all time.

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

For sure 70’s was the most watered down the league ever was. More than doubled the amount of teams in a few short years plus had the WHA syphoning talent all while only having essentially Canada as a legitimate talent pool.

The WHA's first season was '72/'73. By '72/'73 Orr had already won the Calder, 5 Norris, 1 Ross, 3 Hart, 2 Conn Smythe, 2 Stanley Cups.

'72/'73 and later Orr added 3 Norris, 1 Ross, 1 Pearson.

Between 67-72 the season high-scoring Original 6 forwards, most of whom were still 30 or younger, were also playing in that same league and yet Orr as a D began outscoring them year after year. The names he's displacing are both Hulls, Makita, Howe.

In Hull's '72 NHL season he was 50/43/93, Orr was 37/80/117.

From the beginning of the 69/70 season until the end of the 74/75 season, only 1 player (Espo) scored more points each season than Orr the defensemen. It doesn't matter how strong or weak the competition was, where were all the other forwards against the same opponents?

And this is just talking about the offence game.

 

[WJCJ]

As of now, I rank them Gretzky and Orr as interchangable, then Lemieux slightly edging out Howe. McDavid has a chance of being up there when all is said and done Orr was a unicorn. Short career unfortunately.

Yes, Orr’s career was cut way too short. I would loved to have seen what he would have done without such bad injuries to his knees. He was almost done with his career at McDavid’s age.

 

[OKR]

I see absolutely no reason to rank Howe above McDavid tbh. Lemieux, Orr and Gretzky are still clear, but why Howe?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lol imagine thinking the second best player ever getting swept twice in a 2 year span at his peak. Lmfaoooo