Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[HFpapi]

Thread title has funny way of writing 4th. On my device it sorta looks like it says 2nd.

Maybe op can fix that.

I've said in OP and in other comments 2nd will be very, very difficult (but not impossible).

As far as I'm concerned McDavid is more likely than not to pass Howe for 4th at this point, I just don't think Howe will have anything over him when it's said and done.

Passing Orr and Super Mario is obviously a very tall task but their shortened careers leaves the door open.

Orr played only 650 games.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I've said in OP and in other comments 2nd will be very, very difficult (but not impossible).

As far as I'm concerned McDavid is more likely than not to pass Howe for 4th at this point, I just don't think Howe will have anything over him when it's said and done.

Passing Orr and Super Mario is obviously a very tall task but their shortened careers leaves the door open.

Orr played only 650 games.

Howe>Lemieux is functionally a consensus in history discussions.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lmao literally Gretzky got swept... go back to sleep

This is like that dumb Jordan and Montana argument that never losing in the finals increases their mythos because losing the round the before is somehow better...

It's going to be gravy when he gets swept for the third straight season..

 

[HFpapi]

Howe>Lemieux is functionally a consensus in history discussions.

But really shouldn't be.

Not one to diminish the history of the league but not having to play against Russians, Americans, Swedes, Finns, Czechs, now Germans even, that's a huge mark against IMO.

Look at Howe's scoring titles and look at the nationality of the players in the top 20-30. All Canadian. What a tiny talent pool to compete against.

Mario equalled Howe's hardware but did it against Jagr, Forsberg, Fedorov, Selanne, Bure, Modano etc as well as the best Canadians.

 

[gotcha90]

Can someone explain why winning 8 Norris trophies in a row (Orr) is better than 8 Hart trophies in a row (Gretzky)? I simply do not understand how anyone could rank Orr over Gretzky.

Maybe the argument is he played with bad knees his whole career? Still not sure how you project good knee Orr above Gretzky then if he literally never had good knees in the NHL.

 

[HFpapi]

Can someone explain why winning 8 Norris trophies in a row (Orr) is better than 8 Hart trophies in a row (Gretzky)? I simply do not understand how anyone could rank Orr over Gretzky.

Maybe the argument is he played with bad knees his whole career? Still not sure how you project good knee Orr above Gretzky then if he literally never had good knees in the NHL.

Orr is spectacular but I feel like Orr > Gretzky is just a hipster opinion people like to take to be different.

Gretzky is arguably the most clear cut GOAT of any major sport ever (maybe Messi now too).

One of the most statistically dominate athletes ever who did it for 20 years, won 4 titles as part of a dynasty. There's no debate about Wayne at #1.

 

[I am toxic]

I've said in OP and in other comments 2nd will be very, very difficult (but not impossible).

As far as I'm concerned McDavid is more likely than not to pass Howe for 4th at this point, I just don't think Howe will have anything over him when it's said and done.

Passing Orr and Super Mario is obviously a very tall task but their shortened careers leaves the door open.

Orr played only 650 games.

Should change the thread title from "will" to "might but probably won't".

 

[NyQuil]

I was fairly certain that Tiger Woods was going to smash Jack Nicklaus’ record for majors until he didn’t.

It seemed almost inconceivable at the time that he wouldn’t continue to rack them up.

Obviously his downfall was due to non-golf related health issues but anything is possible - even more so in a physical sport like hockey.

 

[HFpapi]

Should change the thread title from "will" to "might but probably won't".

But I think he will, so no.

I see McDavid being the consensus #2 when he retires.

 

[Frank Drebin]

At least you agree the opinion that he’s better than Crosby is foolish

Double down. Good

 

[Three On Zero]

Double down. Good

Truth hurts?

 

[Frank Drebin]

Truth hurts?

For some, the truth hurts so much they choose to live in a different reality. Thanks for sharing a glimpse into yours.

 

[Three On Zero]

For some, the truth hurts so much they choose to live in a different reality. Thanks for sharing a glimpse into yours.

Don’t worry eventually you’ll come back to what is actually true

 

[Midnight Judges]

Mario equalled Howe's hardware..

No he didn't.

Howe is a 6 time MVP. Lemieux is a 3 time MVP.

I was fairly certain that Tiger Woods was going to smash Jack Nicklaus’ record for majors until he didn’t.

It seemed almost inconceivable at the time that he wouldn’t continue to rack them up.

Obviously his downfall was due to non-golf related health issues but anything is possible - even more so in a physical sport like hockey.

Many of Tiger's issues were self-inflicted.

Nobody forced him to fire his swing coach, start running in combat boots, taking pain killers and recking his car.

Criticizing these things and holding him accountable is fair game. He squandered his talent to some extent.

 

[NyQuil]

Many of Tiger's issues were self-inflicted.

Nobody forced him to fire his swing coach, start running in combat boots, taking pain killers and recking his car.

Criticizing these things and holding him accountable is fair game. He squandered his talent to some extent.

Ok?

None of this has anything to do with the fact that he was well on his way to be the most accomplished golfer of all time.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

There, I said it.

The big 4 has been mythologized and deified but it’s been fine since no player has made a compelling argument to question the sanctity of it until now.

Crosby made an argument for 5th best of all-time but even without losing those three seasons of his prime, I don’t think he was ever a serious threat to Howe/Orr/Super Mario.

McDavid is peaking higher than Howe right now. He’s simply a better player and I’m done pretending that he’s not. (Insert Joker meme).

Howe has legendary longevity but Connor has been very healthy and shows no signs of slowing down. Even if he doesn’t match Howes’ longevity (who can) I value the peak more.

Also, far be it for me to discredit the OG’s, we simply have to factor into the equation that Howe played in a 6 team league against almost exclusively Canadians. We simply have to acknowledge how much more competition McDavid has. He’s being trailed in the scoring race by a German, Russian, and Czech. That simply didn’t happen in Howes’ day.

Connor isn’t nor will he peak higher than Mario or #4 but neither player reached even 1000 games.

If McDavid wins 7-8 scoring titles and 5-6 MVP’s and plays 1400 games I think you have to put him number #2 all-time.

Either way, it’s incredible what we are witnessing right now.

Thoughts? Will McDavid be #2 of all-time when the dust settles?

Didn’t happen in Wayne’s day either, but as Wayne showed in international play, none of them were a threat to steal scoring titles from him anyway.

Mario is 4th for me, and he was a better player than McDavid.

He might end up 1st if he passes/gets close to Gretzky in Rosses/Harts/Lindsay

But the best and greatest player to play the sport of hockey is Mario Lemieux

The 2001 season is for me his most amazing. 76 pts in 43 games in the dead puck era coming off three years of being retired. He was better than 2023 Mcdavid by a significant margin

Mcdavid would be Draisaitl to Lemieux

Mario couldn’t hold Gretzky’s jock strap.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

People always forget how small the pool of elite players was back in the O6 era.
No Germans, No Russians. No Swedes.
It's not as simple as "LOOK AT THE PERCENTAGES! LOOK HOW MANY CUPS THEY WON!"

Mostly irrelevant because none of them alive at the time could compete anyway.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

But really shouldn't be.

Not one to diminish the history of the league but not having to play against Russians, Americans, Swedes, Finns, Czechs, now Germans even, that's a huge mark against IMO.

Look at Howe's scoring titles and look at the nationality of the players in the top 20-30. All Canadian. What a tiny talent pool to compete against.

Mario equalled Howe's hardware but did it against Jagr, Forsberg, Fedorov, Selanne, Bure, Modano etc as well as the best Canadians.

Who cares about this? Modano Lolol.

 

[Score08]

Can someone explain why winning 8 Norris trophies in a row (Orr) is better than 8 Hart trophies in a row (Gretzky)? I simply do not understand how anyone could rank Orr over Gretzky.

Maybe the argument is he played with bad knees his whole career? Still not sure how you project good knee Orr above Gretzky then if he literally never had good knees in the NHL.

Gretzky scored goals as a forward, Orr did what Gretzky did as defenseman= Orr is the GOAT.

Mcdavid doesn’t belong in the same sentence as these guys, yet.

 

[blundluntman]

Can someone explain why winning 8 Norris trophies in a row (Orr) is better than 8 Hart trophies in a row (Gretzky)? I simply do not understand how anyone could rank Orr over Gretzky.

Maybe the argument is he played with bad knees his whole career? Still not sure how you project good knee Orr above Gretzky then if he literally never had good knees in the NHL.

To be fair, he had seasons where he scored 135+ points while being the best in the league defensively as well. That's insane as far as peaks go and he basically did everything at an unbelievable level. Gretzky's offensive numbers are crazy and better but Orr was equally impactful when you take everything into account. Their peaks are equal imo but I get why people rank Gretzky higher

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ok?

None of this has anything to do with the fact that he was well on his way to be the most accomplished golfer of all time.

Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you.

JMO, but the things that hindered him are for game for comparing him to the other all-time greats.

 

[GoBuds14]

Orr is spectacular but I feel like Orr > Gretzky is just a hipster opinion people like to take to be different.

Gretzky is arguably the most clear cut GOAT of any major sport ever (maybe Messi now too).

One of the most statistically dominate athletes ever who did it for 20 years, won 4 titles as part of a dynasty. There's no debate about Wayne at #1.

Lol I don’t agree. A lot of older fans who watched him will tell you Orr was the best player they ever laid eyes on. Accolades and statistics make Gretzky the pretty clear GOAT from my perspective, yet again I never watched Orr

 

[authentic]

Lol I don’t agree. A lot of older fans who watched him will tell you Orr was the best player they ever laid eyes on. Accolades and statistics make Gretzky the pretty clear GOAT from my perspective, yet again I never watched Orr

It's not really too complicated for those who don't get it, Bobby Orr dominated other defenseman in scoring by a larger percentage than Gretzky dominated other forwards and he was also elite defensively. He did this just about every season of his relatively healthy career. Peak Bobby Orr is the absolute definition of being in another league than every other player of his time just as much if not more so than Gretzky was.

To be fair, he had seasons where he scored 135+ points while being the best in the league defensively as well. That's insane as far as peaks go and he basically did everything at an unbelievable level. Gretzky's offensive numbers are crazy and better but Orr was equally impactful when you take everything into account. Their peaks are equal imo but I get why people rank Gretzky higher

Were Gretzky's numbers really better though? Orr dominated the defenseman of his time by even more. The fact that he even scored more than any other forward a few seasons just demonstrates how crazy he was offensively.

 

[authentic]

But I think he will, so no.

I see McDavid being the consensus #2 when he retires.

If he stays healthy this is very possible even if many people would never agree with it.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I can see him at 5th. But guys like Lemieux and Orr simply peaked higher. He can't pass them.