Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[BoldNewLettuce]

Ya I vehemently disagree with people who just toss aside Stanley Cups as part of the GOAT conversation. How the elite players perform when the lights are brightest absolutely matters. I understand the team aspect that are out of players control at times, but that’s sports, you either get it done or you don’t when it comes down to comparing GOATS

I think there are just cases where cups dont matter.

I'd consider Bure one of the best players of all-time, Forsberg as well. Like I feel like peak Forsberg and Bure are perhaps better than OV/Crosby but maybe thats hyperbole.

 

[WaitingForThatCab]

I didn’t exist during the Howe era, but I find that anybody who played in the 50’s are nowhere near the fitness and skill level of todays game. Extrapolating what he would’ve done today is just unreasonable given the multitude of factors.

Gordie Howe was an incredible physical specimen who puts most of the guys playing today to shame.

This is just silly talk.

 

[Tuna99]

It's the complete picture, eye test, stats, usage and era strengths and weaknesses, players strengths and weaknesses, talent but actually producing, 2 way play, , intangibles, longevity, peak, prime, playoffs the whole enchilada.

so Mario won Cups when the best player in the game was playing, so he should be #2.

Not sure how McDavid is even in the same conversation as Mario.

 

[Leafsfan74]

I think there are just cases where cups dont matter.

I'd consider Bure one of the best players of all-time, Forsberg as well. Like I feel like peak Forsberg and Bure are perhaps better than OV/Crosby but maybe thats hyperbole.

Forsberg could do it all. He would be a unicorn in todays game. OV in his prime is fairlg comparable actu ally. Forsbetg also wn mu!tille Cups and shined Internationakky if I remmeber correctly.

Bure was beautiful on skates. It illustrates just how absurd McDavid is with speed though. To make the moves he makes...Bure was great, pure N/S. McDavid is on another level with his skating and stickhandling combo though.

 

[KCC]

so Mario won Cups when the best player in the game was playing, so he should be #2.

Not sure how McDavid is even in the same conversation as Mario.

Mario is overrated af because he had 40% of his career points on the PP. And apparently on here, getting PP points is bad. lol

Sixth player to ever score 150 points and did it in the most competitive era for the sport that there's ever been. Only one that didn't take place in that mid-70's-early 90's high scoring era.

Exactly. Way more teams, way more talent top to bottom, players are in the best shape ever with nutrition and fitness etc. And he's making them look like pee wee players. It's insane.

 

[authentic]

Forsberg could do it all. He would be a unicorn in todays game. OV in his prime is fairlg comparable actu ally. Forsbetg also wn mu!tille Cups and shined Internationakky if I remmeber correctly.

Bure was beautiful on skates. It illustrates just how absurd McDavid is with speed though. To make the moves he makes...Bure was great, pure N/S. McDavid is on another level with his skating and stickhandling combo though.

Actually, not really. He had a ton of plays circling the offensive zone and darting in and out of traffic with lateral movement. It's easy to just remember him skating straight forward most of the time though but he really was an all around skating dynamo. McDavid is no doubt the best skater ever though.

I think peak Bure and Forsberg are right there with peak Ovechkin and Crosby, not really that crazy to think if you go back and watch them at their best.

 

[NeelyWasAWarrior]

Recency Bias

Gretz is number 1

Orr is number 2. Should technically be number 1 but I get why 99 is GOAT.

I like McDavid. He's the best in the game today but Orr DOMINATED both ends of the ice as a defenseman. He was Gretzky and Lemiuex in the back end with Lidstrom shut down defense.

Can't take that away from the guy.

Actually, not really. He had a ton of plays circling the offensive zone and darting in and out of traffic with lateral movement. It's easy to just remember him skating straight forward most of the time though but he really was an all around skating dynamo. McDavid is no doubt the best skater ever though.

I think peak Bure and Forsberg are right there with peak Ovechkin and Crosby, not really that crazy to think if you go back and watch them at their best.

Bure was a great goal scorer. Shade below OV and obviously below crosby. Crosby is excellent at both ends particularly in his prime. Bure was more just a pure goal scorer without defensive prowess. And OV is consistent, durable and going to be the record holder for all time goals.

 

[NeelyWasAWarrior]

Will never get above Mario or Wayne.

"5 bobby orrs easily beat 5 wayne gretzkys"

Wayne Gretzky said that....and he's right. Orr was a generational as an offensive player and generational as a defensive player. He controlled the game and was light years ahead of his time.

 

[wetcoast]

so Mario won Cups when the best player in the game was playing, so he should be #2.

The Penguins won 2 SC as a team effort 2 years removed from Gretzky being the best in the game on a poor NYI team and even so this logic is extremely weak as Teams win SC's not players.

Championship counting is probably the laziest way to compare individual players yet a lot of people take this lazy way out.

Not sure how McDavid is even in the same conversation as Mario.

Not sure where you have been this season or heck since the 16-17 season.

5 Art Ross trophies and 201 points more than the next non team mate in the NHL and he did okay in the playoffs last season as well.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Which of the big 4 ever played on a team as badly constructed as the Oilers?

Heck even last year when they got swept by the Avs, the Avs made TB look like crap in the SC final game where they just controlled the last 10 minutes of a close game.

Your comments, and I say this respectively , are trivial and just aren't adding to the conversation here.

Have a quick peak at TB route to the final versus Colorado’s. Also note TB still took as many games from Colorado as the entire rest of the West combined.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

You need to dominate (not just exceed) your peers for several years to get into the conversation.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

He’s honestly the most gifted player to ever play.

He’ll never touch Gretzky’s records but in terms of just pure hockey ability he has a very good case as being the most talented player ever.

It’ll be a “Big 5“ by the time his career is done.

Lemieux low key is arguably better than grestsky. Lesser teammates than greTSKy had early in his career, he just couldn't stay healthy. Although I guess staying on the ice is relevant too.

Lemieux would challenged a lot of Gretzky numbers though if not for injuries chronic pain and cancer.

 

[McFlash97]

64 goals and 151 points. 2 games still remaining on the schedule in 2023. He also had the same pace in 2021.

Top 3 forward of all time.

 

[wetcoast]

You need to dominate (not just exceed) your peers for several years to get into the conversation.

He has already done that though.

Here is how he stacks up since 16-17

McDavid 800
Leon 680
Mack 591
Bread 581
Kuch 577

That's an elite 7 year stretch and gets one into the conversation.

64 goals and 151 points. 2 games still remaining on the schedule in 2023. He also had the same pace in 2021.

Top 3 forward of all time.

Not quite yet but he is trending that way sure.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

At the start of the season, McDavid had scored 697 points, which put him tied for 253rd all-time. As of today, McDavid is up to 848 points, which ranks him 148th.

I noticed that McDavid could end up as the 100th player in NHL history to score 1,000 points. 95 players are already there. Then there are four players who are very close - Joe Pavelski is 1 point back, Claude Giroux is 2, Phil Kessel is 8, and John Tavares in 27. Assuming Kessel plays one more season, these four players with become the 96th, 97th, 98th and 99th players (in some order) to score 1,000 points.

Four of the active players ahead of McDavid are Perry (883 points), Toews (882), Parise (878) and Marchand (858). Of the first three players, McDavid should fly by them assuming no injuries (all of them will finish this season with under 40 points). Marchand is only ten points ahead of McDavid and, at age 34, looks to be slowing down.

The only other player who has a chance to get to 1,000 points ahead of McDavid is Blake Wheeler. I wouldn't have guessed, but he's already at 922. He's right around 0.8 PPG this year (but is 36 and looks to be slowing down). My guess is Wheeler won't reach 1,000 points until early in the 2024-25 season. Truthfully I wouldn't bet on McDavid reaching 1,000 points next season either, but I think he'll get there before Wheeler. So my prediction is McDavid will become the 100th player in NHL history to reach 1,000 points.

 

[pcruz]

His best argument will probably be against Lemieux. People are willing to downgrade Howe basically because most fans are not familiar with him at this point, but his peak is tremendous and his longevity is unparalleled and gives him a unique argument. McDavid won't be able to match Orr's peak and the difference in position will give people pause. He won't be able to match Gretzky for peak and even people unfamiliar with Gretzky are content to look at the trophy case and call him the best, and McDavid will never have a trophy cast to match Gretzky's.

That leaves Lemieux. Realistically he is unlikely to match Lemieux's peak, but Lemieux was rarely able (just once) to play a full season at peak level and he missed so much time overall. In terms of lazy trophy counting McDavid has a chance against Lemieux and in terms of longevity Lemieux is ripe for the picking. A big part of Lemieux's argument, as he really doesn't have any quality argument against Gretzky by conventional metrics, is that people watch his highlights and are wildly impressed. Gretzky was a less visually appealing player and Orr/Howe don't have many highlights available. McDavid is visually spectacular and everything he does is recorded. In the end he may end up with more trophies than Lemieux, far better longevity, and a better highlight reel. If that happens and many fans grow up with memories of McDavid but only a vague familiarity with Lemieux, people will be able to overlook Lemieux being a step up at his best.

Mario scored 160 points in 60 games in a season where he paused his play due to Radiation therapy for cancer.

Not only that, but he comes back to win the scoring race in that same season.

That year, plus the 199 point season are what will always have Mario above anyone not named Gretzky, in terms of forwards.

Howe was fantastic for so long, and he was incredibly dominant as well.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

He has already done that though.

Here is how he stacks up since 16-17

McDavid 800
Leon 680
Mack 591
Bread 581
Kuch 577

That's an elite 7 year stretch and gets one into the conversation.


Not quite yet but he is trending that way sure.

Sorry, you don’t get to add up 8 years. That isn’t how this works.

Lol. Wayne’s first 8 years using your methodology, the difference versus peers is not far off of McD’s 8 year point totals.

 

[MessierII]

Sorry, you don’t get to add up 8 years. That isn’t how this works.

Lol. Wayne’s first 8 years using your methodology, the difference versus peers is not far off of McD’s 8 year point totals.

I mean he’s currently 41 points ahead of the next non teammate.

 

[wetcoast]

Sorry, you don’t get to add up 8 years. That isn’t how this works.

Lol. Wayne’s first 8 years using your methodology, the difference versus peers is not far off of McD’s 8 year point totals.

Sorry you don't get to make up the rules and not use context but I guess some people are just like that eh?

 

[Gurn]

Orr
Mario
Howe
Gretzky


Then the next tier- in no particular order
Stasny
Trottier
Bossy
Hawerchuk
Perrault
Jean Beliveau
Gainey
Dionne




Then the current crop
Crosby
O.V.
McDavid

In a few more years Crosby, O.V. and Conner will be competing to get into the second tier. They all make that level, but Mc David in particular needs a couple more seasons.

edit- I'm sure Ov, Sid and McDavid will be in the next tier, at the least, but I'm not putting them there until their careers are over.

 

[Video Nasty]

Orr
Mario
Howe
Gretzky


Then the next tier- in no particular order
Stasny
Trottier
Bossy
Hawerchuk
Perrault
Jean Beliveau
Gainey
Dionne




Then the current crop
Crosby
O.V.
McDavid

In a few more years Crosby, O.V. and Conner will be competing to get into the second tier. They should all make that level, but Mc David in particular needs a couple more seasons.

Some of these guys in your second tier have absolutely no case over Crosby, Ovechkin, and McDavid. All three of the “current crop” are already in the second tier. I don’t have a problem as it stands with anyone who puts McDavid firmly behind Crosby and Ovechkin, but the reckoning is coming and it’s heading here quickly.

By the time 12 seasons are under his belt, McDavid will likely be 5th all time, which will only solidify with more years and when the dust settles, folks who value both longevity and peak will have no problem constructing the argument that Gretzky and Howe are the only ones that can be argued over him. If some use the same arguments they used for Crosby (larger league, less chances to pick up hardware with more players, “modern and advanced”, there should be no question to them that McDavid would rank no lower than 3rd.

For the ones who could never fathom the Big Four being breached, we’re going to be having some really uncomfortable conversations over the coming years.

Hope the History of Hockey subforum will be honest with themselves when the time comes.

Because if Orr and Lemieux can soak up two of the top 4 spots with as much time as they missed, there should be no problem ranking McDavid sky high when he has a dozen fairly full seasons in the books with the amount of hardware he already has and what is very likely to come.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Sorry you don't get to make up the rules and not use context but I guess some people are just like that eh?

Find me anyone who buys your “argument” with regards to dominance versus peers.

I’ll wait.

With my BS meter in hand.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I mean he’s currently 41 points ahead of the next non teammate.

Yes. Now dominate multiple times and you enter the conversation.

 

[Jetcetera]

he won't even come close to Lemieux

 

[mattihp]

He needs team hardware to beat out one of Wayne, Mario and Bobby. Not going to get it in Edmonton without a huge paycut.