Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[authentic]

Recency Bias

Gretz is number 1

Orr is number 2. Should technically be number 1 but I get why 99 is GOAT.

I like McDavid. He's the best in the game today but Orr DOMINATED both ends of the ice as a defenseman. He was Gretzky and Lemiuex in the back end with Lidstrom shut down defense.

Can't take that away from the guy.



Bure was a great goal scorer. Shade below OV and obviously below crosby. Crosby is excellent at both ends particularly in his prime. Bure was more just a pure goal scorer without defensive prowess. And OV is consistent, durable and going to be the record holder for all time goals.

I meant more so peak ability rather than career. Bure is not close to Ovechkin or Crosby on an all-time list.

Peak Bure had 58 goals in 74 games at his peak in 2000 which was basically identical in scoring to 2008 (2.72 to 2.75), 64 goal pace, then he scored 59 in the following season and Ovechkin scored 56 in 79 after his 65 goal year.

 

[authentic]

McDavid continues to improve which is remarkable. Most players peak statistically much earlier… he has great work ethic and he understands when to use his speed better than before.

Individually he is up with the best but when all is said and done team success is what truly counts and in this regard he still has ways to go…

If he will not suffer major injury and wins a couple of cups he will retire as a top 5 player…

Lemieux, gretzky, orr, mcdavid and bossy

He just turned 26 halfway through this season, that's like the definition of a peak year for high scoring forwards.

 

[McVespa99]

He just turned 26 halfway through this season, that's like the definition of a peak year for high scoring forwards.

No its not. Most top end offensive players have their peak year/years before age 25. I dont remember the exact breakdown but it has been posted many times on here by others. That having been said there are always lots of exceptions. Very large players usually peak later, same with skinny weaker players. It takes some guys time to grow into their body

 

[Three On Zero]

He just turned 26 halfway through this season, that's like the definition of a peak year for high scoring forwards.

Forwards typically peak at 25, defenceman around 27

 

[authentic]

At the start of the season, McDavid had scored 697 points, which put him tied for 253rd all-time. As of today, McDavid is up to 848 points, which ranks him 148th.

I noticed that McDavid could end up as the 100th player in NHL history to score 1,000 points. 95 players are already there. Then there are four players who are very close - Joe Pavelski is 1 point back, Claude Giroux is 2, Phil Kessel is 8, and John Tavares in 27. Assuming Kessel plays one more season, these four players with become the 96th, 97th, 98th and 99th players (in some order) to score 1,000 points.

Four of the active players ahead of McDavid are Perry (883 points), Toews (882), Parise (878) and Marchand (858). Of the first three players, McDavid should fly by them assuming no injuries (all of them will finish this season with under 40 points). Marchand is only ten points ahead of McDavid and, at age 34, looks to be slowing down.

The only other player who has a chance to get to 1,000 points ahead of McDavid is Blake Wheeler. I wouldn't have guessed, but he's already at 922. He's right around 0.8 PPG this year (but is 36 and looks to be slowing down). My guess is Wheeler won't reach 1,000 points until early in the 2024-25 season. Truthfully I wouldn't bet on McDavid reaching 1,000 points next season either, but I think he'll get there before Wheeler. So my prediction is McDavid will become the 100th player in NHL history to reach 1,000 points.

Then he'll become the 2nd player ever to reach 2000 points by the end of his career.

 

[independent observer]

He just turned 26 halfway through this season, that's like the definition of a peak year for high

No its not. Most top end offensive players have their peak year/years before age 25. I dont remember the exact breakdown but it has been posted many times on here by others. That having been said there are always lots of exceptions. Very large players usually peak later, same with skinny weaker players. It takes some guys time to grow into their body

The best scorers of my lifetime Crosby, Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr all peaked early… but maybe also depending on teammates (jagr‘s case), injuries (crosby), era (as we moved from high to low scoring) etc… and now we see the goal avgs increasing again…

 

[Ninety7]

One things for sure

He’s better than Crosby ever was at his peak.

 

[authentic]

No its not. Most top end offensive players have their peak year/years before age 25. I dont remember the exact breakdown but it has been posted many times on here by others. That having been said there are always lots of exceptions. Very large players usually peak later, same with skinny weaker players. It takes some guys time to grow into their body

A lot of those don't take into account scoring level increases and decreases. Malkin had his best statistical season at 25, Jagr at 28 relative to league scoring, Ovechkin 24, Crosby was not even the same player by 26 but yes he had his best seasons 25 and earlier. Gretzky's 25/26 year old season was actually his most dominant compared to the rest of the top scorers, Lemieux had his best performance arguably at 27. There's really nothing unusual about having a peak at 26 years old, and that's only considering offense here as well. Forsberg had his best season at 29, Sakic 31, Datsyuk 29 and 30, and last but not least there are more 28+ year old Art Ross winners in NHL history than there are under 25. Other than cases where scoring goes down or a player drops off a cliff like Ovechkin at 25 or from injuries or something like Bobby Orr or Crosby and Lindros.

 

[McVespa99]

The best scorers of my lifetime Crosby, Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr all peaked early… but maybe also depending on teammates (jagr‘s case), injuries (crosby), era (as we moved from high to low scoring) etc… and now we see the goal avgs increasing again…

Like I said. Most players peak before 25. Thats just a fact. The league is higher scoring this year but that doesnt make up the extra 20 goals and 30 points McDavid scored. That is partly higher scoring in general and partly improvements in his game

 

[authentic]

Forwards typically peak at 25, defenceman around 27

He was 25 for the first half of this season

 

[authentic]

The best scorers of my lifetime Crosby, Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr all peaked early… but maybe also depending on teammates (jagr‘s case), injuries (crosby), era (as we moved from high to low scoring) etc… and now we see the goal avgs increasing again…

They usually hit their peaks earlier, my only point was there's nothing unusual about a player having a peak season at 25/26, or even at 26, 27 or 28. Without injuries this is the literal physical peak of an athlete.

 

[wetcoast]

The only thing that would hurt modern players going back to play in previous era's would be injuries. Some of the career ending injuries in previous era's are no longer career enders with modern medicine.

Yet concussions probably reached their height during the clutch and grab and smoke them 90s.

There have always been injuries but today you have more collisions and hits at higher speeds with heavier bodies.

There is no science or objectivity in comparing the physicality of eras just observations.

 

[Dust]

Yet concussions probably reached their height during the clutch and grab and smoke them 90s.

There have always been injuries but today you have more collisions and hits at higher speeds with heavier bodies.

There is no science or objectivity in comparing the physicality of eras just observations.

I was thinking more along the lines of knee injuries. Would be interesting to see if Bobby Orr could have had a long and productive career if he had today's doctor's able to help with his knees.

 

[RiverbottomChuck]

I can see an argument to be made but a lot will still say Orr/Howe. I’m not sure I’d be one of them though, McDavid is pretty spectacular.

 

[Kingfan1967]

Orr changed the game (defensemen became more of an offensive force)

Wayne changed the game (teams started to set up offensive attacks from behind their own nets)

Howe has the name Mr. Hockey for a reason

Mario was an unstoppable force changeling the greatest player at the height of his career.

McDavid has a long way to go to equal them.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lemieux won b2b smythes with 78 points combined then proceeded to pace for 224 points winning the art ross while battling cancer. All in a three year span. McDavid will never touch that

 

[I am toxic]

Orr changed the game (defensemen became more of an offensive force)

Wayne changed the game (teams started to set up offensive attacks from behind their own nets)

Howe has the name Mr. Hockey for a reason

Mario was an unstoppable force changeling the greatest player at the height of his career.

McDavid has a long way to go to equal them.

And that is just to open up the debate.

Any chance of becoming the consensus #2 would have required McDavid to put up this kind of separation in his early twenties and maintain it throughout his twenties. And then win significantly more hardware than Lemieux, which is beyond unlikely.

Thread title is trolling. Nothing more, nothing less.

I love it.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

He did
In 20-21

Not sure some of you get how much the big boys dominated.

 

[wetcoast]

Lemieux won b2b smythes with 78 points combined then proceeded to pace for 224 points winning the art ross while battling cancer. All in a three year span. McDavid will never touch that

Your math is off by a bit as he never paced for 224 and maybe if everything went right in the remaining 22 games he missed he might have challenged Gretzky's 215 but even then not likely.


You also aren't taking into account scoring context for the playoffs, for instance in one of those playoff yes Brian Bellows and Dave Ganger had 29 and 27 points respectively.

That being said McDavid probably doesn't reach that absolute height but his prime will be longer and have many more games played.

 

[wetcoast]

And that is just to open up the debate.

Any chance of becoming the consensus #2 would have required McDavid to put up this kind of separation in his early twenties and maintain it throughout his twenties. And then win significantly more hardware than Lemieux, which is beyond unlikely.

Thread title is trolling. Nothing more, nothing less.

I love it.

More hardware than Mario?

He is only 1 Art Ross behind him and frankly I think he might win more than 2 or 3 more.
I know you are going to say Conn Smythe, Mario won those 2 at age 25 and 26 after a huge influx of talent in trades in a non cap era so let's wait and see before we get too excited here.

McDavid also won his first Art Ross 2 years younger than Mario did so perhaps before you go off spouting some sort of toxic metric you might want to do your homework here.

Not sure some of you get how much the big boys dominated.

Most of us get it but also the big boys ran up the score and played shootout games to win 8-6 defense be dammed too so one needs some context there.

 

[HurricaneFanatic]

The insane thing about Gretzky is, his peak was fairly short but it was extremely dominate and had he retired then he'd still be considered GOAT. Greatest goal scorer and playmaker during that time. After 30 he was still a great playmaker but declined rapidly in goal scoring. Then after 35 the goal scoring was all but gone but remained a decent playmaker.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Your math is off by a bit as he never paced for 224 and maybe if everything went right in the remaining 22 games he missed he might have challenged Gretzky's 215 but even then not likely.


You also aren't taking into account scoring context for the playoffs, for instance in one of those playoff yes Brian Bellows and Dave Ganger had 29 and 27 points respectively.

That being said McDavid probably doesn't reach that absolute height but his prime will be longer and have many more games played.

The 93 season was 84 game schedule. 2.67 ppg is 224 points. In 80 games it would have been 92 goals and 213 points. Gretzkys records were in jeopardy for sure if Mario played at least 80.

 

[wetcoast]

The 93 season was 84 game schedule. 2.67 ppg is 224 points. In 80 games it would have been 92 goals and 213 points. Gretzkys records were in jeopardy for sure if Mario played at least 80.

Even with 24 games maybe not as Mario played in 31 home games and 29 road games that season with a 16 point spread so you need to account for the 2 extra road games to make up nevermind the more games played BS.

Just for argument sake would 216 points in 84 games really be better than Wayne with 215 in 80 games played?

You would also need to look at which games he missed as b2b games just don't show up that season very much and the road games he missed might include more travel so it might change everything every so slightly to boot.

Man you are just reaching blindly here.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Even with 24 games maybe not as Mario played in 31 home games and 29 road games that season with a 16 point spread so you need to account for the 2 extra road games to make up nevermind the more games played BS.

Just for argument sake would 216 points in 84 games really be better than Wayne with 215 in 80 games played?

You would also need to look at which games he missed as b2b games just don't show up that season very much and the road games he missed might include more travel so it might change everything every so slightly to boot.

Man you are just reaching blindly here.

So Mario lemieux having 60 goals and 160 points in 60 games which is 92 and 213 points in 80 is me reaching blindly in saying Gretzkys 92 and 215 was in jeopardy? What do you think in 20 more games Mario was gonna score 15 points? They guy was gonna score between 210-220. Whether he hit 215 who knows but he 100 percent would have been close.

 

[Conbon]

Howe gets so underrated because he doesn't have video game numbers. Look at his lead over competition. His peak is right up there with Lemieux. Look at his 52-53 season. 49 goals, 2nd place (his linemate Lindsay) 32 and the closest non teammate at 30.