Sid aged like Yzerman. Adjusted his game to focus more on developing a strong two way game and being a consummate professional leader on and off the ice. Nurse would be held accountable more by Crosby than he is by McDavid for example.
Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaa
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He changed his regular season game from an end to end rush guy who battled like a maniac in the corners to a point-per-game, two way player who plays more on the peripheral. I believe for two reasons. One, longevity - if he kept going the way he was going, he'd have been out of the league via IRL in 2013. Two, he didn't need to play that way when the Pens won his second and third Cups. But they absolutely needed his leadership and determination.
His career path in the last several years has been startlingly reminiscent of his hero, Steve Yzerman's path. I compare his career to Yzerman's for reference when looking at his season-to-season performance.
To me, the fact that he reivented himself and is still a ppg player with his injury history is a PART of his greatness as a player. He is currently 14th in league scoring, on pace for 98 points this year. When Yzerman was the same age, he scored 79, but in subsequent years he declined rather rapidly as an offensive player. I don't see Sid doing that. I think he will be a ppg player until he retires, but I could be wrong.
Wow. Great minds think alike haha...while I was typing you wrote this...
Someone claimed Lemieux was a better stickhandler and not just on a relative basis. He was simply not though.
I'd also say that's pretty debatable given how fast he can stickhandle while maintaining perfect control at faster speeds than anyone else. The faster you go the harder it is to stickhandle like that.
Fair point, but I would argue that this is more describing his ability to skate with the puck, not necessarily his stick handling abilities.
McDavid rarely uses his stick handling to beat a defender or goalie, or take them out of position. When I think of someone who is a good stick handler I think of someone like Kovalev that consistently relied on their stick handling to generate plays.
Video Nasty
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I understand. I’m a big believer that the best of the best would thrive in any era. The game certainly is different than in Howe’s day, but I don’t see why he or anyone else who has been among the very best to ever play wouldn’t adjust in these impossible exercises.
While adjusted stats can be an okay starting point to try to grasp how players across time compare to each other, they tend to ignore these massive scoring race wins that Gretzky in particular put up and even Howe’s run I just outlined.
If his 1952-1953 campaign pro-rates to 57 goals and 111 points in 82 games with no adjustments whatsoever, with the same huge margin of victory in a scoring environment of less than 5 goals in a game combined, I struggle to see how that doesn’t translate to a minimum of 70 goals and 150 points today.
If he’s scoring 44 goals and 103 points in 76 games at age 40 in a scoring environment that’s pretty much identical to 2017-2018 when McDavid won his 2nd Art Ross with 108 points over Giroux who had 102 points and Kucherov who was the only other who cracked 100, it doesn’t take much imagination to consider what a version of Howe 15-20 years younger could do.
If he’s scoring 15 goals/41 points in 80 games at age 51 during Gretzky’s rookie season, why wouldn’t he be a lock for at least 60/150 that year if he’s 30 years younger?
I think the benefit of the doubt has to be given since it’s something we simply can’t prove. This guy is ultimately one of the most decorated players ever, without retro Rockets and retro Pearson/Lindsays factored in. Why wouldn’t his dominance translate?
When I see people crow and shake their heads about him winning “only” 6 Art Rosses in his long career, I don’t really understand the pushback. He played 9 seasons in the NHL from age 35 onwards and one of them was at age 51 after spending 6 years still playing in the WHA. He won them during the traditional prime years at ages 22-25 and then added two at 28 and 34 for good measure.
Video Nasty
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A couple of things I wanted to note about this loose comparison to Yzerman is that his decline was surely due to getting right knee surgery and missing 26 of the first 28 games (played a couple of games to start the season and then missed two months) in 2000-2001 at age 35 and still returned to essentially be a PPG player over his next 100 games.
I believe re-aggravating his knee and an ankle injury also caused him to miss another 30 games in 2001-2002.
Then he misses 66 games in 2002-2003 after getting, surprise surprise, another knee surgery.
This is all while the league scoring environment was sliding into the depths of the DPE.
Crosby is enjoying the benefits of a league trending up in scoring as he ages (which is great, it helps balance out some of the years he spent with it being a bit lower than it is now).
I give Crosby a ton of credit for remaining virtually injury free over the past 10 seasons. By the conclusion of 2012-2013, I couldn’t have predicted that he would go on to play about 90% of the games on the schedule going forward.
But Yzerman’s decline was for a very specific reason and I think it’s a bit unfair to both players to line them up side by side to draw any conclusions on how Crosby may finish aging out. One guy has enjoyed good health for a decade after scares in his mid 20 years and the other was getting his knees cut open and experimented on 20-25 years ago in the twilight years of his career.
Just watched the 91 SC final. It was like watching in slow motion compared to watching McDavid today
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I remember thinking that about Lindros. Then injuries happen. A little early for a victory lap.
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One guy has a ton of regular season hardware and on top of that 3 cups 2 smythes and another finals run while being the leading scorer of the playoffs. Also a golden goal and a best on best mvp in the world cup. While the other gets swept every season. Jheez I wonder why
Lemieux and Orr were both quitters. They lacked the durability skill (Crosby was also close to being a quitter, but recovered).
If McDavid plays a mainly healthy career from here out, and doesn't quit, he's automatically better than both of them.
My worst,
MJ
If McDavid plays a mainly healthy career from here out, and doesn't quit, he's automatically better than both of them.
My worst,
MJ
Dieseloil
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Ya, Mario could move, watched a lot of NHL live in the ‘80s, he was so smooth and fast, with vision and hands. People make way too much of equipment differences. Goalies on average were tiny compared to the giants they have now, and most defenders weren’t great skaters like now. Mario would be lethal nowadays however.
Dieseloil
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Hockey was in slow motion in the 50’s and 60’s, watch video of Orr, the players he played against were horribly slow. Is what it is.
The big difference is where both guys were at after 8 seasons (this being McDavid's 8th season with a dominant ART ross and Hart being added).
As junior prospects sure but basically after their first 2 seasons McDavid was ahead and has been widening the gap ever since.
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Btw. I'm coming to the conclusion that McDavid can have Lemieux-like career statistically, with worse perception of such:
Best Lemieux's seasons in terms of adjusted scoring:
3x Hart, 6x Art. Ross, 4x Lindsay, 2x Conn Smythe Trophy, 1540 adjusted points
He won 2x Hart, 2x Lindsay, Conn Smythe, 4x Art Ross after his 26th birthday.
Best McDavid's seasons in terms of adjusted scoring:
If he stays healthy this year:
3x Hart, 5x Art Ross, 4x Lindsay, ~960 adjusted points
If he gets Crosby-like post-26yo latter part of a career, he will finish with 4x Hart, 6x Art Ross, 5x Lindsay, some team success and ~2k adjusted points. And this is not that surrealistic expectation, maybe he'll get more individual hardware with less team success, we'll see.
Obviously, Lemieux will always get benefit of a doubt due to injuries (even in those adjusted seasons, many times he missed 10-20 games, what makes his stats totally out of the world) and losing couple of Harts to Gretzky, so he'll be ranked higher, but it may be an interesting convo once McDavid retires. Basically better peak vs better longevity what may not put McDavid ahead of Lemieux, but certainly solidify his position as top5 player ever a tier ahead of guys from 5- spots.
Best Lemieux's seasons in terms of adjusted scoring:
3x Hart, 6x Art. Ross, 4x Lindsay, 2x Conn Smythe Trophy, 1540 adjusted points
He won 2x Hart, 2x Lindsay, Conn Smythe, 4x Art Ross after his 26th birthday.
Best McDavid's seasons in terms of adjusted scoring:
If he stays healthy this year:
3x Hart, 5x Art Ross, 4x Lindsay, ~960 adjusted points
If he gets Crosby-like post-26yo latter part of a career, he will finish with 4x Hart, 6x Art Ross, 5x Lindsay, some team success and ~2k adjusted points. And this is not that surrealistic expectation, maybe he'll get more individual hardware with less team success, we'll see.
Obviously, Lemieux will always get benefit of a doubt due to injuries (even in those adjusted seasons, many times he missed 10-20 games, what makes his stats totally out of the world) and losing couple of Harts to Gretzky, so he'll be ranked higher, but it may be an interesting convo once McDavid retires. Basically better peak vs better longevity what may not put McDavid ahead of Lemieux, but certainly solidify his position as top5 player ever a tier ahead of guys from 5- spots.
He needs to win at least a couple of cups to be considered top 5.
HFpapi
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Connor now needs 35 points in 19 games to have the highest scoring non-Greztky/Lemieux season in NHL history. (All of their best seasons of course coming in the 80's/early 90's).
If McDavid played in a league against only Canadians the way Howe did, he'd be 44 points up on the next highest scorer (for those who want to talk about Howe's superior Art Ross margins).
His 5th scoring title and 3rd MVP are basically in the bag now in only his 8th season in the league and at just 26 years old.
"No chance" at even passing Howe for 4th some of you say? Won't even pass Crosby (who I love btw) for 5th some of you say?
4th best is almost a given at this point and 2nd best is very much in play.
If McDavid played in a league against only Canadians the way Howe did, he'd be 44 points up on the next highest scorer (for those who want to talk about Howe's superior Art Ross margins).
His 5th scoring title and 3rd MVP are basically in the bag now in only his 8th season in the league and at just 26 years old.
"No chance" at even passing Howe for 4th some of you say? Won't even pass Crosby (who I love btw) for 5th some of you say?
4th best is almost a given at this point and 2nd best is very much in play.
HFpapi
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For record, Lemieux & Crosby would both make my top 5 personal fav players of all-time list but colour me shocked that a Pens fan doesn't want to give McDavid his due and acknowledge what we are witnessing.
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