Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[wasunder]

I am Camp #3.

I differentiate "most skilled" and "greatest ever".

McDavid is the most skilled player to ever live. No player in history has ever combined his speed and puck handling, and him getting to 150 points in this era with the goaltending, training and coaching in place may be an unparalleled feat.

As for him being "the greatest ever", I think we have to judge a player by what they accomplished in their era. Max Domi is more skilled than Gordie Howe was and Domie plays against Russians, Swedes etc, but does that mean Max Domi>Gordie Howe? No way.

The problem with this thread is that people can't separate the two concepts.

I completely agree. It’s almost futile to compare skill head to head across generations. Players are getting better(although not as much as some like to believe), and the style of the game has changes so much

 

[jcs0218]

You guys never saw Rocky IV?

I did. I can recite that movie word-for-word.

"Whatever he hits, he destroys".

Unfortunately, Drago's advanced training and nutrition and 2150 psi punch ultimately failed him when going up against the Italian Stallion.

Balboa was like a "piece of iron". Drago even admitted to this while in his corner. Balboa also had a burning heart and strong desire, as stated by the movie's theme song.

 

[JayDog16]

He'll go down as the best player of all-time. It doesn't even matter if he breaks all the records or not. For years I kept saying to myself Gretzky and Lemieux were better but he's getting close. The thing is he is better. What he's doing against world class athletes who are coached and trained at a level far superior to what we saw in the 80s and 90s is absolutely unbelievable.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, Edmonton has done a terrible job building a team around him. Also, it's impossible these days to build stacked teams the way you could back in the day.

I'll leave it at that. Just my opinion. But I'm more impressed with McDavid than I was watching Gretzky and Lemieux and that's saying a lot.

 

[authentic]

The misconception that McDavid is a meathead who just happens to skate fast needs to die. (Not saying you said that but I see it implied on this forum).

His vision and ability to read the game at high speed is second to none. He has some of the best hands in the game. He has a laser shot and it's getting better every season. Plus, let's be honest, he feasts on the PP and you can feast on the PP deep into your 30's. We thought Ovi would suck when he couldn't power down the wing and score off the rush.

Lastly, McDavid is 26. Even if he's a scrub without his speed, he has 6-7 more years with it.

Mike Gartner had the fastest skater record at 36 that stood until the last decade. McDavid's stamina will decline before his speed does, and I going to be honest here I think he ages better than Crosby or whoever else.

 

[Shareefruck]

As someone who didn't watch him play, I'm a little confused by the Howe thing. His longevity and fitness was insane for sure, but why do people think his peak would still be one of the top 5 best players of the game if he played today?

If his peak was only around 100 points in his era, but usually hovering around 70-80, what numbers do people expect if he hypothetically played today with modern training? And is his all around game really good enough to make up the difference in a way that other insanely well-rounded/complete/Selke-level, but more modestly-producing players don't?

Genuinely curious. (from what I've heard and how the numbers look, what I'm picturing is more of a peak Rod Brind'Amour type of player in modern times)

 

[Svencouver]

Wow I dunno….all respect to McDavid….but for me there’s some extra artistry and magic in a lot of those Mario highlights….he’s absurdly long, and silky smooth where as McD is like a knife slicing into openings with killer precision. I think Mario would destroy today’s NHL where players are more protected and unobstructed. Level Tage Thompson’s skill level up by 100% lol….that might be Mario today.

I mean, he's literally the perfect hockey player. He's maxed out on every stat. And somehow, Gretzky was still better, which says a lot about Wayne

 

[authentic]

Your point is valid and I admit my post that you quoted was taking the piss a little bit.

My own favorite calculation to make the point that you're making is to point out that an old and broken down Mario Lemieux was leading the league in scoring for 3/4 of the year in 2002/03 until he got hurt and still finished 8th with 91 points in 67 games. That season Joe Thornton scored 101 points, the same Joe Thornton who scored 125 points in Crosby/Ovis' rookie year.

So yes, if you do that kind of math, the players of old aren't scrubs. But, I want to start eroding the arguments for Howe over McDavid.

Eye test? Nope
Quality of competition? Nope
Raw totals? Nope
Achievements? I mean, for now but 5 scoring titles in 8 years vs 6 in 17?

I hate the protective barrier around Howe that prevents him from being challenged by McDavid when we know damn well we are witnessing something more special than anything that happened in the 1950s.

Honestly you're right on the money with this one.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

As someone who didn't watch him play, I'm a little confused by the Howe thing. His longevity and fitness was insane for sure, but why do people think his peak would still be one of the top 5 best players of the game if he played today?

If his peak was only around 100 points in his era, but usually hovering around 70-80, what numbers do people expect if he hypothetically played today with modern training? And is his all around game really good enough to make up the difference in a way that other insanely well-rounded/complete/Selke-level, but more modestly-producing players don't?

Genuinely curious. (from what I've heard and how the numbers look, what I'm picturing is more of a peak Rod Brind'Amour type of player in modern times)

I have vague memories of watching him play, but he was way past his prime. I watch a lot of classic games and I LOVE the history of the game, so I'll bite.

Gordie wasn't a gym guy. He was farm tough, cold weather tough, and determined. Hard as a piece of iron. I met him once when he was in his 60s and his handshake felt inhuman, like putting your hand in a vice. Funny thing, though, he was a lot shorter than I expected. He was listed at slightly over 6 feet, but I'd say he was 5'10'. But a powerful, powerful man with a neck like a tree trunk.

He did not strike me as an overly intelligent man (i don't mean that in a cruel way, he was just not overly articulate), but he was older so he may have been in cognitive decline. But on the ice he had great hockey sense, and coupled with an unprecedented level of grit and determination, he went through people. He played as long as he did simply because he wanted to. He defied normal human physical decline.

Most people that talk about Gordie explain his greatness in those terms, not in his pure goal scoring or puck handling ability. Different time, different game, but he was the hardest man in an era of hard men, which made him legendary.

 

[Video Nasty]

As someone who didn't watch him play, I'm a little confused by the Howe thing. His longevity and fitness was insane for sure, but why do people think his peak would still be one of the top 5 best players of the game if he played today?

If his peak was only around 100 points in his era, but usually hovering around 70-80, what numbers do people expect if he hypothetically played today with modern training? And is his all around game really good enough to make up the difference in a way that other insanely well-rounded/complete/Selke-level, but more modestly-producing players don't?

Genuinely curious. (from what I've heard and how the numbers look, what I'm picturing is more of a peak Rod Brind'Amour type of player in modern times)

First off, Howe played in 70 game seasons during his peak and some of his prime years were in some of the lowest scoring seasons in league history. He won 4 Art Rosses in a row and 3 Retro Rockets in a row during those first 3 Art Rosses. There was no Pearson/Lindsay, but he likely wins at least 2 to go with his 2 Harts (all of this is from 1950-1951 through 1953-1954; his age 22-25 seasons). Wins more retro Rockets, Art Rosses, and Harts at age 28 and age 34 to continue his high level of longevity. Was a Hart finalist 12 times.

One season he scored 49 goals and 95 points in 70 games when the league average was 2.40 GPG and the runner ups in both categories was his own linemate who had 32 goals and 71 points. There was only one other 30 goal and 60 point scorer which gives him the largest scoring race victory in terms of percentage outside Gretzky. That’s a 53.1% win in goals and 33.8% in points. Closest non-teammate was behind 63.3% in goals and 55.7% in points.

During this Art Ross run, he won by margins 30.3%, 24.6%, and 20.9%, again, some of the biggest victories other than Gretzky.

His seasons at age 40 in 1968-1969 and age 51 in 1979-1980 also give unique clear examples why a prime peak Howe would dominate regardless of era.

Most just see he played a long time and held the goals and points record until Gretzky broke them and call it a day without digging into the context of his career.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Mike Gartner had the fastest skater record at 36 that stood until the last decade. McDavid's stamina will decline before his speed does, and I going to be honest here I think he ages better than Crosby or whoever else.

Tbh he's already aging better than Crosby. Sid's age 26 season was 13/14. And while he won the Hart/Ross that year, I thought he looked a step below where he did the 4 previous seasons. He just had enough room to fall off a bit and still be the best in the league. No way in hell McDavid loses the Ross next year at 27 like Crosby did. Honestly I don't get all the hype around how Sid has aged, he's done well but he was done contending for the Hart/Art Ross after 16/17 at 29.

 

[MessierII]

Tbh he's already aging better than Crosby. Sid's age 26 season was 13/14. And while he won the Hart/Ross that year, I thought he looked a step below where he did the 4 previous seasons. He just had enough room to fall off a bit and still be the best in the league. No way in hell McDavid loses the Ross next year at 27 like Crosby did. Honestly I don't get all the hype around how Sid has aged, he's done well but he was done contending for the Hart/Art Ross after 16/17 at 29.

Fast guys age great. Look at selanne. Even mediocre ones like chimera, Cullen.

 

[authentic]

Tbh he's already aging better than Crosby. Sid's age 26 season was 13/14. And while he won the Hart/Ross that year, I thought he looked a step below where he did the 4 previous seasons. He just had enough room to fall off a bit and still be the best in the league. No way in hell McDavid loses the Ross next year at 27 like Crosby did. Honestly I don't get all the hype around how Sid has aged, he's done well but he was done contending for the Hart/Art Ross after 16/17 at 29.

Well I guess the hype for how he's aged is being tied with Gretzky for the most point per game seasons with 18, and actually the only player above a point per game for 18 seasons as Gretzky had exactly 48 in 48 one year.

What McDavid is doing right now combined with last years playoffs is something else though, even if it never gets repeated. It's an all time great level of play that surpasses anyone but Lemieux, Gretzky and Orr.

 

[Johnny Tomala]

Tbh he's already aging better than Crosby. Sid's age 26 season was 13/14. And while he won the Hart/Ross that year, I thought he looked a step below where he did the 4 previous seasons. He just had enough room to fall off a bit and still be the best in the league. No way in hell McDavid loses the Ross next year at 27 like Crosby did. Honestly I don't get all the hype around how Sid has aged, he's done well but he was done contending for the Hart/Art Ross after 16/17 at 29.

Yup. Crosby never dominated the league like McDavid is doing it right now. Crosby only 2 Art Ross Trophies are not impressive at all.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Yup. Crosby never dominated the league like McDavid is doing it right now. Crosby only 2 Art Ross Trophies are not impressive at all.

Well I mean I'm not going to go that far. He's still an all time great. Simply counting trophies when he dealt with the injuries he did is being dishonest. Imagine if McDavid missed out on these last 3 seasons.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

Even if he doesn't get there, he's worthy of being in the running and that's incredible considering how good the average NHLer is now.

McDavid is a special talent. If he wins a cup or two, he will sit right alongside the legends.

 

[cupface52]

In terms of playing ability comparative to peers, with quality of competition taken into account.

Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr
McDavid
Howe/Jagr/Esposito(?)
Crosby/Mikita/Lafleur/?

 

[EichHart]

I watch him play and think he’s the most talented player to ever play in the NHL. The things he does I didn’t even think were possible.

 

[snag]

Well I mean I'm not going to go that far. He's still an all time great. Simply counting trophies when he dealt with the injuries he did is being dishonest. Imagine if McDavid missed out on these last 3 seasons.

True about Sid.

McDavid is also a freak... In the good way I mean look at that knee injury he came back from as fast as he came back from amazingly without surgery and without skipping a beat or losing a step. Even his clavicle he came back from as fast as he did.

The guy is gifted in more ways than one that's for sure.

 

[Ivo]

Five 2-goal games in a row, 16 points in that span. I think this season he is having is quite comparable to Gretzky/Lemieux offensive production. I don’t think he will be unanymously n.2, but he is good enough to make it a big-5 instead of big-4. Hopefully he wins at least one Cup, to take that argument away from his detractors. Not this year, though.

 

[Shareefruck]

First off, Howe played in 70 game seasons during his peak and some of his prime years were in some of the lowest scoring seasons in league history. He won 4 Art Rosses in a row and 3 Retro Rockets in a row during those first 3 Art Rosses. There was no Pearson/Lindsay, but he likely wins at least 2 to go with his 2 Harts (all of this is from 1950-1951 through 1953-1954; his age 22-25 seasons). Wins more retro Rockets, Art Rosses, and Harts at age 28 and age 34 to continue his high level of longevity. Was a Hart finalist 12 times.

One season he scored 49 goals and 95 points in 70 games when the league average was 2.40 GPG and the runner ups in both categories was his own linemate who had 32 goals and 71 points. There was only one other 30 goal and 60 point scorer which gives him the largest scoring race victory in terms of percentage outside Gretzky. That’s a 53.1% win in goals and 33.8% in points. Closest non-teammate was behind 63.3% in goals and 55.7% in points.

During this Art Ross run, he won by margins 30.3%, 24.6%, and 20.9%, again, some of the biggest victories other than Gretzky.

His seasons at age 40 in 1968-1969 and age 51 in 1979-1980 also give unique clear examples why a prime peak Howe would dominate regardless of era.

Most just see he played a long time and held the goals and points record until Gretzky broke them and call it a day without digging into the context of his career.

Thanks for the info. So if you were to project him as a modern player, how would you describe him/what his production/effectiveness would be?

To be clear, I was asking for that context, not being set in any conclusions.

 

[IafrateOvie34]

I have vague memories of watching him play, but he was way past his prime. I watch a lot of classic games and I LOVE the history of the game, so I'll bite.

Gordie wasn't a gym guy. He was farm tough, cold weather tough, and determined. Hard as a piece of iron. I met him once when he was in his 60s and his handshake felt inhuman, like putting your hand in a vice. Funny thing, though, he was a lot shorter than I expected. He was listed at slightly over 6 feet, but I'd say he was 5'10'. But a powerful, powerful man with a neck like a tree trunk.

He did not strike me as an overly intelligent man (i don't mean that in a cruel way, he was just not overly articulate), but he was older so he may have been in cognitive decline. But on the ice he had great hockey sense, and coupled with an unprecedented level of grit and determination, he went through people. He played as long as he did simply because he wanted to. He defied normal human physical decline.

Most people that talk about Gordie explain his greatness in those terms, not in his pure goal scoring or puck handling ability. Different time, different game, but he was the hardest man in an era of hard men, which made him legendary.

Great description.

 

[dalewood12]

I'm a Pens fan so I can't say anyone will get ahead of 66 or 99. But I think 3rd is not off the table.

 

[Nostradumbass]

He’s up there, but if you want to see how truly gifted Gretzky was take a look at his stats prior to NHL

Kid had 517 points in 85 games in atom lmfao now that’s talent

That’s not overly impressive, I could score 517 points in 85 games in Atom. I’m also 28, but that’s besides the point.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

First off, Howe played in 70 game seasons during his peak and some of his prime years were in some of the lowest scoring seasons in league history. He won 4 Art Rosses in a row and 3 Retro Rockets in a row during those first 3 Art Rosses. There was no Pearson/Lindsay, but he likely wins at least 2 to go with his 2 Harts (all of this is from 1950-1951 through 1953-1954; his age 22-25 seasons). Wins more retro Rockets, Art Rosses, and Harts at age 28 and age 34 to continue his high level of longevity. Was a Hart finalist 12 times.

One season he scored 49 goals and 95 points in 70 games when the league average was 2.40 GPG and the runner ups in both categories was his own linemate who had 32 goals and 71 points. There was only one other 30 goal and 60 point scorer which gives him the largest scoring race victory in terms of percentage outside Gretzky. That’s a 53.1% win in goals and 33.8% in points. Closest non-teammate was behind 63.3% in goals and 55.7% in points.

During this Art Ross run, he won by margins 30.3%, 24.6%, and 20.9%, again, some of the biggest victories other than Gretzky.

His seasons at age 40 in 1968-1969 and age 51 in 1979-1980 also give unique clear examples why a prime peak Howe would dominate regardless of era.

Most just see he played a long time and held the goals and points record until Gretzky broke them and call it a day without digging into the context of his career.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

So in what way was Lemieux a better stickhandler really? He maybe had the softest hands but his actual stickhandling ability was not on McDavid's current level, no one's was before composite sticks.

I mean McDavid can’t stick handle on Kane or Kovalev’s level, so I feel this whole stick handling argument is getting into the weeds to prop one above the other.