Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[DJJones]

I'll say hes on pace for 4th.

Have to up his game and/or win some cups if he wants higher.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

The 80s looks like pond hockey compared to today's game. Send this version of McDavid to the 80s and he would decimate the records

Send the current version of Ryan McLeod back to the 80's and he'd score a ton too. Not fair to take current skill and technology and drop it back in to the 80's.

 

[Canovin]

Send the current version of Ryan McLeod back to the 80's and he'd score a ton too. Not fair to take current skill and technology and drop it back in to the 80's.

But why do we continue to ignore the fact that skill level now is much higher than it was in the 80s? It's ignoring facts.

 

[LuckyPierre]

Hey I firmly believe Lemieux was the best player ever. I just don't think you can straight up say "Lemieux was a better stickhandler than McDavid" when talking about actual skill level. If McDavid went back in time with all the skills he has now he would very clearly be a better player than Lemieux. Lemieux is the only player in history I feel comfortable saying could outscore McDavid with todays advantages.

It's subjective, sure, but allow me to walk you through my thought process.

McDavid is supremely gifted, but in spite of his highlight reel, I'm not convinced he has the best hands ever. His differentiator is his feet, and the hands/feet sync. He is a far superior skater than the pack, and he knows exactly how to exploit the space he generates. He's perhaps the greatest at driving wide, cutting around defenders, and finishing. Mind you, he will cross over defenders or triangle them at will, absolutely. He can do it all.

Now, in my opinion, Bure's hands were equally in sync with his feet. He was must watch TV in the 90s. As a winger, he was less of a distributor, and for a significant portion of his career, he didn't have a Draisaitl on his line. The two line pass, and the dead puck culture dragged down his creativity and productivity. Factor in blown knees, and you have a guy who underperformed relative to his potential ceiling. But visually, Bure was doing McDavid like things to his peers every night, and lapping the field in goals in a low scoring era.

With that said, Bure played against Lemieux for much of his career. Lemieux was aging through the 90s, and yet sustained all-time prime production because he could do things with the puck that nobody could do. Not even Bure. He would beat defenses every way imaginable without necessarily out skating them. He, and specifically his hands, were simply on another level. I believe that to be the case relative to McDavid as well. Time will tell.

 

[TheAngryHank]

You he to admit is was easier winning championships in a pre-cap, 6 to 21 team league. When Gordie played it was a 6 team league, and 2 of those teams were terrible every year. He basically had a 1/4 chance every year.

Put McDavid in the semifinals every year for a decade. My guess is he would win multiple championships as well.

Gretzky played with half a dozen other HOFers. That team would cost $200 million today. Same with Mario - Jagr, Francis, Trottier, Coffey, Murphy, Recchi, Stevens, Mullen, Ulfie...

McDavid has Draisaitl, two less than average goalies and Nurse.

Their best seasons were also before the iron curtain.

 

[authentic]

I was talking about stickhandling specifically. I think Lemieux was better at it and was a better goal scorer also. Regarding overall skills of skating, puck handling and shooting, you may be right. I’ve never considered McDavid as one of the best shooters though.

Well, I don't know man. I think you have a case that he would be a better stickhandler today, but no one including Lemieux was stickhandling as good as current players back then. It just wasn't possible with the stick technology of the day.



These are just his goals this season. Better than any other players highlight reel, peak, prime or career IMO. Including Lemieux, Crosby, Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Forsberg, Malkin or whoever. Literally every other goal is just an insane display of skating and stickhandling with some laser shots as well.



Probably the best highlight reel of Lemieux, many amazing goals in here, but a lot of these clips are actually sped up a bit and he still clearly doesn't stickhandle as fast as McDavid.

 

[eojsmada]

Won't even be top 10 if he never wins a Cup. So I'll hold off on his "legacy" until he actually has a legacy.

 

[authentic]

It's subjective, sure, but allow me to walk you through my thought process.

McDavid is supremely gifted, but in spite of his highlight reel, I'm not convinced he has the best hands ever. His differentiator is his feet, and the hands/feet sync. He is a far superior skater than the pack, and he knows exactly how to exploit the space he generates. He's perhaps the greatest at driving wide, cutting around defenders, and finishing. Mind you, he will cross over defenders or triangle them at will, absolutely. He can do it all.

Now, in my opinion, Bure's hands were equally in sync with his feet. He was must watch TV in the 90s. As a winger, he was less of a distributor, and for a significant portion of his career, he didn't have a Draisaitl on his line. The two line pass, and the dead puck culture dragged down his creativity and productivity. Factor in blown knees, and you have a guy who underperformed relative to his potential ceiling. But visually, Bure was doing McDavid like things to his peers every night, and lapping the field in goals in a low scoring era.

With that said, Bure played against Lemieux for much of his career. Lemieux was aging through the 90s, and yet sustained all-time prime production because he could do things with the puck that nobody could do. Not even Bure. He would beat defenses every way imaginable without necessarily out skating them. He, and specifically his hands, were simply on another level. I believe that to be the case relative to McDavid as well. Time will tell.

He was one of the best stickhandlers for sure. His reach, size and strength definitely played a part along with his overall hockey IQ. Not many players ever had the subtle fakes and deception he had with his dekes and shots. Patience, anticipation and vision were also Gretzky like.

My point is there were people back in the day who had better pure stickhandling ability like Kovalev. In just about every skill imaginable McDavid has Lemieux beat in a straight up comparison. Even Lemieux's reach advantage would be negated by McDavid's combination of speed, agility and reach driving wide. He's basically a hybrid of Kane and Bure with more size and reach. He's also an even better skater than Bure was.

That's all my point is, no one has ever been a straight up more skilled player than McDavid but I happen to think Lemieux would be if he grew up in this era.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I have him 3rd most talented on my list…but I’m more interested to see how his game translates when he eventually loses a step. If he stays healthy, he should continue to dominate….for now, sit back and see if he can win a Cup….

 

[TheAngryHank]

He was one of the best stickhandlers for sure. His reach, size and strength definitely played a part along with his overall hockey IQ. Not many players ever had the subtle fakes and deception he had with his dekes and shots. My point is there were people back in the day who had better pure stickhandling ability like Kovalev. In just about every skill imaginable McDavid has Lemieux beat in a straight up comparison. Even Lemieux's reach advantage would be negated by McDavid's combination of speed, agility and reach driving wide. That's all my point is, no one has ever been a straight up more skilled player than McDavid but I happen to think Lemieux would be if he grew up in this era.

I think Dats is the only other player who's eyes and mind moved as fast as McD ,obviouslly his legs didn't. Mario being way up there and Mario was his era version of McD. Mario and Gretz took full advantage of skill gaps like Dats and McD but the modern skill gap is much smaller.

I have him 3rd most talented on my list…but I’m more interested to see how his game translates when he eventually loses a step. If he stays healthy, he should continue to dominate….for now, sit back and see if he can win a Cup….

i'm pictureing Datysuk like player.

 

[Neutrinos]

Scoring 45+ goals for 12 seasons (likely 13 this year), 200 plus hits a year, Stanley Cup Champion, 2nd all time goal scorer. That doesn't qualify as generational talent? I'd be curious what constitutes as a generational talent in your opinion.

Ovechkin is the Kobe Bryant of hockey

He scored more than anyone else because he shot way, way more than anyone else, but his overall impact/value to his team over the majority of his career hasn't been at a level that warrants consideration as a generational talent

He has just 1 Art Ross, and while he did lead the league in points-per-game 3x, in 2 of those seasons he was only .01 points ahead. Crosby in '08, and then Malkin in '09

In 2010, Ovechkin set his career high in points-per-game with 1.51, which finished 1st in the league ahead of Henrik Sedin's mark of 1.37

Malkin, Kane, and Kucherov all lead the league by at least .20 during their career years, so shouldn't a generational player be able to out-produce Henrik Sedin by more than .14 PPG?

Crosby has seasons where he lead the league by .31, .34, .23


From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons

Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that age range:

From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102

From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129

From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220

From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149

From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139

From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135

It just doesn't make sense that a generational talent would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-


Being one of the best HR hitters of all-time doesn't mean one is automatically one of the best players ever

The same rationale applies to goal scoring in hockey...

Ovechkin may be a generational scorer, but he's no generational player


PS
Stanley Cup Champion has zero bearing on whether a player qualifies as "generational"

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Well, I don't know man. I think you have a case that he would be a better stickhandler today, but no one including Lemieux was stickhandling as good as current players back then. It just wasn't possible with the stick technology of the day.



These are just his goals this season. Better than any other players highlight reel, peak, prime or career IMO. Including Lemieux, Crosby, Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Forsberg, Malkin or whoever. Literally every other goal is just an insane display of skating and stickhandling with some laser shots as well.



Probably the best highlight reel of Lemieux, many amazing goals in here, but a lot of these clips are actually sped up a bit and he still clearly doesn't stickhandle as fast as McDavid.

Wow I dunno….all respect to McDavid….but for me there’s some extra artistry and magic in a lot of those Mario highlights….he’s absurdly long, and silky smooth where as McD is like a knife slicing into openings with killer precision. I think Mario would destroy today’s NHL where players are more protected and unobstructed. Level Tage Thompson’s skill level up by 100% lol….that might be Mario today.

 

[authentic]

I think Dats is the only other player who's eyes and mind moved as fast as McD ,obviouslly his legs didn't. Mario being way up there and Mario was his era version of McD. Mario and Gretz took full advantage of skill gaps like Dats and McD but the modern skill gap is much smaller.


i'm pictureing Datysuk like player.

I have him 3rd most talented on my list…but I’m more interested to see how his game translates when he eventually loses a step. If he stays healthy, he should continue to dominate….for now, sit back and see if he can win a Cup….

See Gartner and Fedorov skate in their late thirties? Even Bure after all those knee injuries could still fly. I don't see how McDavid slows down to the point where he wouldn't still be the best skater in the league. McDavid losing a step would still be the best player in the NHL, guess we'll see how Bedard manages in the next decade.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Ovechkin is the Kobe Bryant of hockey

He scored more than anyone else because he shot way, way more than anyone else, but his overall impact/value to his team over the majority of his career hasn't been at a level that warrants consideration as a generational talent

He has just 1 Art Ross, and while he did lead the league points-per-game 3x, in 2 of those seasons he was only .01 points ahead. Crosby in '08, and then Malkin in '09

In 2010, Ovechkin set his career high in points-per-game with 1.51, which finished 1st in the league ahead of Henrik Sedin's mark of 1.37

Malkin, Kane, and Kucherov all lead the league by at least .20 during their career years, so shouldn't a generational/top 10 player be able to out-produce Henrik Sedin by more than .14 PPG?

Crosby has seasons where he lead the league by .31, .34, .23


From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons

Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that age range:

From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102

From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129

From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220

From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149

From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139

From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135

It just doesn't make sense that a generational talent would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-


Being one of the best HR hitters of all-time doesn't mean one is automatically one of the best players ever

The same rationale applies to goal scoring in hockey...

Ovechkin may be a generational scorer, but he's no generational player


PS
Stanley Cup Champion has zero bearing on whether a player qualifies as "generational"

Mmmm….no disagree….what makes him one of the best is he’s probably going to end up at the best at the most important skill to win games. You say he shoots more…..damn straight….but don‘t dismiss that like any other NHLer could just shoot more. Getting off his shot and the combination of heaviness and ruthless accuracy are part of what make him great. Nobody has had that over this length of career.

 

[TheAngryHank]

Wow I dunno….all respect to McDavid….but for me there’s some extra artistry and magic in a lot of those Mario highlights….he’s absurdly long, and silky smooth where as McD is like a knife slicing into openings with killer precision. I think Mario would destroy today’s NHL where players are more protected and unobstructed. Level Tage Thompson’s skill level up by 100% lol….that might be Mario today.

Mario was sneaky fast , Like a C4A taking off on a runway , you think there is no was it's going fast enough to take off. He was so big he never looked fast but dude had wheels and could glide forever.

 

[Phil68]

After Gretzky Lemieux is the greatest player from general consensus Hockey World period... Hell some consider Lemieux better than Gretzky..

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Mario was sneaky fast , Like a C4A taking off on a runway , you think there is no was it's going fast enough to take off. He was so big he never looked fast but dude had wheels and could glide forever.

Totally sneaky fast….so big it was deceiving….

 

[authentic]

Wow I dunno….all respect to McDavid….but for me there’s some extra artistry and magic in a lot of those Mario highlights….he’s absurdly long, and silky smooth where as McD is like a knife slicing into openings with killer precision. I think Mario would destroy today’s NHL where players are more protected and unobstructed. Level Tage Thompson’s skill level up by 100% lol….that might be Mario today.

Oh I agree, seeing him with todays training and equipment and a healthy body would be something absurd. No way anyone can convince me Gretzky for instance would be better in todays NHL without players jumping on his back at every turn.

 

[TheAngryHank]

See Gartner and Fedorov skate in their late thirties? Even Bure after all those knee injuries could still fly. I don't see how McDavid slows down to the point where he wouldn't still be the best skater in the league. McDavid losing a step would still be the best player in the NHL, guess we'll see how Bedard manages in the next decade.

Feds was probably the best pure skater to ever lace em up few guys made flat out speed look effortless.

 

[steleh]

But why do we continue to ignore the fact that skill level now is much higher than it was in the 80s? It's ignoring facts.

None is ignoring that. McDavid is the most advanced player ever, but the term "best" in these situations are always measures against peers

 

[HFpapi]

Some food for thought for those talking about the superior percentages by which Gordie Howe won his Rosses as opposed to McDavid.

Gordie Howe 1953/54 Art Ross winning season. Top 10 scorers by country of birth.

1) Canada
2) Canada
3) Canada
4) Canada
5) Canada
6) Canada
7) Canada
8) Canada
9) Canada
10)Canada

2022/23 season top 10 scorers as it stands by country of birth.

1) Canada
2) Germany
3) Russia
4) Czechia
5) USA
6) USA
7) Sweden
8) Sweden
9) USA
10)Canada

You think maybe there's a quality of competition difference?

 

[Video Nasty]

Ovechkin is the Kobe Bryant of hockey

He scored more than anyone else because he shot way, way more than anyone else, but his overall impact/value to his team over the majority of his career hasn't been at a level that warrants consideration as a generational talent

He has just 1 Art Ross, and while he did lead the league points-per-game 3x, in 2 of those seasons he was only .01 points ahead. Crosby in '08, and then Malkin in '09

In 2010, Ovechkin set his career high in points-per-game with 1.51, which finished 1st in the league ahead of Henrik Sedin's mark of 1.37

Malkin, Kane, and Kucherov all lead the league by at least .20 during their career years, so shouldn't a generational/top 10 player be able to out-produce Henrik Sedin by more than .14 PPG?

Crosby has seasons where he lead the league by .31, .34, .23


From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons

Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that age range:

From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102

From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129

From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220

From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149

From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139

From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135

It just doesn't make sense that a generational talent would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-


Being one of the best HR hitters of all-time doesn't mean one is automatically one of the best players ever

The same rationale applies to goal scoring in hockey...

Ovechkin may be a generational scorer, but he's no generational player


PS
Stanley Cup Champion has zero bearing on whether a player qualifies as "generational"

I like the loose Kobe comparison. It takes courage to critique his game after he has been deified by his death.

Solid post that will make most people see red and unable to follow through with your overall point.

 

[GMR]

It's subjective, sure, but allow me to walk you through my thought process.

McDavid is supremely gifted, but in spite of his highlight reel, I'm not convinced he has the best hands ever. His differentiator is his feet, and the hands/feet sync. He is a far superior skater than the pack, and he knows exactly how to exploit the space he generates. He's perhaps the greatest at driving wide, cutting around defenders, and finishing. Mind you, he will cross over defenders or triangle them at will, absolutely. He can do it all.

Now, in my opinion, Bure's hands were equally in sync with his feet. He was must watch TV in the 90s. As a winger, he was less of a distributor, and for a significant portion of his career, he didn't have a Draisaitl on his line. The two line pass, and the dead puck culture dragged down his creativity and productivity. Factor in blown knees, and you have a guy who underperformed relative to his potential ceiling. But visually, Bure was doing McDavid like things to his peers every night, and lapping the field in goals in a low scoring era.

With that said, Bure played against Lemieux for much of his career. Lemieux was aging through the 90s, and yet sustained all-time prime production because he could do things with the puck that nobody could do. Not even Bure. He would beat defenses every way imaginable without necessarily out skating them. He, and specifically his hands, were simply on another level. I believe that to be the case relative to McDavid as well. Time will tell.

Lemieux’s size and stickhandling made it almost impossible to separate him from the puck. Guys like Bure, McDavid, or Datsyuk had the slick moves and agility but lacked Mario’s giant frame.

 

[psycat]

None is ignoring that. McDavid is the most advanced player ever, but the term "best" in these situations are always measures against peers

I am, kind of, questioning that. Indeed the average player etc is better trained and coached today but I 100% believe that a peak Lemieux would beat McDavid in the scoring race today if transported through a time machine and put in the modern equipment for a preseason. I don't talk about a Lemieux who grew up at the same time as McDavid etc. Humans are humans and have not changed much in the past 25 years.

 

[authentic]

I am, kind of, questioning that. Indeed the average player etc is better trained and coached today but I 100% believe that a peak Lemieux would beat McDavid in the scoring race today if transported through a time machine and put in the modern equipment for a preseason. I don't talk about a Lemieux who grew up at the same time as McDavid etc. Humans are humans and have not changed much in the past 25 years.

Well no but the sport of hockey absolutely has.