Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Lou Sassole]

McDavid is the best skilled hockey player to have played the game .

He's more gifted that 66 or 99.
If he played in the same time as them he would have gotten better results .

If he played when they did, he would've had his head taken off; like lindros or Kariya.

 

[LuckyPierre]

So in what way was Lemieux a better stickhandler really? He maybe had the softest hands but his actual stickhandling ability was not on McDavid's current level, no one's was before composite sticks.

Lemieux was constantly looking off and toe dragging guys with a 6'4" wingspan, to the point where defenders would panic and overcommit when they had to D him up. He would make the right move every time; his eyes and hands were in sync like nobody in history. It was a sick joke - the only way he could be defended was by mauling him.

McDavid has the amazing combination of eyes, hands, and feet. But take his feet away in his later years and see if he still laps the competition like Lemieux did. While lanky, he doesn't quite have the massive frame to protect the puck like a Lemieux, so if he ever slows down, we'll truly see who dominates their peers more.

 

[SaltNPeca]

Comparing across eras is always tough, but for me it's clear that McDavid is head and shoulders above his peers in this era. It's not remotely close.

Just look how "those threads" have all but disappeared as this season has rolled along.

Pretty much since 2022 Playoffs got going that sympathy Hart started to look stupid as even casuals started to realize not only how exciting and fast this player is, but also him existing on another plane of existence in terms of timing, skill, strength, determination, etc.

One could select from hundreds of goals, but take a recent SHG. It is not just the points totals, it is how he's doing it... essentially dummying the league on a weekly basis.

 

[blundluntman]

The 80s looks like pond hockey compared to today's game. Send this version of McDavid to the 80s and he would decimate the records

Have you not seen that video of Oliver Ekman Larsson skating in old 80s equipment? He could hardly skate, shoot and stickhandle...



If you put McDavid in that equipment he wouldn't look nearly as impressive as he does right now. Give everyone the same playing field if you're going to make these silly time-machine arguments

 

[Canovin]

Have you not seen that video of Oliver Ekman Larsson skating in old 80s equipment? He could hardly skate, shoot and stickhandle...



If you put McDavid in that equipment he wouldn't look nearly as impressive as he does right now. Give everyone the same playing field if you're going to make these silly time-machine arguments

Give anyone any new equipment and it'll take some adjustment. You should know this lol

 

[jigglysquishy]

This is a truly transcendent season for McDavid. The kind of season that only players like Gretzky, Howe, Orr, and Lemieux have achieved.

I think if you’re being overly, and probably unnecessarily cautious to not atleast entertain the notion that he belongs in those players class.

He's pretty clearly peaking below Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux.

In terms of best single seasons, no one hits their level (deliberately excluding goalies)

Tier 1
Gretzky/Orr/Lemieux

Tier 2
Howe/Morenz

Tier 3
Hull/Beliveau/Jagr/Lafleur

The above has pretty much been the standard for 30 years now, at least in terms of single seasons. McDavid's 2021 season was always a question mark. In terms of separation from peers, it was tier 2, but the short season, no interdivisional play, and the general weird nature of the COVID year was always going to be treated as an oddity. Like Richard's 50 goals in 50 games during the war, or Esposito's 150 boosted by Orr, or Cowley breaking numbers during the war.

But his 2022-2023 season leaves no question marks, and is up there with peak Howe and Morenz for separation from peers. I just don't think he's at the Tier 1 stage.

In 1986-87, Gretzky had more assists than any other player had points. And lead the league in goals. He had more EVP than any other player had points. He lead the league in EVP, SHP, PPP. Lead the league in +-. Then went on to lead the playoffs in points en route to a Cup. For as great as McDavid is this year, it's not a 1987 Gretzky separation from peers.

In 1970, Bobby Orr won the Art Ross by 21 point as a defenseman. Lead the league in +-. Arguably the only time in NHL history someone has been both the best defensive player and best offensive player in the league (arguably, world). The only other instance of this happening in a major pro league in Frank Nighbor in 1918. Orr's 1970 season is only slightly behind McDavid offensively, while being a defenseman. It defies logic. For as great as McDavid is this year, it's not 1970 Orr separation from peers.

Lemieux is harder. 1989 is insane and probably Lemieux at his best. But he's competing with 28 year old prime Gretzky and peak Yzerman (I'd take 1989 Yzerman over any player in the league today save McDavid). In 1993 he misses 24 games to cancer, yet leads the league in points by 12 and EVP by 9. I don't think McDavid is at this level.

But Howe 1953, which has long been the gold standard of non-Orr/Gretzky/Lemieux single seasons? That gets to be interesting. McDavid is ahead of Draisaitl by 29.2%. Howe won the Art Ross by 33.8%. McDavid is 35.3% ahead of closest non-teammate. Howe was 55.7% ahead of next closest teammate. Howe lead in goals, assists, EVP, and PPP. McDavid leads in goals, assists, and PPP. McDavid is only 2 back of Karlsson for EVP lead.

McDavid played in a deeper league for sure. But Howe was a physical force and elite defensively. It's close, even if I still lean Howe.

Arguably 5th highest peak of any player ever in hockey isn't small potatoes. He's clearly ahead of Jagr/Crosby/Ovechkin/Lafleur/Hull/Beliveau so far (season isn't over). But I don't think he's in the Gretzky/Orr/Lemieux tier. Roughly around Howe for peak, which is insane to type.

Now, this is single seasons. Howe had 4 years in a row dominating in points. Morenz never duplicated 1928. Orr stayed at his peak level for about 6 years, same as Gretzky. Lemieux never duplicated 1989 over a full season, though obviously 1993 his a 1b to his 1989.

Very interesting to watch.

 

[blundluntman]

Give anyone any new equipment and it'll take some adjustment. You should know this lol

Clearly, but it goes both ways. McDavid would have to adjust to new equipment and different rules. He wouldn't skate nearly as fast and shoot anywhere near as hard or quickly as he does now with composite sticks. He couldn't stop on a dime, and he wouldn't have 2 line passes either. All of that would nerf his skills. That's why you judge players relative to their peers rather than relative to other time periods.

 

[Video Nasty]

People need to be realistic and ignore recency bias.

And even more need to ignore nostalgia, ranking players in blind fashion based on someone else telling them so when growing up, and closing their mind as people naturally do as they age.

A most basic human trait is to romanticize our youths and become entrenched in our beliefs as we age out. Not coincidentally, this is why most complain that things now are not as good as they were in the old days, an ever moving goal post. It takes effort to keep an open mind.

Being objective is somewhere in between your post and my post. Being objective in sports when comparing across eras is borderline impossible.

 

[GMR]

The 80s looks like pond hockey compared to today's game. Send this version of McDavid to the 80s and he would decimate the records

How many points would he score? Gretzky's record was 92 goals and 215 points. How much does McDavid score since he would "decimate the records" as you say?

These sweeping statements are ridiculous. He wouldn't decimate Wayne's records. Wayne himself decimated records of his competitors. You can try to argue he'd compete with Gretzky for the Art Ross, but saying he'd decimate the records is silly.

 

[blundluntman]

And even more need to ignore nostalgia, ranking players in blind fashion based on someone else telling them so when growing up, and closing their mind as people naturally do as they age.

A most basic human trait is to romanticize our youths and become entrenched in our beliefs as we age out. Not coincidentally, this is why most complain that things now are not as good as they were in the old days, an ever moving goal post. It takes effort to keep an open mind.

Being objective is somewhere in between your post and my post. Being objective in sports when comparing across eras is borderline impossible.

Players compete across different eras though so there is a way to reference performances. Sakic had 100 points in 2007 when Crosby scored 120. And vice versa, Mario scored 160 in a season when a younger Sakic in his prime scored 120. I'm not saying he'd scored 200 points in today's era, I'm saying he and Gretzky dominated their peers to a greater degree, and that the quality of their competition was just as valid if not greater than the players of today. All of that matters when comparing players in all time lists.

 

[GMR]

So in what way was Lemieux a better stickhandler really? He maybe had the softest hands but his actual stickhandling ability was not on McDavid's current level, no one's was before composite sticks.

Hard to prove to you without showing the games and/or limited highlights available. There's not a collection of youtube videos like say McDavid or Datsyuk have.

 

[GrizzGreen]

The big 4 all won cups, I know it's a team trophy but still. Being one of the all time big 4 legends you need to win. I could see an argument for replacing Howe, as his legacy will fade as it grows older.

The other 3 are near impossible to surpass unless Mcdavid takes his level of talent to the absolute pinnacle with 150+ point seasons, 2000 points, individual hardware and at least a cup, preferably 2.

He is in control of this destiny, I think he will be top 5 when all is said and done. How much higher he climbs we will see. Should be fun to witness. Maybe the big 4 will become the big 5.

To add to this... everyone likes to talk about "if he leaves Edmonton", realistically, that cheapens the potential cup win. Crosby had a great team around him that was extremely successful. Ovechkin had to wait through years of having regular season success for the team to be able to win a cup.

If Thornton had won a cup with the Leafs, it would have been a lot less impactful than if he had won in 2016 with the Sharks.

 

[psycat]

McDavid is the best skilled hockey player to have played the game .

He's more gifted that 66 or 99.
If he played in the same time as them he would have gotten better results .

Wrong.

 

[psycat]

Players compete across different eras though so there is a way to reference performances. Sakic had 100 points in 2007 when Crosby scored 120. And vice versa, Mario scored 160 in a season when a younger Sakic in his prime scored 120. I'm not saying he'd scored 200 points in today's era, I'm saying he and Gretzky dominated their peers to a greater degree, and that the quality of their competition was just as valid if not greater than the players of today. All of that matters when comparing players in all time lists.

Give peak Lemieux a preseason in new equipment etc and I wouldn't say it's impossible he would have scored 200pts today given that a clearly inferior player in McDavid scores close to 150.

 

[Canovin]

Clearly, but it goes both ways. McDavid would have to adjust to new equipment and different rules. He wouldn't skate nearly as fast and shoot anywhere near as hard or quickly as he does now with composite sticks. He couldn't stop on a dime, and he wouldn't have 2 line passes either. All of that would nerf his skills. That's why you judge players relative to their peers rather than relative to other time periods.

McDavid would still be the fastest in the 80s. He would still have the best hands. Best edgework to go with the insanely good IQ and vision. He won't need much adjustment at all.

McDavid is being compared to his peers no doubt and his peers are also playing in the most competitive era. The 80s and 90s had some great high end talents but their depth players are awful.

 

[InfinityIggy]

I think he is the most skilled player of all time. But he won’t be remembered as the “best”.

The reality is even with increased scoring in recent years we will never see anything like what was going on during Gretzkys prime.

 

[authentic]

Lemieux was constantly looking off and toe dragging guys with a 6'4" wingspan, to the point where defenders would panic and overcommit when they had to D him up. He would make the right move every time; his eyes and hands were in sync like nobody in history. It was a sick joke - the only way he could be defended was by mauling him.

McDavid has the amazing combination of eyes, hands, and feet. But take his feet away in his later years and see if he still laps the competition like Lemieux did. While lanky, he doesn't quite have the massive frame to protect the puck like a Lemieux, so if he ever slows down, we'll truly see who dominates their peers more.

Hey I firmly believe Lemieux was the best player ever. I just don't think you can straight up say "Lemieux was a better stickhandler than McDavid" when talking about actual skill level. If McDavid went back in time with all the skills he has now he would very clearly be a better player than Lemieux. Lemieux is the only player in history I feel comfortable saying could outscore McDavid with todays advantages.

 

[authentic]

Hard to prove to you without showing the games and/or limited highlights available. There's not a collection of youtube videos like say McDavid or Datsyuk have.

Dude I've seen as many highlights (even posted one here yesterday showing how fast he was before his back injuries) and games of Lemieux as anyone, except maybe Pittsburgh season ticket holders from back in the day. He was my favourite player growing up but you're lying to yourself if you think McDavid isn't the straight up most skilled player ever.

 

[Video Nasty]

Players compete across different eras though so there is a way to reference performances. Sakic had 100 points in 2007 when Crosby scored 120. And vice versa, Mario scored 160 in a season when a younger Sakic in his prime scored 120. I'm not saying he'd scored 200 points in today's era, I'm saying he and Gretzky dominated their peers to a greater degree, and that the quality of their competition was just as valid if not greater than the players of today. All of that matters when comparing players in all time lists.

Sure. I’ve brought up many of these examples to try and compare what one player might do in another time as well, but we need to realize that it’s still doesn’t make it anything close to a perfect system and certainly not objective.

All seasons are not created equal.

Sakic himself is a great example. When comparing his two best seasons, 1995-1996 and 2000-2001, he scored 3 more goals and had only 2 less points in a season where his team scored 56 less goals, the league wide scoring environment was 15% lower with less power plays, and he was 31 instead of 26.

If we only knew about his 2000-2001 campaign and were asked to speculate what he would have gotten in a season where he was 26 years old and the league scoring environment was 3.14 versus 2.76, it would be speculated that he would have potted around 62 goals and 136 points, rather than the 51 and 120 he got in reality.

What’s my point? There are seasons where players are off, there are seasons where a perfect storm happens, and there are seasons that simply just happen however they play out. It’s fun to compare, it’s useful to try and glean something out of it, and we need to always try and compare, but when we boil it all down, there’s little that’s concrete about it.

 

[GMR]

Dude I've seen as many highlights (even posted one here yesterday showing how fast he was before his back injuries) and games of Lemieux as anyone, except maybe Pittsburgh season ticket holders from back in the day. He was my favourite player growing up but you're lying to yourself if you think McDavid isn't the straight up most skilled player ever.

I was talking about stickhandling specifically. I think Lemieux was better at it and was a better goal scorer also. Regarding overall skills of skating, puck handling and shooting, you may be right. I’ve never considered McDavid as one of the best shooters though.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The two biggest freaks to ever play this game are Lemieux and McDavid IMHO. However, McDavid doesn't have the physical gifts Lemieux did.

I've written this before, but Lemieux wrecked the league without even trying, and he even admitted he was lazy and didn't really bother much with training.

McDavid is a freak with a massive work ethic and he took advantage of today's billion dollar youth sports training culture.

If Lemieux grew up in that culture today, and assuming he had an actual work ethic, I'm 100% sure McDavid would be a clear #2 behind him.

 

[cupface52]

He's pretty clearly peaking below Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux.

In terms of best single seasons, no one hits their level (deliberately excluding goalies)

Tier 1
Gretzky/Orr/Lemieux

Tier 2
Howe/Morenz

Tier 3
Hull/Beliveau/Jagr/Lafleur

The above has pretty much been the standard for 30 years now, at least in terms of single seasons. McDavid's 2021 season was always a question mark. In terms of separation from peers, it was tier 2, but the short season, no interdivisional play, and the general weird nature of the COVID year was always going to be treated as an oddity. Like Richard's 50 goals in 50 games during the war, or Esposito's 150 boosted by Orr, or Cowley breaking numbers during the war.

But his 2022-2023 season leaves no question marks, and is up there with peak Howe and Morenz for separation from peers. I just don't think he's at the Tier 1 stage.

In 1986-87, Gretzky had more assists than any other player had points. And lead the league in goals. He had more EVP than any other player had points. He lead the league in EVP, SHP, PPP. Lead the league in +-. Then went on to lead the playoffs in points en route to a Cup. For as great as McDavid is this year, it's not a 1987 Gretzky separation from peers.

In 1970, Bobby Orr won the Art Ross by 21 point as a defenseman. Lead the league in +-. Arguably the only time in NHL history someone has been both the best defensive player and best offensive player in the league (arguably, world). The only other instance of this happening in a major pro league in Frank Nighbor in 1918. Orr's 1970 season is only slightly behind McDavid offensively, while being a defenseman. It defies logic. For as great as McDavid is this year, it's not 1970 Orr separation from peers.

Lemieux is harder. 1989 is insane and probably Lemieux at his best. But he's competing with 28 year old prime Gretzky and peak Yzerman (I'd take 1989 Yzerman over any player in the league today save McDavid). In 1993 he misses 24 games to cancer, yet leads the league in points by 12 and EVP by 9. I don't think McDavid is at this level.

But Howe 1953, which has long been the gold standard of non-Orr/Gretzky/Lemieux single seasons? That gets to be interesting. McDavid is ahead of Draisaitl by 29.2%. Howe won the Art Ross by 33.8%. McDavid is 35.3% ahead of closest non-teammate. Howe was 55.7% ahead of next closest teammate. Howe lead in goals, assists, EVP, and PPP. McDavid leads in goals, assists, and PPP. McDavid is only 2 back of Karlsson for EVP lead.

McDavid played in a deeper league for sure. But Howe was a physical force and elite defensively. It's close, even if I still lean Howe.

Arguably 5th highest peak of any player ever in hockey isn't small potatoes. He's clearly ahead of Jagr/Crosby/Ovechkin/Lafleur/Hull/Beliveau so far (season isn't over). But I don't think he's in the Gretzky/Orr/Lemieux tier. Roughly around Howe for peak, which is insane to type.

Now, this is single seasons. Howe had 4 years in a row dominating in points. Morenz never duplicated 1928. Orr stayed at his peak level for about 6 years, same as Gretzky. Lemieux never duplicated 1989 over a full season, though obviously 1993 his a 1b to his 1989.

Very interesting to watch.

If you're putting Morenz in tier 2 for the '28 season, shouldn't you also put Cowley in there for his '41 season? Canada didn't start conscription until April of '41.

Howe played against a weaker talent pool with solely Canadian players, What if we compare McDavid's scoring to his Canadian peers, which would put his competition on par with Howe, at least as close one could possibly compare. McDavid is 55% ahead of second place Marner. McDavid outscored Marchand by 52% in '21. While not in Gretzky/Lemieux territory, definately above Howe.

 

[blundluntman]

McDavid is being compared to his peers no doubt and his peers are also playing in the most competitive era. The 80s and 90s had some great high end talents but their depth players are awful.

i don’t think he had better hands than Mario honestly but I get your point. I think he’d be scoring around 160 in that era if I had to guess. Sure depth players are better but it was even harder playing against depth players back then with all the clutching and grabbing that existed. I think it’s more about separation from top end talent than depth players.

Sure. I’ve brought up many of these examples to try and compare what one player might do in another time as well, but we need to realize that it’s still doesn’t make it anything close to a perfect system and certainly not objective.

All seasons are not created equal.

Sakic himself is a great example. When comparing his two best seasons, 1995-1996 and 2000-2001, he scored 3 more goals and had only 2 less points in a season where his team scored 56 less goals, the league wide scoring environment was 15% lower with less power plays, and he was 31 instead of 26.

If we only knew about his 2000-2001 campaign and were asked to speculate what he would have gotten in a season where he was 26 years old and the league scoring environment was 3.14 versus 2.76, it would be speculated that he would have potted around 62 goals and 136 points, rather than the 51 and 120 he got in reality.

What’s my point? There are seasons where players are off, there are seasons where a perfect storm happens, and there are seasons that simply just happen however they play out. It’s fun to compare, it’s useful to try and glean something out of it, and we need to always try and compare, but when we boil it all down, there’s little that’s concrete about it.

I agree it’s not perfect and there are nuances but I do think it proves the point that players can adapt to different times and just because the games different it doesn’t mean top end players won’t adapt. That’s all I’m getting at

 

[Video Nasty]

i don’t think he had better hands than Mario honestly but I get your point. I think he’d be scoring around 160 in that era if I had to guess. Sure depth players are better but it was even harder playing against depth players back then with all the clutching and grabbing that existed. I think it’s more about separation from top end talent than depth players.


I agree it’s not perfect and there are nuances but I do think it proves the point that players can adapt to different times and just because the games different it doesn’t mean top end players won’t adapt. That’s all I’m getting at

100%. I’ve always felt that the best players would hang in any era. We’re on the same page there. I firmly feel that both Gretzky and Lemieux would be ahead of McDavid in the scoring race today.

That doesn’t mean that I can’t see McDavid’s complete career letting people argue that he deserves a placement higher than #5 all-time.

After all, remolding the Big Four into a new Big Five implies that. Maybe he’ll always be that 5th member among the general consensus, but just like when people present cases for anyone over Gretzky, reasonable arguments can be made and I think they will eventually be able to be made for McDavid.

 

[blundluntman]

100%. I’ve always felt that the best players would hang in any era. We’re on the same page there. I firmly feel that both Gretzky and Lemieux would be ahead of McDavid in the scoring race today.

That doesn’t mean that I can’t see McDavid’s complete career letting people argue that he deserves a placement higher than #5 all-time.

After all, remolding the Big Four into a new Big Five implies that. Maybe he’ll always be that 5th member among the general consensus, but just like when people present cases for anyone over Gretzky, reasonable arguments can be made and I think they will eventually be able to be made for McDavid.

Yeah I think we’re on the same page too. I feel like mcdavid will finish as a clear cut #5 as well if things keep going the way they are. He may even beat out Howe as the 3rd best peak imo. He’s making a strong case with his dominance this season