Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[steleh]

I am, kind of, questioning that. Indeed the average player etc is better trained and coached today but I 100% believe that a peak Lemieux would beat McDavid in the scoring race today if transported through a time machine and put in the modern equipment for a preseason. I don't talk about a Lemieux who grew up at the same time as McDavid etc. Humans are humans and have not changed much in the past 25 years.

Perhaps. Some of his attributes are fore sure better than McDavids, others aren't. If we were talking Gretzky I'd disagree, but as you say, Lemieux makes an interesting case.
I'd still lean towards Mcdavid being more advanced and Lemieux being simply better.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

Some food for thought for those talking about the superior percentages by which Gordie Howe won his Rosses as opposed to McDavid.

Gordie Howe 1953/54 Art Ross winning season. Top 10 scorers by country of birth.

1) Canada
2) Canada
3) Canada
4) Canada
5) Canada
6) Canada
7) Canada
8) Canada
9) Canada
10)Canada

2022/23 season top 10 scorers as it stands by country of birth.

1) Canada
2) Germany
3) Russia
4) Czechia
5) USA
6) USA
7) Sweden
8) Sweden
9) USA
10)Canada

You think maybe there's a quality of competition difference?

Excellent point.

I remember when Esa Tikkanen came into the league with his style of play and everyone was AMAZED that a European player could play with grit and ALSO a reasonable level of skill. Imagine starting that conversation now. There are literally a hundred players like that.

I was lucky enough to play with an ex-NHLer on a senior team in the mid-1980s, and then coach a minor leaguer for that same senior team in 2008 (he ended up in the SEL, now SHL). The minor leaguer was by far and away the better player, and I mean it wasn't close. I don't think people truly know how much the game has changed.

 

[psycat]

Perhaps. Some of his attributes are fore sure better than McDavids, others aren't. If we were talking Gretzky I'd disagree, but as you say, Lemieux makes an interesting case.
I'd still lean towards Mcdavid being more advanced and Lemieux being simply better.

Only thing that's more "advanced" is his equipment, tv-production and maybe coaching unless you believe humans wen't through a stage of evolution during the last generation.

Gretzky? I think he would win scoring title handidly aswell but I prefer using Lemieux as the argumentation piece since he was so obviously skilled. But I could imagine Gretzky with todays more lax enviorment and more system based coaching racking up assists at the same pace as he did in his peak, goals maybe not so much although his shot was very, very accurate but goalies defenitely gave up more softies back then. Hard to say really, would never bet against him.

Thing with Lemieux is he did those things while dragging along defenders on his back etc, todays less physical league with nowhere near as much obstruction? Well he would certainly score alot.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

Only thing that's more "advanced" is his equipment, tv-production and maybe coaching unless you believe humans wen't through a stage of evolution during the last generation.

You missed the most important one: training.

Players before 1990ish came home for summer, went fishing, smoked cigars, BBQ'd burgers and drank beer. Then went back to training camp and "got in shape". Bobby Hull used to joke about how his off-season training was throwing hay bales on the farm. Many had jobs in the summer.

Now, every player gets a personalized workout regimen and meal plan for every day from the time they leave the team after the last game to the moment they show up for training camp. Cardio, weights, and nutrition.

 

[Beukeboom]

Well, I don't know man. I think you have a case that he would be a better stickhandler today, but no one including Lemieux was stickhandling as good as current players back then. It just wasn't possible with the stick technology of the day.



These are just his goals this season. Better than any other players highlight reel, peak, prime or career IMO. Including Lemieux, Crosby, Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Forsberg, Malkin or whoever. Literally every other goal is just an insane display of skating and stickhandling with some laser shots as well.



Probably the best highlight reel of Lemieux, many amazing goals in here, but a lot of these clips are actually sped up a bit and he still clearly doesn't stickhandle as fast as McDavid.

So much focus on speed. Lemieux has a much more graceful style of puckhandling and dekes are also just one of many puckhandling aspects. Anyone who has played with a wooden stick from even the late 90's and then compare it to the 0 pound composite sticks of today knows it is impossible to judge different era player's stickhandling by watching how fast they deke on videos.

And in Gretzky's case, the difference is that his greatness is best seen through watching whole games. He dominated them like Mario never did. Mario would explode out of nowhere but Wayne controlled every shift like a fine chess player.

It is what it is, people are blinded by speed and dekes. I do think McDavid can make a case for top five when it's all said and done, but he's 26 and who knows what the future will hold? What if Bedard bests him for instance? McD has had two Wayne/Marioesque seasons and that is not enough to be mentioned as a member in their echelon.

 

[psycat]

You missed the most important one: training.

Players before 1990ish came home for summer, went fishing, smoked cigars, BBQ'd burgers and drank beer. Then went back to training camp and "got in shape". Bobby Hull used to joke about how his off-season training was throwing hay bales on the farm. Many had jobs in the summer.

Now, every player gets a personalized workout regimen and meal plan for every day from the time they leave the team after the last game to the moment they show up for training camp. Cardio, weights, and nutrition.

I am comparing players from the 90s with today, obviously harder to compare someone from the 60s(or in a semi-professional setting). I think you are mistaken if you don't believe they were in good shape back then aswell. Look at someone like Ovechkin he is not extremely fit but got good baseline condition and strength, don't need more in a game like hockey that's mostly about hand eye coordination, skating etc. The points you bring up holds more traction in mariginal gain sports such as sprinting.

Players drink beer today aswell, heck we have full blown addicts in the NHL that still perform at a very high level before they go into rehab, young active bodies can take quite alot of abuse.

Nutrition is close to a non factor, look at Phelps monster diet for example- doesn't matter as long as you spend the energy.

Perhaps the word you looking for is the most "pampered player" of all time. Listen here nowadays there are also tons of distractions, like Laine and his video game addicition.

When I was a kid people played sports after school in the streets etc, sure some kids still do today but I would bet alot that it has decreased in popularity given that people prefer to sit in front of the computer etc. How do you measure such cultural impact? The average kid today is in horrible shape compared to even 20 years ago, atleast where I live. Sure that might not be applicable to the aspiring athletes but it's for sure limiting the talent pool.

 

[TheAngryHank]

So much focus on speed. Lemieux has a much more graceful style of puckhandling and dekes are also just one of many puckhandling aspects. Anyone who has played with a wooden stick from even the late 90's and then compare it to the 0 pound composite sticks of today knows it is impossible to judge different era player's stickhandling by watching how fast they deke on videos.

And in Gretzky's case, the difference is that his greatness is best seen through watching whole games. He dominated them like Mario never did. Mario would explode out of nowhere but Wayne controlled every shift like a fine chess player.

It is what it is, people are blinded by speed and dekes. I do think McDavid can make a case for top five when it's all said and done, but he's 26 and who knows what the future will hold? What if Bedard bests him for instance? McD has had two Wayne/Marioesque seasons and that is not enough to be mentioned as a member in their echelon.

Mario did use a carbon stick , A Nike ,I still have one ...somewhere.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

I am comparing players from the 90s with today, obviously harder to compare someone from the 60s(or in a semi-professional setting). I think you are mistaken if you don't believe they were in good shape back then aswell. Look at someone like Ovechkin he is not extremely fit but got good baseline condition and strength, don't need more in a game like hockey that's mostly about hand eye coordination, skating etc. The points you bring up holds more traction in mariginal gain sports such as sprinting.

Players drink beer today aswell, heck we have full blown addicts in the NHL that still perform at a very high level before they go into rehab, young active bodies can take quite alot of abuse.

Nutrition is close to a non factor, look at Phelps monster diet for example- doesn't matter as long as you spend the energy.

I'm not saying they don't drink. I'm not saying they all eat clean all the time, and that some don't indulge in substance abuse. I AM saying most of the best players have workout and nutritional regimens that you can't even believe. A former NHLer I know who retired a few years back ran 5 miles a day in the summer, was in the gym lifting 2 hours a day 5-6 days a week, eating only lean protein and complex carbs. Golf every other day. He had to check in with the trainer on a regular basis to make sure he was keeping it up. He was not a "star" player. It was a part of his job.

We laugh at Phil Kessel being big and the whole hotdog thing, but I bet even his regimen would blow your mind.

Mario Lemieux used to be a pack a day smoker, by contrast.

You have no clue what some of these guys do to be at their best in 2023. Millions of dollars ride on it. That's why some guys fade into oblivion and we all ask why - they can't handle the off ice routines.

 

[psycat]

I'm not saying they don't drink. I'm not saying they all eat clean all the time, and that some don't indulge in substance abuse. I AM saying most of the best players have workout and nutritional regimens that you can't even believe. A former NHLer I know who retired a few years back ran 5 miles a day in the summer, was in the gym lifting 2 hours a day 5-6 days a week, eating only lean protein and complex carbs. Golf every other day. He had to check in with the trainer on a regular basis to make sure he was keeping it up. He was not a "star" player. It was a part of his job.

We laugh at Phil Kessel being big and the whole hotdog thing, but I bet even his regimen would blow your mind.

Mario Lemieux used to be a pack a day smoker, by contrast.

You have no clue what some of these guys do to be at their best in 2023. Millions of dollars ride on it. That's why some guys fade into oblivion and we all ask why - they can't handle the off ice routines.

No I fully believe that someone like Kessel works out, and alot at that he is playing sports for a living. I actually know (of) a player who briefly had a stint in the NHL so I know pretty much what it takes, he even ate alot of kebab. What I am questioning is A: What does the mariginal gains in comparison to the 90s(or even 80s) actually end up meaning on the ice B: The belief you seem to have that players in the 90s was somehow not well trained/suited to play ice-hockey.

I would argue the best practice for playing ice-hockey in particular is doing just that, so how much does your average player spend on ice growing up in comparison to say Gretzky with his own backyard pond? Muscles only means so much one the ice else a player like Patrick Kane be able to dominate.

There are actually quite a few people in the world that works out daily(I am not one of them for the record) , heck even have it for a whole lifestyle without making the NHL.

 

[Video Nasty]

You guys never saw Rocky IV?

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

No I fully believe that someone like Kessel works out, and alot at that he is playing sports for a living. I actually know (of) a player who briefly had a stint in the NHL so I know pretty much what it takes, he even ate alot of kebab. What I am questioning is A: What does the mariginal gains in comparison to the 90s(or even 80s) actually end up meaning on the ice B: The belief you seem to have that players in the 90s was somehow not well trained/suited to play ice-hockey.

I would argue the best practice for playing ice-hockey in particular is doing just that, so how much does your average player spend on ice growing up in comparison to say Gretzky with his own backyard pond? Muscles only means so much one the ice else a player like Patrick Kane be able to dominate.

There are actually quite a few people in the world that works out daily(I am not one of them for the record) , heck even have it for a whole lifestyle without making the NHL.

Massive difference. Like, to a level you wouldn't believe. Goaltending alone is a completely different sport in 2023 from 1990. I was more referring to pre-1990s, though. I think fitness and nutrition changed in the 90s, especially when Europeans started coming over and brought with them a more intelligent way to prepare for athletics, not just hockey.

 

[ORRFForever]

Who will be the first?

 

[wasunder]

I think this argument has an extreme of two camps. Younger people who are witnessing a player of McDavid a caliber for the first time ever therefore thinking he is the GOAT, and nostalgics talking about how the greatness of old will never be touched.

I think Gretzky’s records speak for themselves and will never be touched. He also has the biggest trophy case by far. He also played in the highest scoring era ever on one of the greatest teams ever assembled which certainly helps his bumbers(but he did it on the kings too which can’t be discounted)

Lemieux has an argument for the most skilled player of all time. But he also doesn’t have the trophy case/championships to back up just how dominant he was due to extraneous factors. McDavid will likely have more hardware by the time things are said and done.

Howe is iconic and legendary for his longevity and style of play. To me, how you rank him depends on how you value his career longevity. Certainly legendary, but skill wise he wasn’t quite as good as the other top 4

Orr lacked longevity but was so incredibly dominant and changed the game forever. You could argue he was the most dominant player of all time relative to competition.

Point I’m trying to make is these players all have pros and cons about where you rank them and depending on how you value these things it’s going to change the rankings.

McDavid could finish with the second best personal trophy case ever. If he wins a championship or two that would lock him into the top five imo. I don’t hold Olympics against him because he was never given the chance as of now.

 

[HFpapi]

This is the guy who's better than Connor McDavid guys.

Watch that clip and be honest with yourselves. 50's hockey looks like midget house league.

I get it, context, subjectivity yada yada. "We can't compare eras."

If we can't compare eras easily, why do we default to the player from 1954 who played in a 6 team league comprised of only Canadians and who led the league in scoring 6 times in 17 years as being better than the modern player in an infinitely more competitive league who won it 5 times in 8 years?

Barring catastrophe, McDavid will surpass Howe in actual achievements. Adding context, it's way more impressive what McDavid is doing. The eye test? It's almost disrespectful to Howe bringing that up. He wouldn't make a midget AA team in 2023. What business does he have being ranked above McDavid? Someone tell me?

If you want to talk Mario and Orr, fine, Howe should be put to rest. Connor has passed him.

 

[Oneiro]

I want to see what happens when he loses a bit of speed and has to compensate with his mind. He'll still obviously be one of the best skaters in the league but he'll have to grow his game. His physical gifts are just a tremendous advantage right now.

Unlikely but I could see a scenario where McDavid is not as effective as Crosby into his 30s. But, sure, I could see him at No. 2 of all time.

 

[TheSanny]

This is the guy who's better than Connor McDavid guys.

Watch that clip and be honest with yourselves. 50's hockey looks like midget house league.

I get it, context, subjectivity yada yada. "We can't compare eras."

If we can't compare eras easily, why do we default to the player from 1954 who played in a 6 team league comprised of only Canadians and who led the league in scoring 6 times in 17 years as being better than the modern player in an infinitely more competitive league who won it 5 times in 8 years?

Barring catastrophe, McDavid will surpass Howe in actual achievements. Adding context, it's way more impressive what McDavid is doing. The eye test? It's almost disrespectful to Howe bringing that up. He wouldn't make a midget AA team in 2023. What business does he have being ranked above McDavid? Someone tell me?

If you want to talk Mario and Orr, fine, Howe should be put to rest. Connor has passed him.

This.

No disrespect to Howe or any other players from the 50s, 60s etc, but like you point out with your Midget AA reference, any professional hockey player of today are miles ahead of any player from that era. Clearly, and even more so than ever after watching Howe's highlights.

 

[HFpapi]

I want to see what happens when he loses a bit of speed and has to compensate with his mind. He'll still obviously be one of the best skaters in the league but he'll have to grow his game. His physical gifts are just a tremendous advantage right now.

Unlikely but I could see a scenario where McDavid is not as effective as Crosby into his 30s. But, sure, I could see him at No. 2 of all time.

The misconception that McDavid is a meathead who just happens to skate fast needs to die. (Not saying you said that but I see it implied on this forum).

His vision and ability to read the game at high speed is second to none. He has some of the best hands in the game. He has a laser shot and it's getting better every season. Plus, let's be honest, he feasts on the PP and you can feast on the PP deep into your 30's. We thought Ovi would suck when he couldn't power down the wing and score off the rush.

Lastly, McDavid is 26. Even if he's a scrub without his speed, he has 6-7 more years with it.

 

[Video Nasty]

This is the guy who's better than Connor McDavid guys.

Watch that clip and be honest with yourselves. 50's hockey looks like midget house league.

I get it, context, subjectivity yada yada. "We can't compare eras."

If we can't compare eras easily, why do we default to the player from 1954 who played in a 6 team league comprised of only Canadians and who led the league in scoring 6 times in 17 years as being better than the modern player in an infinitely more competitive league who won it 5 times in 8 years?

Barring catastrophe, McDavid will surpass Howe in actual achievements. Adding context, it's way more impressive what McDavid is doing. The eye test? It's almost disrespectful to Howe bringing that up. He wouldn't make a midget AA team in 2023. What business does he have being ranked above McDavid? Someone tell me?

If you want to talk Mario and Orr, fine, Howe should be put to rest. Connor has passed him.

You know, if someone craves to be ignorant, I can almost respect the stance. But only if you were consistent and dismissed everything pre-2004 lockout. At least it would be an opinion, that while ignorant, has some consistent thinking and balls behind it.

But that’s the problem with people who leap to oust Howe, yet inexplicably say it’s fine to have Orr in the list. Or even Gretzky and Lemieux. You perceive Howe as the weakest member of the four because he made his debut the earliest and there is mostly only terrible looking, grainy, black and white footage to point to, but don’t stop and think how is career overlapped with Orr and Gretzky and he played his final season just 5 seasons before Mario made his debut (similar to the gap between Crosby/Ovechkin versus Gretzky’s final game).

What is your response to Howe at age 40 being 5th in goals, 3rd in assists, and 3rd in points, ahead of 28 year old Mikita in both raw points and PPG who has just won 4 of the previous 5 Art Rosses (and was 2nd the other time) and only behind 26 year old Esposito and 30 year old Hull during the season that Orr won his 2nd straight Norris and just one year before he would win the Art Ross.

Or that as a 51 year old, he managed to score 15 goals and average half a PPG during Gretzky’s rookie season and add a goal and an assist in three playoff games. Hell, he was officially 52 years old in his last regular season game ever and scored a goal and added an assist.

Utter nonsense to diminish Howe and act like he couldn’t hang in any era.

If you dismiss him, have some stones and wave away everything the current Big Four did.

Sincerely,

One of the biggest McDavid marks on this forum who firmly believes he remolds the Big Four into a new Big Five where arguments can be reasonably made why he is higher.

 

[HFpapi]

This.

No disrespect to Howe or any other players from the 50s, 60s etc, but like you point out with your Midget AA reference, any professional hockey player of today are miles ahead of any player from that era. Clearly, and even more so than ever after watching Howe's highlights.

Which is to be expected, athletes improve over time. I'm not going to sit here and make the case that Andreas Athanasiou is better than Howe in a historic context just because he's more skilled in a vacuum.

But when we are talking about McDavid being head and shoulders above the rest of the league in the most competitive era of hockey ever and winning 5 scoring titles in 8 seasons and people are saying "he'll never pass Howe no matter what" it's like, what are we talking about here?

If McDavid wins 7-8 scoring titles in the 2010's/2020's he's still somehow not better than a guy who won 6 in the the 1950's against farmers and insurance brokers? Let's give it a rest.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

I think this argument has an extreme of two camps. Younger people who are witnessing a player of McDavid a caliber for the first time ever therefore thinking he is the GOAT, and nostalgics talking about how the greatness of old will never be touched.

I am Camp #3.

I differentiate "most skilled" and "greatest ever".

McDavid is the most skilled player to ever live. No player in history has ever combined his speed and puck handling, and him getting to 150 points in this era with the goaltending, training and coaching in place may be an unparalleled feat.

As for him being "the greatest ever", I think we have to judge a player by what they accomplished in their era. Max Domi is more skilled than Gordie Howe was and Domie plays against Russians, Swedes etc, but does that mean Max Domi>Gordie Howe? No way.

The problem with this thread is that people can't separate the two concepts.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

If he is the second best player he needs to win multiple cups and pmvps. No which way

 

[HFpapi]

You know, if someone craves to be ignorant, I can almost respect the stance. But only if you were consistent and dismissed everything pre-2004 lockout. At least it would be an opinion, that while ignorant, has some consistent thinking and balls behind it.

But that’s the problem with people who leap to oust Howe, yet inexplicably say it’s fine to have Orr in the list. Or even Gretzky and Lemieux. You perceive Howe as the weakest member of the four because he made his debut the earliest and there is mostly only terrible looking, grainy, black and white footage to point to, but don’t stop and think how is career overlapped with Orr and Gretzky and he played his final season just 5 seasons before Mario made his debut (similar to the gap between Crosby/Ovechkin versus Gretzky’s final game).

What is your response to Howe at age 40 being 5th in goals, 3rd in assists, and 3rd in points, ahead of 28 year old Mikita in both raw points and PPG who has just won 4 of the previous 5 Art Rosses (and was 2nd the other time) and only behind 26 year old Esposito and 30 year old Hull during the season that Orr won his 2nd straight Norris and just one year before he would win the Art Ross.

Or that as a 51 year old, he managed to score 15 goals and average half a PPG during Gretzky’s rookie season and add a goal and an assist in three playoff games. Hell, he was officially 52 years old in his last regular season game ever and scored a goal and added an assist.

Utter nonsense to diminish Howe and act like he couldn’t hang in any era.

If you dismiss him, have some stones and wave away everything the current Big Four did.

Sincerely,

One of the biggest McDavid marks on this forum who firmly believes he remolds the Big Four into a new Big Five where arguments can be reasonably made why he is higher.

Your point is valid and I admit my post that you quoted was taking the piss a little bit.

My own favorite calculation to make the point that you're making is to point out that an old and broken down Mario Lemieux was leading the league in scoring for 3/4 of the year in 2002/03 until he got hurt and still finished 8th with 91 points in 67 games. That season Joe Thornton scored 101 points, the same Joe Thornton who scored 125 points in Crosby/Ovis' rookie year.

So yes, if you do that kind of math, the players of old aren't scrubs. But, I want to start eroding the arguments for Howe over McDavid.

Eye test? Nope
Quality of competition? Nope
Raw totals? Nope
Achievements? I mean, for now but 5 scoring titles in 8 years vs 6 in 17?

I hate the protective barrier around Howe that prevents him from being challenged by McDavid when we know damn well we are witnessing something more special than anything that happened in the 1950s.

 

[psycat]

You know, if someone craves to be ignorant, I can almost respect the stance. But only if you were consistent and dismissed everything pre-2004 lockout. At least it would be an opinion, that while ignorant, has some consistent thinking and balls behind it.

But that’s the problem with people who leap to oust Howe, yet inexplicably say it’s fine to have Orr in the list. Or even Gretzky and Lemieux. You perceive Howe as the weakest member of the four because he made his debut the earliest and there is mostly only terrible looking, grainy, black and white footage to point to, but don’t stop and think how is career overlapped with Orr and Gretzky and he played his final season just 5 seasons before Mario made his debut (similar to the gap between Crosby/Ovechkin versus Gretzky’s final game).

What is your response to Howe at age 40 being 5th in goals, 3rd in assists, and 3rd in points, ahead of 28 year old Mikita in both raw points and PPG who has just won 4 of the previous 5 Art Rosses (and was 2nd the other time) and only behind 26 year old Esposito and 30 year old Hull during the season that Orr won his 2nd straight Norris and just one year before he would win the Art Ross.

Or that as a 51 year old, he managed to score 15 goals and average half a PPG during Gretzky’s rookie season and add a goal and an assist in three playoff games. Hell, he was officially 52 years old in his last regular season game ever and scored a goal and added an assist.

Utter nonsense to diminish Howe and act like he couldn’t hang in any era.

If you dismiss him, have some stones and wave away everything the current Big Four did.

Sincerely,

One of the biggest McDavid marks on this forum who firmly believes he remolds the Big Four into a new Big Five where arguments can be reasonably made why he is higher.

This but he should also wave away everything Crosby/Ovi did since Mario was on the same ice as them in the league and showed that he could still do just fine, so that per default should tell you that the league 18 years ago was a joke.

If we conclude that McDavid is indeed the greatest player ever, where does that place players like Kucherov or Draisaitl are they the 2nd and 3rd most advanced players of all time?

 

[Video Nasty]

Your point is valid and I admit my post that you quoted was taking the piss a little bit.

My own favorite calculation to make the point that you're making is to point out that an old and broken down Mario Lemieux was leading the league in scoring for 3/4 of the year in 2002/03 until he got hurt and still finished 8th with 91 points in 67 games. That season Joe Thornton scored 101 points, the same Joe Thornton who scored 125 points in Crosby/Ovis' rookie year.

So yes, if you do that kind of math, the players of old aren't scrubs. But, I want to start eroding the arguments for Howe over McDavid.

Eye test? Nope
Quality of competition? Nope
Raw totals? Nope
Achievements? I mean, for now but 5 scoring titles in 8 years vs 6 in 17?

I hate the protective barrier around Howe that prevents him from being challenged by McDavid when we know damn well we are witnessing something more special than anything that happened in the 1950s.

I use that Lemieux example frequently, so I’m pretty familiar with it. The average player from back then might not hack it now, but I’ve always firmly felt that the cream of the crop could make it in any era.

I’m mainly commenting how it isn’t necessary to pull down players to make the case for someone like McDavid. He’s well on his way to making that case just fine on his own.

Actually, I wrote some long winded essay in this thread where I essentially said that we’re all either too nostalgia or too caught up in the moment, and that as we age, unless someone is self aware and doesn’t want this to happen, people get stuck in their beliefs and won’t let themselves be budged, especially if an event happened during their personal glory years.

We’re drawing the best conclusions we can while looking at someone working on just his eighth season. It’s an accomplishment all in itself that we’re already at the point where other people can conceive of him being #5 at worst with health without them rolling their eyes.

In the end, I can easily see McDavid making a case for second best ever. It could even get more interesting than that if he ages in a way we don’t expect and somehow goes higher from here.

I just don’t think it’s necessary to drag the past and if one does find it necessary, then they should be consistent and pull down everyone.

 

[Fantomas]

Excluding this year, '20-21 is the only McDavid season of peak Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr-quality offensive production. And that's a short season. Howe in '52-53 is also better than anything Connor's done.

So Connor still has some work to do. I doubt he'll ever reach the offensive peaks set by the first three guys. He might eclipse Howe, but let's remember that Howe brought more to the table than just offense.

On the other hand, one could argue that McDavid's production has to be understood in the context of this time: a larger, more diverse, more global NHL than ever before. His dominance is therefore very special.

Regardless, he's on his way to cementing himself as top-5 all time. He has to just keep doing what he's doing.