Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[authentic]

What "you" think and what actually happened are two different things. All I know is Gretzky destroyed anything Mcdavid has done and it's not even close. It's a given he would be better because we knew he was unobjectively better than his contemporaries to a higher degree than Mcdavid. I don't care how much "skill" he has as far as speed and stick handling. It doesn't mean jack shit if he's less effective than Gretzky in comparison.

No it's not a given. They play in very different leagues. Gretzky himself would tell you this and not just to be humble either, he tells it like it is which I have massive respect for.

He is literally not less effective than Gretzky judging on actual skill level, only on a relative basis and there are a lot more factors to consider there than their talent levels.

It's more or less a guarantee he would still be an elite player, the game hasn't changed enough to say he wouldn't be. If you think it's a guarantee Wayne Gretzky would be far ahead of Connor McDavid in scoring right now I think that's just insane to be honest.

 

[Beukeboom]

How would that make any difference? Dude went largely untouched most of his career.

His style was a perfect fit for that era because he was a master at slowing the game down and using all the time and space to his advantage. His hockey sense worked perfectly in that setting and allowed him to really dominate.

McDavid today is a master at creating time and space by simply outskating and outskilling everyone in a far faster and more skilled game.

Not saying he wouldn't be great today or even possibly the best but it's not a given he would be slaughtering McDavid in the scoring race like some believe and I'd even say that would've been extremely unlikely even if he grew up with all of todays advantages.

I think a lot of you attack the Gretzky conundrum from the wrong angle. Gretzky's greatest skill was his brain and how he used it to utilize whatever crack or opportunity in the current conditions there was. He would have modified his game to suit whichever era he played in to a degree I'm certain no other player would be close to.

When people say McDavid might be the most talented/skilled hockey player ever it's because they value skating more than say adaptability. Speed is one ability among many.

Wayne had crap joints and a broken back, on top of being a pretty skinny 36-37 years old, with Niklas Sundstrom as the second best player in the team, but still ended up top 3 and 5 in the scoring race in the middle of the dead puck era. Crosby who's a physical freak of a specimen is nowhere near top 3 in scoring despite being "only" 35.

 

[CN8]

You really think one day they'll look back at McDavid and call him slow? I seriously doubt that lol

The NHL used to be a much slower paced game with long shifts and heavy equipment. The fastest skaters from the 80s are basically as fast as now, look at Mike Gartner's record at the skills competition when he was 36 that held until a few years ago and was only broken by a running start. The game evolved massively between 1980 and 1995 and sure it will still improve but I don't think anyone is looking back at McDavid in 2070 and calling him a slower player, although there will be many more McDavid's and probably a few who are even better and slightly faster.

Thanks for that info, I was honestly wondering myself on an individual bases if the fastest guys now were clocking in at a faster speed just straight up on time.
I was thinking of sprinting the new limit is reached every few years again

 

[a mangy Meowth]

3rd 4th or 5th imo

 

[SML2]

The thing that makes the GOATS the GOATS is that their achievements actually happened. They aren't potential. They aren't projected stats. They played the games and put up the points. McDavid certainly has the skills to join them, but pump the brakes. Why the rush? Just see how it unfolds and the argument will settle itself.
I watched Lindros come into the league. He looked like he wasn't just going to go on the Hockey Mount Rushmore, he was going to turn the whole mountain to rubble. Then, what happened, happened, and what was supposed to happen never did.

The GOATS stay the GOATS until someone actually does it better.

 

[authentic]

Thanks for that info, I was honestly wondering myself on an individual bases if the fastest guys now were clocking in at a faster speed just straight up on time.
I was thinking of sprinting the new limit is reached every few years again

I mean you would almost think so by how much faster the game looks, and to be fair it is mostly full of faster players than decades past and played at a faster pace which made it's biggest leap when hockey transitioned from longer to shorter shifts, but like I said Mike Gartner's record from 1996 holds up with recent times very well.

NHL All-Star Skills Competition - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to this he was also clocked at 45.22 km in 1990, and McDavid during a game with the puck on his stick at his fastest that I recall was clocked at 44.6? It was 44. something anyway.

 

[CN8]

I mean you would almost think so by how much faster the game looks, and to be fair it is mostly full of faster players than decades past and played at a faster pace which made it's biggest leap when hockey transitioned from longer to shorter shifts, but like I said Mike Gartner's record from 1996 holds up with recent times very well.

NHL All-Star Skills Competition - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to this he was also clocked at 45.22 km in 1990, and McDavid during a game with the puck on his stick at his fastest that I recall was clocked at 44.6? It was 44. something anyway.

Probably the same idea with hardest shot. The top guys from the 80s aren’t far behind but what’s crazy in todays game is almost everyone can rip the puck with the new sticks

 

[Coffey]

Until he wins a cup he is the Dan Marino of Hockey.

Hey that's pretty good when searching best QBs of all time.

 

[authentic]

Probably the same idea with hardest shot. The top guys from the 80s aren’t far behind but what’s crazy in todays game is almost everyone can rip the puck with the new sticks

Exactly. I'm pretty sure Bobby Hull could shoot the puck as hard as anyone with those 60s sticks

 

[toddkaz]

Hey that's pretty good when searching best QBs of all time.

View attachment 658542

Amazing stats and never won a super bowl so you never hear his name when it comes to the best.

 

[wetcoast]

You’ve never heard of the rivalry between Howe and Richard? Not saying they personally hated each other but the media was pumping it up like Crosby and Ovie. They like faced each other 4 years in a row in the Finals. Always neck and neck for the Art Ross.

I'd have to go back and look but I don't recall them being neck and neck for the art Ross.

English Canada also doesn't have a minority complex in hockey.

People in Montreal riotted because Richard got suspended and they said it was so Howe could win the Art Ross.

Howe wasn't even in the Art Ross race that year 54-55 Richard was in a race with 2 team mates both Quebecois.

I also am a student of history and the whole Quebecois thing was mostly internally driven and frankly is a bit insulting when they went to great lengths to compare themselves to the treatments of African Americans which is a false equivalency but sure some in Quebec might see this in hockey terms.

the hockey sweater epitomizes this.

The Hockey Sweater - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[WarriorofTime]

Until he wins a cup he is the Dan Marino of Hockey.

In my opinion, he won't win a Cup until he leaves Edmonton. 25 or 26 organizations would have already built a winner around him by now. Edmonton is unfortunately one of the least skilled organizations in all of pro sports and they have done a poor job.

 

[CrazyJoeDavola]

Ken Holland will have something to say about him ascending to this tier.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Is it a hot take to say I think McDavid could win the Art Ross over Gretzky if Gretzky played today? The biggest difference is skating. McDavid is a much faster skater and when Gretzky played, skating was at less of a premium because the sport was very up and down as opposed to "total hockey", there were quite a fair NHLers back then that weren't great skaters.

I think if they were contemporaries they'd likely go back and forth on Art Ross Trophies depending on the season. One guy would get it one year, the other guy the next. I think it's a bit naive to think Gretzky runs away with it every single year.

In his mid to late 30's he easily outscored peak Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Selanne and Bure in the 90s.

None of those guys were as good as McDavid.

 

[kugelbahn]

Its too early to tell, he could go either way, we need to see next few years first.

Not talking about Cups, for those needs to be on right team at the right time, just regular season production.

Look at Crosby:
18-22 yrs old had five 100 pts seasons, one 50 goals season, top 5 all-time projections.
Gets injuries, loses peak production,
23-35 yrs old has two 100 pts seasons, no 50 goals seasons.

Ovechkin: age 20-24 yrs old had four 100 pts seasons, four 50 goals seasons.
Age 25-26 (same peak age as McD now), goes into "slump", couple of 30 goals seasons,
for sure out of top 10 all-time conversation.
Age 27-37 gets seven! Rockets, five 50 goals seasons, back in top 10 all-time fold.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

Until he wins a cup he is the Dan Marino of Hockey.

One player does not have the ability to change the destiny of a team like football or basketball. I'd say he is the Marcel Dionne of hockey.

 

[RJMA]

None of those guys were as good as McDavid.

Playoff Forsberg was nothing to f*** with.

 

[Video Nasty]

Playoff Forsberg was nothing to f*** with.

Especially when he was on a good enough team to withstand him not playing the final two rounds of a Cup winning run.

Or the next year where he missed the entire regular season yet the Avs were 2nd in the West without him. If the team isn’t good enough, he’s not given the chance to lead the playoffs in scoring despite not making the Finals.

My point is, a player needs a real team around them to be given the opportunity to perform their magic.

In what realm are the Oilers making the playoffs or winning the back half of a playoff run en route to a Cup without McDavid?

 

[toddkaz]

One player does not have the ability to change the destiny of a team like football or basketball. I'd say he is the Marcel Dionne of hockey.

You mean like Mark Messier guaranteeing a win? Ya, sure.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

You mean like Mark Messier guaranteeing a win? Ya, sure.

He had a 50/50 chance. Other players have predicted wins and all you can remember is Messier. You know why? The rest have been wrong. So that theory sucks,

I guaranteed Canada would win the gold at the 2010 Olympics. I guess I won it for them. Crosby's goal..meh. Helpful. but it was the guarantee that obviously did it lol.

 

[toddkaz]

He had a 50/50 chance. Other players have predicted wins and all you can remember is Messier. You know why? The rest have been wrong. So that theory sucks,

I guaranteed Canada would win the gold at the 2010 Olympics. I guess I won it for them. Crosby's goal..meh. Helpful. but it was the guarantee that obviously did it lol.

Cause Mark Messier won cups. Remember the guys who didn't?

Ya, neither do I.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

Cause Mark Messier won cups. Remember the guys who didn't?

Ya, neither do I.

Yeah, of course I do. Lots of them. I literally referenced Dionne to start this conversation lol. This is getting too weird.

 

[HFpapi]

so whos hes going to over take? Gretzky? Orr? Lemieux? Howe? which ones?

Gretzky, no. Hence why I didn't even mention him in the OP and said max 2nd best. Bobby and Super Mario? Certainly am not claiming the likelihood is high, I was being a bit provocative in the title saying "will go down as" rather than "could potentially."

That said, I don't think it's impossible given what we've seen from McDavid so far. Connor can exploit their lack of games played if everything goes right for him. I'm talking roughly 8 Rosses, 6 Harts, 1800-2000 points and likely a cup is needed too. I think that would be a better career than either Orr or Lemieux even if his peak isn't quite as high. Can we honestly say that's not possible for McDavid? As of now it looks very achievable in fact.

Howe? I actually think it's very possible to pass Howe and I will be so bold as to say that I consider it more likely than not that McDavid passes Howe.

I'll assign percentages.

Chances McDavid passes the following:

Gretzky: 0%
Lemieux: 5-10%
Orr: 5-10%
Howe: 60%
Crosby: 90%

 

[BTP]

He's at over 100 points as a CENTER against everybody's top D and top lines. Good lord. What would he be scoring as a winger, with less responsibility, on the second line?

 

[Son Goku]

No it's not a given. They play in very different leagues. Gretzky himself would tell you this and not just to be humble either, he tells it like it is which I have massive respect for.

He is literally not less effective than Gretzky judging on actual skill level, only on a relative basis and there are a lot more factors to consider there than their talent levels.

It's more or less a guarantee he would still be an elite player, the game hasn't changed enough to say he wouldn't be. If you think it's a guarantee Wayne Gretzky would be far ahead of Connor McDavid in scoring right now I think that's just insane to be honest.

It's a guarantee because nobody before or since gretzky has ever come close to him. That's a fact. It's not a "what if" based on a hundred different objective arguments. What we know is that Gretzky is undeniably the most dominant hockey player of all time and nobody has ever came close to his heights regardless of fancy dekes or speed.