Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Random Comment]

Gretzky never had the best skating stickhandling or shooting.


You're not really understanding why Gretzky was considered the best by a landslide, but it wasn't his raw skills.

No I do understand. I think it had something to do with stand up goalies, players who smoked and drank in the locker rooms, and the talent pool the NHL drew from along with the general quality of players in the NHL on 3rd and 4th lines.

Gretzky was ahead of his time.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

No I do understand. I think it had something to do with stand up goalies, players who smoked and drank in the locker rooms, and the talent pool the NHL drew from along with the general quality of players in the NHL on 3rd and 4th lines.

Gretzky was ahead of his time.

In his mid to late 30's he easily outscored peak Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Selanne and Bure in the 90s.


When he was 36 he outscored guys who took their games into the Crosby era... like Joe Sakic, Jarome Iginla, and Teemu Selanne.


(You know guys that also finished top-10 in scoring in the Crosby/Ovechkin era).



Gretzky >>>>>> Sakic, Forsberg, Selanne.


You know.. guys that also finished top-10 scoring in this era. Gretzky was a universe better than.



Remember Joe Sakic??

Look who dunked 163 points on a 100-point Joe Sakic.
And look who dunked 120 points on an old and hobbled in a rocking chair Joe-Sakic.

BTW

Gretzky used a wooden stick to beat Hasek when he was in his late 30's. exactly like he beat those 80's goalies (You know.. guys like Patrick Roy).



Was Hasek one of those easy to score on "standing goalies"?

 

[Coffey]

In a vacuum, Travis Konecny is a better hockey player than Howe

This made me laugh irl
Not because of how absurd it is, but because how realistically true it may be

 

[EK392000]

They are not untouchables at all in the sense you would have people believe they were just really damn great and hockey has been played for quite awhile so it's kinda logical the greatest players doesn't really have to be active at this very moment. That said McDavid is the best player I have seen since at the very least peak Jagr and probably even abit better than that and if he keeps up what he has been doing for a handful of more years he could very well be on his way to the top tier of all time greats.

Below Gretzky of course, he was just different and hey maybe part of it it was a perfect storm with the league scoring, time he entered, team etc but doesnt change that the things did happen. Just like there is probably a couple of players active now who would get way more talk being on winning teams. Then again McDavid in turn might have a favorable position if you compare him to Ovi/Crosby who had to compete with eachother and in lower league scoring enviorment, larger goalie pads etc+we have obviously seen their decline- perhaps McDavid will have "generational" longveity at his best aswell we just don't know yet.

Lemieux+Orr atleast have glaring "issues" with their careers so it's possible, although not likely, that McDavid could pass them based on overall career- matching them for peak is not something I see. But that would require a cup or two in addition to racking up a couple of more seasons like this one.

Can't really speak for Howe since I didn't see him play much.

Compare to another sport like say, the world's largest, football in which Pelé has been the more or less undisputed GOAT but that has just recently changed with Messi.

It's bound to happen sooner or later but that doesn't mean it have to happen today, in 10 or heck even 50 years but it will happen. Sooner or later you will have a player with both the talent and fortune to rival Gretzky and while McDavid is certainly up there he is not all that close for me, I mean if Oilers go on a 3 year cup spree and he racks up a couple of Smythe's + 3 more Harts after this one, who knows?

I remember 10 years ago on here when Crosby was "as good as a player can possibly be in todays league" and now McDavid have shown that was a false narrative. Imagine a player like McDavid that is simply abit better at utilizing his team mates and able to pot an extra assist every 3rd game or so and you have a real contender as long as that fictive player does it for a decade or so.

We are in agreement.

I just think that some people, particularly people that got to watch the greats play, might have their reasoning skewed by the fact that they are reminiscing. It doesn't seem like you are one of those people.

We see this all the time in the GOAT debate in basketball. MJ is remembered for being great, but he's put on such a high pedestal that even someone as good as LeBron couldn't touch him. Statistically, LeBron is better but that doesn't stop people from dying on the MJ hill.

 

[Peltz]

I didn’t exist during the Howe era, but I find that anybody who played in the 50’s are nowhere near the fitness and skill level of todays game. Extrapolating what he would’ve done today is just unreasonable given the multitude of factors.

Agreed. It is comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

Crosby had a higher PPG than Benn that season.

Lol....by like 0.03 PPG. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.
Benn had 59 even strength points to Crosby's 53. Sid padded his totals with power play points too, 31-23.

Also, if Tyler Seguin had played as many games as Crosby that year, he would have tied him in points.

Fact is, Crosby lost the scoring race that year. None of the typical Crosby, shoulda, coulda, wouldas change that.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

You probably won't find a bigger advocate for Gordie Howe on HFBoards. That being said, there's a possibility that McDavid surpasses him. Some points to consider:

• Howe had four seasons where he obliterated everyone in the scoring race. McDavid is working on his second. McDavid could eventually equal or surpass Howe's peak, but he pretty clearly hasn't done so yet. (People have no understanding of how good Howe was at his peak. At one point, he had the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th highest-scoring seasons in NHL history).
• In terms of "trophy cases", Howe was a Hart trophy finalist 12 times (with six wins). McDavid has two wins (presumably three after this season) and has been a finalist four times (five after this season). McDavid did it a larger league, but that's still a huge gap.
• Howe was a very good defensive player, and was a power forward. McDavid is adequate defensively, and non-physical. This is an edge that very likely won't go away.
• Howe was a great playoff performer (best or maybe second best of his era). At one point he held the record for highest-scoring playoff run in NHL history, and also the career playoff points record. McDavid's playoff resume is still being written. He's been in the playoffs twice and has two great performances, and two disappointing ones.
• Howe was a top five scorer 20 times. He was a first- or second-team all-star 21 times. He placed in the top five in Hart voting 16 times. He has immense career value and (still to this day) holds the all-time record for most points with a single franchise (1,809). McDavid is 26 and isn't close in career value as of today.

Can McDavid eventually surpass all this? Yes, it's possible. But there have been plenty of players who have been "on pace" for things in their mid-20's. Bobby Orr had eight Norris trophies, two Conn Smythes, two Art Rosses and three Harts just after his 27th birthday; he never added anything of substance after that. Mario Lemieux has four Art Ross trophies, three Harts and two Conn Smythes when he was 27; he only added a few more trophies after that. Even Gordie Howe, at age 28, had five Art Ross trophies (he only won one more in 15+ years), four Stanley Cups (he never won another), and he already had three of his six Hart trophies. Someone around back then probably could have expected him to win 10 Art Ross trophies and seven or eight Harts, and that didn't happen. Exceptional performances are harder to maintain over time.

McDavid could eventually challenge Howe (and Lemieux and Orr, both of whom I rank lower). He's had an extraordinary start at age 26. But because so much of this depends on how well he ages, it's (essentially) impossible for us to say whether McDavid will surpass Howe, based on what we know today. He has a chance, and even if it's a small one, that's still incredibly impressive.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Nobody is ever going to put up the numbers Gretzky did. Nobody. Circumstances are different now. So relatively speaking, there is no debate.

That doesn’t mean there aren’t better players than Gretzky. From an absolute stand point, Mcdavid is a much more talented player than Gretzky was. There are many in this era who are. People get all confused when they argue, but need to keep this separation in mind.

Give Mcdavid the same gear Gretzky had and compare them getting around the ice, passing, stickhandling, and shooting. It would be Mcdavid by a landslide.

How many points do you think Gretzky would put up in todays league? I have a hard time believing there would be too many players putting up more points, if any.

 

[Dingo]

In his mid to late 30's he easily outscored peak Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Selanne and Bure in the 90s.


When he was 36 he outscored guys who took their games into the Crosby era... like Joe Sakic, Jarome Iginla, and Teemu Selanne.


(You know guys that also finished top-10 in scoring in the Crosby/Ovechkin era).



Gretzky >>>>>> Sakic, Forsberg, Selanne.


You know.. guys that also finished top-10 scoring in this era. Gretzky was a universe better than.



Remember Joe Sakic??

View attachment 658252

Look who dunked 163 points on a 100-point Joe Sakic.
And look who dunked 120 points on an old and hobbled in a rocking chair Joe-Sakic.

View attachment 658253

These stats are Gretzky at 30.

Your post is implying that Gretzky did this at 36.

The top scorers in the league were better than Gretzky in his last 3 seasons, on a per game basis, especially but Gretzky was amongst them, much like Crosby is now.

Gretzky was dominant in his prime, and competitive in his mid late thirties.

 

[snag]

It sure seems like every effort is made by some ensure the sanctitude of the historic greats is preserved.

(i hate these combining posts)....

These stats are Gretzky at 30.

Your post is implying that Gretzky did this at 36.

The top scorers in the league were better than Gretzky in his last 3 seasons, on a per game basis, especially but Gretzky was amongst them, much like Crosby is now.

Gretzky was dominant in his prime, and competitive in his mid late thirties.

Aging is a bitch.

 

[Random Comment]

In his mid to late 30's he easily outscored peak Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Selanne and Bure in the 90s.


When he was 36 he outscored guys who took their games into the Crosby era... like Joe Sakic, Jarome Iginla, and Teemu Selanne.


(You know guys that also finished top-10 in scoring in the Crosby/Ovechkin era).



Gretzky >>>>>> Sakic, Forsberg, Selanne.


You know.. guys that also finished top-10 scoring in this era. Gretzky was a universe better than.



Remember Joe Sakic??

View attachment 658252

Look who dunked 163 points on a 100-point Joe Sakic.
And look who dunked 120 points on an old and hobbled in a rocking chair Joe-Sakic.

View attachment 658253

And McDavid is significantly better than all those guys you’ve listed im not sure your point .

How many points do you think Gretzky would put up in todays league? I have a hard time believing there would be too many players putting up more points, if any.

Not as many as Mcdavid

 

[psycat]

Great argument

Don't need a great argument to refute a stupid claim.

 

[psycat]

Did you read the post you're replying too?

I did but Pelé and the Rocket are not comparable in my mind.

 

[CycloneSweep]

He is the best player since Mario, that at least, is not debatable imho

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

McDavid has Gretzky's vision/playmaking ability? Lemieux's hands/goalscoring ability?

Don't let your opinion pain you. You're flat out wrong.

I watched them all in their primes (Gretzky being my favourite player ever). I am going to rank them over the course of their career, not just peak, understanding that McDavid is probably peaking right now.

Here is how I will rank them as fairly as I can, based on your comment:

Vision:
Gretzky 10/10
Lemieux 9/10
McDavid 8.5/10

Playmaking:
Gretzky 10/10
Lemieux 8.5/10
McDavid 9/10

Hands:
Gretzky 9/10
Lemieux 10/10
McDavid 9/10 (did you see his penalty shot the other night - whoa)

Goalscoring:
Greztky 8.5/10 (based on his 92 goal era where goalies were meh)
Lemieux 9/10
McDavid 8/10 (and improving)

I noticed you purposely left out the most important qualities McDavid possesses, though. So add on...

Skating speed:
Gretzky 7/10
Lemieux 8/10
McDavid 10/10

Creating space with the puck with speed:
Gretzky 8/10
Lemieux 9.5/10
McDavid 10/10

Also important when comparing players on pure ability (not on legacy or "all-time" purposes, but just for who has the most skill).

NHL Goaltending:
1984 6/10
1991 7/10
2023 9.5/10 (overall better than 20 years ago, but with fewer Haseks and Roys)

NHL Defence:
1984 5/10
1991 7/10
2023 9/10 (It was better 15 years ago in my opinion)

Shot:
Gretzky 8/10
Lemieux 9/10
McDavid 8.5/10 but improving

It's close, but those last qualities, in my opinion, make McDavid the most skilled player of all time when comparing peaks and competition.

That does not mean he is the greatest of all time yet in terms of putting him in the top 5. I am just comparing ability, not intangibles. It's close. Real close.

 

[psycat]

Which is 100% true and fair. The all-time ranking exercise falls apart immediately if you don't place players in their proper historical context. In a vacuum, Travis Konecny is a better hockey player than Howe but we know it would be very stupid to claim he's therefore better in an all-time sense.

The issue that I have is the pendulum swings so far the other way that we only consider their own era and then build up and mythologize players from the past to the point we close the door on the idea McDavid could ever be better than Howe.

McDavid will likely match and then surpass Howes' 6 scoring titles and most other achievements which is even more impressive when you factor in the discrepancy in competition levels.

"David Konecny is a better hockey player than Howe" Is he though? I think people on here underrate players of the past in terms of pure ability. I think a peak Gretzky with, say, a preseason of adjustment would eclipse 190pts this season I mean if you transported him a time machine and put modern equipment on him.

The good old argument is of course that we saw Jagr compete well into his 40s with the modern super players of today and he was several levels below Gretzky for overlapping careers.

I agree that it's harder comparing to players like Howe(simply due to the fact that it's longer ago and in a smaller league) but they practiced back then aswell and at the end of the day a human can only skate so much, lift so much etc. Doubt Patrick Kane is stronger in the body than Howe was for example and he has done fine.

Think people get tricked by modern equiptment and tv production more than by actual on ice ability and in the case of relatively modern players we have proof of it. Unless you believe humans wen't through a stage of evolution in the last 40 years(is your dad a neanderthal or something?) I don't see how it holds up.

If anything a softer more skill focused game like today would make #99 stand out even more, I didn't personally see Howe play(other than clips) so I can't judge that but I suspect it would be the same, granted I could be wrong but considering his career already spanned atleast a couple of hockey generations and he adapted fine logic follows he would.

 

[PensandCaps]

He might end up 1st if he passes/gets close to Gretzky in Rosses/Harts/Lindsay

But the best and greatest player to play the sport of hockey is Mario Lemieux

The 2001 season is for me his most amazing. 76 pts in 43 games in the dead puck era coming off three years of being retired. He was better than 2023 Mcdavid by a significant margin

Mcdavid would be Draisaitl to Lemieux

He did that at like 35 too lol. Did what prime McDavid is currently doing, while coming back from not playing for years and battling cancer mixed with career lingering injuries.

It's insane just how good Mario was. He would be a monster in today's game at 6'5 along with all the skill in the world.

 

[Neutrinos]

There's not enough facepalm memes on the interwebs for this one

If you didn't see Gretzky play, particularly in his prime, there's no shame in saying so.

Not only did I see him play, I also saw the cigarette smoking alcoholics who he played against, along with the fish-out-of-water goaltenders with horsehair in their pads who he scored on

 

[markymarc1215]

Can we just give people credit where credit is due? With respect to some overlapping:

Howe was the best in his generation.
Orr was the best in his generation. Gretzky was the best in his generation. Lemieux was the at or near the best in his generation.
Crosby and Ovechkin are the best in their generation.
McDavid is the best in his generation.

You cannot fault or hold it against a player for doing nothing short of dominating play during the time they played, regardless of what the league structure was at that time.

 

[ElysiumAB]

Howe was fitter/stronger than 99% of players who played today

Truly a man amongst fish.

 

[McJedi]

I think you're a bit too extreme in your view, don't think we have to discredit the players of old, they deserve their due for their dominance relative to their era and peers.

That said, the balance as far as comparing across eras is clearly too heavily skewed in favour of players from decades ago. Suggesting that Howe is untouchable for a player as dominant as Mcdavid is a crazy take IMO hence why I made the thread.

When Howe played, the league was comprised of only Canadian players when Canada had about 16 million people. That would be like a league today being comprised of only players born in the Netherlands. Howe didn't have Germans, Russians, Czechs, Swedes, or even really Americans chasing him down in the scoring race.

McDavid is currently being trailed by a German, a Russian, an American, a Czech, an American again, a Swede, another Swede, an American again, and then a Canadian 39 points back.

Look. As long as the conversation on Orr and Howe account for the lack of competitiveness of the NHL in their era, I can chat about how to rank them.

This idea that their status is unassailable is BS to me. As you and I both point out. McDavid played against much much better competition than anyone before him not named Crosby. And vastly inferior competition landscape that Orr and Howe dominated. Or the Habs for that matter.

That stuff matters a lot in these convos. You can’t just wave the hand and say Orr and Howe are the greatest. The end.

I call some BS on that.

I’m still ranking it my way.

Gretzky
Mario
McDavid (he’s incredible and I can’t stand the Oilers)
Orr
Crosby (only because he’s got a cool name)
Radek Bonk

 

[tarheelhockey]

Hopefully this hasn't already been posted upthread -- apologies if it has.

This excellent thread contains data on VsX, a system developed on the History board to compare players across different scoring environments. In brief, instead of "adjusting" stats, we look at how far a player outran his competition. This is, by all indications, the best tool available for conversations like the one we're having right now.

Last season was Connor McDavid's 7th in the NHL. This post contains VsX data through 7th seasons, which is a perfect data set for comparing McDavid to the rest of history not including what he has done this season.

Wayne Gretzky	145.0
Connor McDavid	104.5
Phil Esposito	103.3
Howie Morenz	102.2
Gordie Howe	98.0
Mario Lemieux	97.0
Jean Beliveau	96.1
Bill Cook	94.9
Charlie Conacher	93.6
Bobby Orr	93.4
Mike Bossy	92.9
Andy Bathgate	91.6
Alex Ovechkin	91.3
Sweeney Schriner	90.4
Bryan Trottier	89.7
Sidney Crosby	89.7

That speaks for itself. McDavid's number will actually get better in his 8th season because he will finish with a ludicrously large lead over the rest of the field.

Of course there are other factors such as defensive play and playoff performance. But as a regular season scorer, yes he is the 2nd best of all time through this point in his career.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

so whos hes going to over take? Gretzky? Orr? Lemieux? Howe? which ones?

Orr and Howe

 

[authentic]

I watched them all in their primes (Gretzky being my favourite player ever). I am going to rank them over the course of their career, not just peak, understanding that McDavid is probably peaking right now.

Here is how I will rank them as fairly as I can, based on your comment:

Vision:
Gretzky 10/10
Lemieux 9/10
McDavid 8.5/10

Playmaking:
Gretzky 10/10
Lemieux 8.5/10
McDavid 9/10

Hands:
Gretzky 9/10
Lemieux 10/10
McDavid 9/10 (did you see his penalty shot the other night - whoa)

Goalscoring:
Greztky 8.5/10 (based on his 92 goal era where goalies were meh)
Lemieux 9/10
McDavid 8/10 (and improving)

I noticed you purposely left out the most important qualities McDavid possesses, though. So add on...

Skating speed:
Gretzky 7/10
Lemieux 8/10
McDavid 10/10

Creating space with the puck with speed:
Gretzky 8/10
Lemieux 9.5/10
McDavid 10/10

Also important when comparing players on pure ability (not on legacy or "all-time" purposes, but just for who has the most skill).

NHL Goaltending:
1984 6/10
1991 7/10
2023 9.5/10 (overall better than 20 years ago, but with fewer Haseks and Roys)

NHL Defence:
1984 5/10
1991 7/10
2023 9/10 (It was better 15 years ago in my opinion)

Shot:
Gretzky 8/10
Lemieux 9/10
McDavid 8.5/10 but improving

It's close, but those last qualities, in my opinion, make McDavid the most skilled player of all time when comparing peaks and competition.

That does not mean he is the greatest of all time yet in terms of putting him in the top 5. I am just comparing ability, not intangibles. It's close. Real close.

I would even bump that skating speed up .5 before his back problems. Look how fast he was here.

 

[Son Goku]

He won't pass Lemieux.