Connor McDavid: 150 Points Watch (32GP: 53 Points - 135.8 Pace (1.66 PPG))

[psycat]

I'm not really sure I see how Crosby is behind those handful others. Especially Beliveau -- who most people have top 10 (some even at nr.5). You say like Beliveau better because of his superior goal scoring -- But Crosby is about to pass him in all time goals, in fewer games played. So he has him beat in G/gp and raw totals. Crosby also has him beat in PO points (but about 10 goals less). Crosby has more top-3 art ross finishes and top 3 hart finishes.

They would have the same amount of rockets (had the award existed during all of Beliveaus career). Probably the same amount of Conn smythes (Crosby has him 2-1 now, but it didn't exist for all of Beliveaus career). So, honestly the case for Crosby is a little bit stronger -- yet you still have Beliveau in your B-tier of players, and Crosby in the C-tier. Makes no sense.

Again, the case for Crosby at 5th all time is just as compelling (if not more) as any of the ones you rank ahead.

Shorter seasons = less career goals, Crosby while having two Rockets(which is great but mostly due to sheer luck having his goalscoring peaks in Ovechkins downyears) had way lower scoring finishes in general. Anyway I am not going to argue this forever since it's close either way but that's the point there are like 20players that have a case over Crosby(more if you value peak heavily) and that's not counting the 4 obvious ones and Jagr, Hasek, Hull, Ovechkin, Bourque who are comfortably ahead in my book.

Take Bourque as example for me being the second greatest defenceman beats being a debatable top 7 center any day.

Crosby will never pass Jagr in career points or goals and they played in roughly similiar scoring enviorment and the whole case for Crosby above Jagr is concistency/longveity so no sense, at all. And if you play the "ppg" card, Jagr won Ross playing 60 games or so.

 

[Darren McCord]

Crosby will never pass Jagr in career points or goals and they played in roughly similiar scoring enviorment and the whole case for Crosby above Jagr is concistency/longveity so no sense, at all. And if you play the "ppg" card, Jagr won Ross playing 60 games or so.

Jagr is tough. Honestly if Jagr didn't leave for three seasons there is a chance he passes Gretzky in goals. If Jagr was Canadien and didn't act like a prima dona he would be top 5 maybe number 3. The guy is so underrated and talked about because of his attitude.

He also lost 2 seasons to lockouts.

 

[Beljavskij]

Forsberg would have been in the Crosby tier if he had a full career, which again is not a point in Crosbys favor, simply to many players that matched his peak.

C'mon man. You are really going out of your way to bring Crosby down.

Forsberg was a great player but he is not better than Crosby. Forsberg scored over 100 points twice in his whole career. Crosby did it six times. Forsberg never scored more than 30 goals in a season. Crosby scored over 3o goals nine (9) times! It's not really close.

 

[Beljavskij]

Shorter seasons = less career goals, Crosby while having two Rockets(which is great but mostly due to sheer luck having his goalscoring peaks in Ovechkins downyears) had way lower scoring finishes in general. Anyway I am not going to argue this forever since it's close either way but that's the point there are like 20players that have a case over Crosby(more if you value peak heavily) and that's not counting the 4 obvious ones and Jagr, Hasek, Hull, Ovechkin, Bourque who are comfortably ahead in my book.

Take Bourque as example for me being the second greatest defenceman beats being a debatable top 7 center any day.

Crosby will never pass Jagr in career points or goals and they played in roughly similiar scoring enviorment and the whole case for Crosby above Jagr is concistency/longveity so no sense, at all. And if you play the "ppg" card, Jagr won Ross playing 60 games or so.

Meh. I don't buy your arguments.

What was a season back then? 70 games? With the amount of injuries Crosby sustained, he averages 65 g/season not counting this one. So they seem pretty similar in that regard. I mean two rockets is two rockets -- was he only competing against Ovechkin?? Also Crosby best goal scoring season was cut short by injury. It's fairly certain he has another 50+ goals season if he plays the full 82 games.

It's not clear cut that Ovechkin is like a consensus top-10 player. You can make an argument for him being the 5th best winger behind Howe, Hull, Richard, Jagr. Also the center position is by far the most competitive of all. I don't think anyone but you would put Crosby as the 7th best center of all time. Gretz, Lemieux, maybe Beliveau, maybe Morenz?? At worst Top 5. But he really has a case for Top 3. Above any winger not named Howe.

 

[psycat]

Meh. I don't buy your arguments.

What was a season back then? 70 games? With the amount of injuries Crosby sustained, he averages 65 g/season not counting this one. So they seem pretty similar in that regard. I mean two rockets is two rockets -- was he only competing against Ovechkin?? Also Crosby best goal scoring season was cut short by injury. It's fairly certain he has another 50+ goals season if he plays the full 82 games.

It's not clear cut that Ovechkin is like a consensus top-10 player. You can make an argument for him being the 5th best winger behind Howe, Hull, Richard, Jagr. Also the center position is by far the most competitive of all. I don't think anyone but you would put Crosby as the 7th best center of all time. Gretz, Lemieux, maybe Beliveau, maybe Morenz?? At worst Top 5. But he really has a case for Top 3. Above any winger not named Howe.

Maybe Messier, maybe Clarke, maybe Trottier then you have McDavid who is likely to pass him and other players(including his own team mate) who peaked just as high but got lesser careers of course also someone like Lindros who in my opinion was simply better at his peak(short as it was). Richard got no argument over anybody mentioned(infact he is the most overrated player of all time except maybe Doug Harvey). Ovechkin might be 4th winger of all time but he is also arguably the greatest goalscorer of all time and that counts for quite a lot in my book.

I am not so sure Crosby is in reality any better than Sakic(or Yzerman for that matter) was, maybe more accoladed but in terms of on ice-impact id take peak offensive Yzerman over any offensive version of Crosby and id take "playoff leader Sakic" over any "playoff leader Crosby" version.

Ovechkin is not really a clear cut top 10 player and still above Crosby so that's my take on it. And I am not even bringing goalies into this except Hasek(who is goat goalie for me) but a case could be made that Roy, Plante, Sawchuk, Brodeur should all be ranked higher than Crosby in my mind, but ill admit that ranking goalies compared to skaters is a quite futile prospect.

 

[psycat]

C'mon man. You are really going out of your way to bring Crosby down.

Forsberg was a great player but he is not better than Crosby. Forsberg scored over 100 points twice in his whole career. Crosby did it six times. Forsberg never scored more than 30 goals in a season. Crosby scored over 3o goals nine (9) times! It's not really close.

I never said he was better than Crosby? I said peak Forsberg is pretty comparable to peak Crosby, slightly worse of a goalscorer but better defensively. Of course Crosby demolishes him for career.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Maybe Messier, maybe Clarke, maybe Trottier then you have McDavid who is likely to pass him and other players(including his own team mate) who peaked just as high but got lesser careers of course also someone like Lindros who in my opinion was simply better at his peak(short as it was). Richard got no argument over anybody mentioned(infact he is the most overrated player of all time except maybe Doug Harvey). Ovechkin might be 4th winger of all time but he is also arguably the greatest goalscorer of all time and that counts for quite a lot in my book.

I am not so sure Crosby is in reality any better than Sakic(or Yzerman for that matter) was, maybe more accoladed but in terms of on ice-impact id take peak offensive Yzerman over any offensive version of Crosby and id take "playoff leader Sakic" over any "playoff leader Crosby" version.

Ovechkin is not really a clear cut top 10 player and still above Crosby so that's my take on it.

Horrible take but thanks for sharing

 

[Slimmy]

Forsberg would have been in the Crosby tier if he had a full career, which again is not a point in Crosbys favor, simply to many players that matched his peak.

When Peter was healthy he was a more dominant player than Jagr ever was. Just switched it to a whole new level in the playoffs

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

When Peter was healthy he was a more dominant player than Jagr ever was. Just switched it to a whole new level in the playoffs

Yeah, he was insane...I still do not think he gets enough credit and gets over shadowed by Sakic and Roy.

 

[frisco]

1) Peak Forsberg

2) God
3) Ditka




4) Gretzky
5) Mario

My Best-Carey

 

[frisco]

But as you say. The PP time must have been significant together. And was likely the most dangerous (and effective?) PP-unit in the 90s?

First couple of years Jagr wasn't on the PP much--Stevens, Recchi, Tocchet, Lemieux, Francis were all ahead of him. 92-93 Jags and Lemieux played together on the PP. 93-94 Lemieux barely played. 94-95 he didn't play. 95-96 and 96-97 they were together on the PP and then for half a season in 2000-2001. So, around four full seasons or so (out of eleven) Jagr and Lemieux were PP mates.

My Best-Carey

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Is he ahead of someone like Lidström, Shore, Messier, McDavid, Richard, Trottier etc? Not so sure.

I am sure you could make a case for Potvin, Mikita, Messier(I hate him fwiw) and so on over Crosby, heck Esposito is up there aswell and what about Shore? They can't all be top 10 players.

I agree with your general point that there are a bunch of players who have a case for the top ten all-time, and they can't all be included.

But what would be the argument for Trottier, Messier, or Mikita over Crosby? Crosby passed all of them years ago.

 

[Beljavskij]

Maybe Messier, maybe Clarke, maybe Trottier then you have McDavid who is likely to pass him and other players(including his own team mate) who peaked just as high but got lesser careers of course also someone like Lindros who in my opinion was simply better at his peak(short as it was). Richard got no argument over anybody mentioned(infact he is the most overrated player of all time except maybe Doug Harvey). Ovechkin might be 4th winger of all time but he is also arguably the greatest goalscorer of all time and that counts for quite a lot in my book.

I am not so sure Crosby is in reality any better than Sakic(or Yzerman for that matter) was, maybe more accoladed but in terms of on ice-impact id take peak offensive Yzerman over any offensive version of Crosby and id take "playoff leader Sakic" over any "playoff leader Crosby" version.

Ovechkin is not really a clear cut top 10 player and still above Crosby so that's my take on it. And I am not even bringing goalies into this except Hasek(who is goat goalie for me) but a case could be made that Roy, Plante, Sawchuk, Brodeur should all be ranked higher than Crosby in my mind, but ill admit that ranking goalies compared to skaters is a quite futile prospect.

Well if Mcdavid is likely to pass Crosby (he is pretty far away yet, but who knows) isn't he passing Ovechkin as well?

Also I'm not sure if you are talking about who is the BEST player or the GREATEST player or if you are switching between the two? You seem to value peak abnormally high. If we are only talking one season peak in goal scoring -- that would mean Ovechkin would be behind Gretzky (92 goal season), Lemieux (85 goal and 69 gin 60gp), Hull (86g season), Selanne (76 as a rookie). Hell if we are talking a one season scoring peak -- then Ovi wouldn't be the greatest goal scorer anymore.

You have to look at the whole body of work when comparing players otherwise the sample is just too small to make any conclusions.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

He was never really a stud in the playoffs without Lemieux.

Jagr gets underrated as a playoff performer. From 1995 to 2001 (his seven-year peak), he ranked 2nd in goals, 7th in assists, and 4th in points in the playoffs. On a per-game basis (min 30 games), he was 1st in goals per game, T-7th in assists per game, and 1st in points per game.

Before someone mentions Lemieux, Jagr and Lemieux collaborated on just 16 goals (out of the 95 that Jagr scored or assisted on).

You're right that Jagr never had a trip to the Stanley Cup finals where he was the best player. That's a strike against Jagr, but he was still a very good playoff performer, especially at this peak.

 

[Beljavskij]

Half the season played. McDavid 60P in 41GP. 1.46 PPG. 40 games remaining for McD. Keeping this pace will land him at 118p.

To reach 150p. He needs to have 90 in 40 games. That's a 2.25 ppg pace. This is pretty much out of the question at this point.
To reach 140p. He needs to have 80 in 40 games. 2.0 ppg pace. I don't think this is possible either.
To reach 129p (and beat Kucherovs best season). He needs to have 69p in 40g. 1.725 ppg pace. Not impossible, but very hard. For every one point game he has the rest of the season he needs to have have 2.5 point game to make up for it.

 

[Montreal Shadow]

Jagr is tough. Honestly if Jagr didn't leave for three seasons there is a chance he passes Gretzky in goals. If Jagr was Canadien and didn't act like a prima dona he would be top 5 maybe number 3. The guy is so underrated and talked about because of his attitude.

He also lost 2 seasons to lockouts.

Jagr credits his stint in Europe for rejuvenating his career.

As for the top 3 argument, that’s a big no. Lemieux is generally considered to be the 3rd or 4th best out of Gretzky, Howe, Orr, and himself. No one considers Jagr better than Lemieux so he never had any semblance of an argument for top 3.

 

[daver]

Half the season played. McDavid 60P in 41GP. 1.46 PPG. 40 games remaining for McD. Keeping this pace will land him at 118p.

To reach 150p. He needs to have 90 in 40 games. That's a 2.25 ppg pace. This is pretty much out of the question at this point.
To reach 140p. He needs to have 80 in 40 games. 2.0 ppg pace. I don't think this is possible either.
To reach 129p (and beat Kucherovs best season). He needs to have 69p in 40g. 1.725 ppg pace. Not impossible, but very hard. For every one point game he has the rest of the season he needs to have have 2.5 point game to make up for it.

I am going to go out on a limb and say this is impossible.

 

[Darren McCord]

Jagr credits his stint in Europe for rejuvenating his career.

As for the top 3 argument, that’s a big no. Lemieux is generally considered to be the 3rd or 4th best out of Gretzky, Howe, Orr, and himself. No one considers Jagr better than Lemieux so he never had any semblance of an argument for top 3.

Meh I think Lemieux is number 2. But Jagr would have insane numbers. I dont buy that he wouldn't have kept playing. He also lost a lot of time to lockouts.

 

[McShogun99]

Half the season played. McDavid 60P in 41GP. 1.46 PPG. 40 games remaining for McD. Keeping this pace will land him at 118p.

To reach 150p. He needs to have 90 in 40 games. That's a 2.25 ppg pace. This is pretty much out of the question at this point.
To reach 140p. He needs to have 80 in 40 games. 2.0 ppg pace. I don't think this is possible either.
To reach 129p (and beat Kucherovs best season). He needs to have 69p in 40g. 1.725 ppg pace. Not impossible, but very hard. For every one point game he has the rest of the season he needs to have have 2.5 point game to make up for it.

I think he'll finish with 130-135. He always goes on a tear near the end of the season.

 

[bobbyking]

Maybe Messier, maybe Clarke, maybe Trottier then you have McDavid who is likely to pass him and other players(including his own team mate) who peaked just as high but got lesser careers of course also someone like Lindros who in my opinion was simply better at his peak(short as it was). Richard got no argument over anybody mentioned(infact he is the most overrated player of all time except maybe Doug Harvey). Ovechkin might be 4th winger of all time but he is also arguably the greatest goalscorer of all time and that counts for quite a lot in my book.

I am not so sure Crosby is in reality any better than Sakic(or Yzerman for that matter) was, maybe more accoladed but in terms of on ice-impact id take peak offensive Yzerman over any offensive version of Crosby and id take "playoff leader Sakic" over any "playoff leader Crosby" version.

Ovechkin is not really a clear cut top 10 player and still above Crosby so that's my take on it. And I am not even bringing goalies into this except Hasek(who is goat goalie for me) but a case could be made that Roy, Plante, Sawchuk, Brodeur should all be ranked higher than Crosby in my mind, but ill admit that ranking goalies compared to skaters is a quite futile prospect.

Clarke trottier and messier .... you lost all credibility

 

[VainGretzky]

I think he'll finish with 130-135. He always goes on a tear near the end of the season.

Yup when the Dmen around the league slow from wear and tear McDavid starts exploiting them

 

[Video Nasty]

Anyone being reasonable going into this season pegged McDavid for 130. He’s been a 120+ point capable scorer for over 4 consecutive years now.

2017-2018
62 points in 41 second half games (41 team games)

2018-2019
61 points in 40 first half games (41 team games)
57 points in 38 second half hames (41 team games)

2019-2020
65 points in 41 first half games (41 team games)
32 points in 23 second half games (41 team games)

2020-2021
48 points in 28 first half games (28 team games)
57 points in 28 second half games (28 team games)

2021-2022
59 points in 40 first half games (41 team games)

Even if you downgrade his 2020-2021 season and pretend he only scored a 1.5 ppg clip for 84 points in 56 games, we’re talking about 430 points in 279 games, 1.54 ppg for over 4 years straight (he played 92% of the possible games).

A 1.54 ppg scoring rate and I purposefully took away 21 points from his production last season because there’s so many whiners here.

126 points over a full 82 games. After scoring 105 in 56 the previous year under unique conditions, being the first to crack 130 points was reasonable to expect for this season.

Considering he has been very pedestrian by his standards lately, 18 points in his past 19 games, and his history, I still expect him to pop off for 70 points in his final 40 team games (if he plays them all) to hit 130 points in 81 games played.

 

[Joshuar56]

Wonder how many he'll have in the playoffs...

 

[authentic]

C'mon man. You are really going out of your way to bring Crosby down.

Forsberg was a great player but he is not better than Crosby. Forsberg scored over 100 points twice in his whole career. Crosby did it six times. Forsberg never scored more than 30 goals in a season. Crosby scored over 3o goals nine (9) times! It's not really close.

The funny part is Forsberg never really made a point of it to be much of a goal scorer in the regular season like Crosby did for a few seasons there, but even still look at their playoff stats...

Crosby : 174 games - 69 goals - 122 - 191 points

Forsberg: 151 games - 64 goals - 107 - 171 points (bulk of this came in the lowest scoring playoff era of all time which actually had averages of less than 5 goals per game some seasons) + notably better defense and physical play.

Crosby ranks higher for career and was even more consistent than Forsberg from season to season (regular season atleast) but at their best and when it mattered most it's delusional to claim Crosby was easily better.

 

[DearDiary]

How did this become the Crosby VS Jagr and Forsberg thread?