Player Discussion Cole Caufield: The little man with the big future.

[SlafySZN]

Still can’t keep up in the defensive zone, loses most of his battles along the boards, and needs to find a way to get the puck through the neutral zone. He’s a pure sniper. If we’re going to win cups with him, he needs to be more than that. Love the player, hope he reaches his upside.

Not true, he’s way stronger than he was not even a year ago and wins his battles along the boards. And better defensively too.

 

[417]

They’re definitely better together.

People seem to be forgetting that CC is just 21. In two years he should be a lot better than he is now. And as it is he’s pacing for 45 goals…

Which of course, MUST be factored into any negotiation not to mention the increase in cap.

 

[The Great Weal]

Look around the NHL...there are countless played who has signed long term 8M+ deals having done LESS than Caufield has.

Please name me which ones.

He's got PLENTY of arguments.


Nevermind that any negotiation on a long term deal, is based on what he can do long term and less what he’s done up to now

There is not as much certainty as you'd want with him. He was good in the playoffs, dog shit at the start of last year, great at the end of last year, and great so far this season.

Which btw is only

- be one of the NHL's top goal scorers since MSL toon over.

This doesn't really mean much despite being a cool stat. Transferring production from a portion of a previous season to this current season is not legitimate. Reminds me of the days where Galchenyuk was seen as an elite player because of how he kept racking up points after his crazy goalscoring streak.

- 4th most goals in MONTREAL CANADIENS HISTORY over their first 100 games.

How can anyone seriously argue he has not arguments to make more than 8M? Have you been paying attention to the rest of the league lately?

Yes I have been and most of the other players have more things going for them.

Kaprizov is not the comparable...

And why is he not? Because he doesn't fit you're flawed narrative? Kaprizov is a winger that doesn't PK and many were questioning if he could be replicating his rookie year or if he was a flash in the pan. Minny had no choice because they have been starving for an offensive player since forever and took the risk.

Josh Norris

Got under 8 and didn't make more than Tkachuk despite having a similar PPG last year.

Jason Robertson

Robertson had 2 elite seasons right away and Dallas was still questioning if he's the real deal which is why he only got 4 years.

Tim Stutzle

Stutzle was largely playing with the likes of Brown, Formenton, and Gaudette so not sure how that is comparable.

Tage Thompson

Thompson had one elite season and got 7.1 million, you're making my argument for me lol

You'd trade Caufiekd if he wanted 8.25M for example?

Come on man lol

When did I say that? If he wants 8.25 for 8 years then I'd give it to him since 250k is negligible. But if he wants more than the highest paid guy you mentioned, you give him short term contracts until he proves himself more. If he's still a 40 goal/70 point player wanting more than 9 million I'd be looking at other alternatives depending on the makeup of the team and our cap situation.

 

[Draft]

Not true, he’s way stronger than he was not even a year ago and wins his battles along the boards. And better defensively too.

He doesn't win board battles, he's not a good defensive player. He's better than he was, this is true, but he's still poor in these areas. He's still in the category of "if he's not scoring, he's pretty useless" and he's a big reason why that line struggles defensively. It takes a couple years for most young players to develop this part of their game, he needs work to get there.

 

[417]

Please name me which ones.

Again? Man i've done this about a dozen times.

Brady Tkachuk (8.25)
Tim Stutzle (8.3M)
Josh Norris (7.95M)
Jack Hughes (8M)
Robert Thomas (8.125M)
Jordan Kyrou (8.125M)

There is not as much certainty as you'd want with him. He was good in the playoffs, dog shit at the start of last year, great at the end of last year, and great so far this season.

It's rare to get total certainty when you're negotiating the 2nd contract. That's the inherent risk.

But we do know through 102 NHL games he's got 41 goals and 71pts.

Both of which are MORE than Nick Suzuki had through HIS first 102 NHL games.

This doesn't even take into account the 40ish game purgatory that Caufield went through.

This doesn't really mean much despite being a cool stat. Transferring production from a portion of a previous season to this current season is not legitimate. Reminds me of the days where Galchenyuk was seen as an elite player because of how he kept racking up points after his crazy goalscoring streak.

It doesn't mean much that he's one of the NHL top goal scorers since last Februrary 9th?

I promise you, his goal scoring will be a factor when it's time to negotiate his extension.

Promise lol.

Yes I have been and most of the other players have more things going for them.

Irrelevant...Cole Caufield's production, so far through his first 102 NHL games is on par and in MANY cases, superior, to his peers who have already signed long term deals worth 8M+.

Subjective factors like what you or I think about what one has vs the other is irrelevant.

And why is he not? Because he doesn't fit you're flawed narrative? Kaprizov is a winger that doesn't PK and many were questioning if he could be replicating his rookie year or if he was a flash in the pan. Minny had no choice because they have been starving for an offensive player since forever and took the risk.

#1. He was 24 when he signed his deal, he had played 5 years in the KHL. Apples to apples my man, gotta compare apples to apples.

#2. I have no narrative, just cold hard facts.

Got under 8 and didn't make more than Tkachuk despite having a similar PPG last year.

He got 7.95M which is MORE than the magic "Nick Suzuki cap hit" which was the crux of my argument.

Robertson had 2 elite seasons right away and Dallas was still questioning if he's the real deal which is why he only got 4 years.

Cole Caufield's goal and point pace is almost identital to what Jason Robertson's goal and point pace total was at the same point of their careers.

As for the 4 year deal, that's what the Habs want to avoid.

If you believe In Caufield, you WANT him signed for 8 years...not 4yrs.

You think the Stars are going to be thrilled to have to negotiate a new contract for this guy in 3 years the way he's going?? He's gonna be making more money than Connor McDavid in 2026!

Stutzle was largely playing with the likes of Brown, Formenton, and Gaudette so not sure how that is comparable.

Irrelevant...look at the numbers.

You're focused on emotions and feelings about players which have no place in a negotiation.

Look at Stutzle's numbers when he signed his extension

Then compare them to Caufield's current production.

Thompson had one elite season and got 7.1 million, you're making my argument for me lol

Sigh...Thompson signed for 7 years first of all.

Secondly, his cap hit % for 2023-24 season (which is when his contract kicks in), will be worth 14.05% of the Buffalo Sabres 83.5M salary cap.

I'll let you figure out the math of what 14.05% (on an 8 YEAR DEAL) for Cole Caufield,

Hint: It's more than 7.1M/year.

Hint 2: I didn't make your argument for you, it was completely in my favor.

When did I say that? If he wants 8.25 for 8 years then I'd give it to him since 250k is negligible. But if he wants more than the highest paid guy you mentioned, you give him short term contracts until he proves himself more. If he's still a 40 goal/70 point player wanting more than 9 million I'd be looking at other alternatives depending on the makeup of the team and our cap situation.

But statistically, he's scored more goals and recorded more assists so far through the same amount of games (102) than the guy you're insisting he should make less then.

It would be completely asinine to lose this player over some self-imposed salary cap for 500-750K per year.

 

[417]

He doesn't win board battles, he's not a good defensive player. He's better than he was, this is true, but he's still poor in these areas. He's still in the category of "if he's not scoring, he's pretty useless" and he's a big reason why that line struggles defensively. It takes a couple years for most young players to develop this part of their game, he needs work to get there.

He wasn't drafted to win board battles or be a good defensive player.

Although he's more than adequate in both areas mind you.

But this is akin to criticizing Nick Suzuki for not piling up more hits or knocking Kaiden Guhle for not scoring more goals.

 

[The Great Weal]

Again? Man i've done this about a dozen times.

Brady Tkachuk (8.25)
Tim Stutzle (8.3M)
Josh Norris (7.95M)
Jack Hughes (8M)
Robert Thomas (8.125M)
Jordan Kyrou (8.125M)

Well I've already addressed Stutzle and Norris. Tkachuk has led his team in scoring for 2 of the 3 years before his contract. Jack Hughes...come on man that's a 1st OA player who went over PPG in the season before the contract. Robert Thomas is a key PKer for the Blues. Don't know how he's done less than Caufield, he was over PPG last year.

It's rare to get total certainty when you're negotiating the 2nd contract. That's the inherent risk.

But we do know through 102 NHL games he's got 41 goals and 71pts.

Both of which are MORE than Nick Suzuki had through HIS first 102 NHL games.

Again, Suzuki has looked like a threat from literally any position and any line and PKs. Suzuki was and is the more valuable player. Caufield was awful when he wasn't with Suzuki (yes Ducharme had a role in it but he has some responsibility for his play too).

It doesn't mean much that he's one of the NHL top goal scorers since last Februrary 9th?

I promise you, his goal scoring will be a factor when it's time to negotiate his extension.

Promise lol.

Why are you being deliberately obtuse... Again, you completely ignored my Galchenyuk argument. Guy was pretty much PPG from the 2nd half of one season and the first bit of the next season. It didn't mean shit. You look at production throughout the course of a season, not bits and parts of multiple seasons.

I literally never said his goal scoring won't be a factor but you can put words in my mouth if you'd like.

Subjective factors like what you or I think about what one has vs the other is irrelevant.

#1. He was 24 when he signed his deal, he had played 5 years in the KHL. Apples to apples my man, gotta compare apples to apples.

#2. I have no narrative, just cold hard facts.

He had ZERO NHL games. It's funny how you bring up career points and games for CC before his extension yet completely ignore it for Kaprizov. They are both wingers that don't PK and didn't play many games to show what they are made of. Those are the real cold hard facts.

Irrelevant...look at the numbers.

You're focused on emotions and feelings about players which have no place in a negotiation.

Look at Stutzle's numbers when he signed his extension

Then compare them to Caufield's current production.

How is it not relevant? Stutzle put up 60 points playing with 3rd liners and CC is on pace for 75 playing with an elite player and Dach who's better than all of Stutzle's linemates combined.

Sigh...Thompson signed for 7 years first of all.

I didn't say otherwise...

I didn't make your argument for you, it was completely in my favor.

You really didn't. Thompson's lackluster production before last year is what made his cap hit 7.1 million.

It would be completely asinine to lose this player over some self-imposed salary cap for 500-750K per year.

Yup and I never said otherwise. I'm not going to give CC over 8 million LONGTERM unless he shows he can do more than what he's currently doing. Depending on how much more he wants, I give him short term contracts if it's an unreasonable ask (aka Kaprizov territory).

 

[Draft]

He wasn't drafted to win board battles or be a good defensive player.

Although he's more than adequate in both areas mind you.

But this is akin to criticizing Nick Suzuki for not piling up more hits or knocking Kaiden Guhle for not scoring more goals.

Sure, except it's an essential part of his play as a winger and accounts for 50%+ of the game. He's more than capable of developing this part of his play. The goals cover up a lot of deficiencies - especially away from the puck. If/when his scoring slows down, we still need him to contribute in a positive way. It's the same with Suzuki, we need them to be more than offence-only players if we want this team to compete at the top of the league.

 

[417]

Well I've already addressed Stutzle and Norris. Tkachuk has led his team in scoring for 2 of the 3 years before his contract. Jack Hughes...come on man that's a 1st OA player who went over PPG in the season before the contract. Robert Thomas is a key PKer for the Blues. Don't know how he's done less than Caufield, he was over PPG last year.

- Yes you did address Stutzle/Norris/Tkachuk but just not the point I was making. They are as much comparables for Caufield as Suzuki can be, and all 3 make MORE than Suzuki.

- When Jack Hughes signed his contract extension he had just finished his 2nd NHL season and his 3rd NHL season, the one in which he BECAME a PPG player, it was November 30th, 2021. His point totals up to that point were

117 games

18 goals 34 assists for 52pts

So yeah......he was NOT at over a PPG the season before that contract, in fact, he was well below.

Again, Suzuki has looked like a threat from literally any position and any line and PKs. Suzuki was and is the more valuable player. Caufield was awful when he wasn't with Suzuki (yes Ducharme had a role in it but he has some responsibility for his play too).

None of this really matters to Caufield's agent, he's going to present cold hard numbers of both players (and others) at similar points in their careers.

I'm not fabricating this, but Caufield is AHEAD of Suzuki in terms of goals/points than Suzuki was at the same stage.

Also, Suzuki struggled under Ducharme and away from Caufield.

BOTH Caufield AND Suzuki have benefitted from playing with each other.

Why are you being deliberately obtuse... Again, you completely ignored my Galchenyuk argument. Guy was pretty much PPG from the 2nd half of one season and the first bit of the next season. It didn't mean shit. You look at production throughout the course of a season, not bits and parts of multiple seasons.

Last thing i'm being obtuse, offering valid rebuttals is not being obtuse. It's part of a healthy debate.

Galchenyuk argument is irrelevant because the sample was tiny, we're talking 30 games.

We're talking about over 100 games and counting for Caufield.

I literally never said his goal scoring won't be a factor but you can put words in my mouth if you'd like.

In response to me bringing up that he's one of the NHL's top 3 or 5 goal scorers since February 9th, 2022 you responded that "it doesn't really matter".

I didn't put words in your mouth, I responded to what you wrote.

He had ZERO NHL games. It's funny how you bring up career points and games for CC before his extension yet completely ignore it for Kaprizov. They are both wingers that don't PK and didn't play many games to show what they are made of. Those are the real cold hard facts.

Apples to apples...not apples to oranges.

How is it not relevant? Stutzle put up 60 points playing with 3rd liners and CC is on pace for 75 playing with an elite player and Dach who's better than all of Stutzle's linemates combined.

Man, you gotta be prepared if you're going to debate with me.

ONLY Brady Tkachuk had more ice time than Tim Stuzle last year.

He averaged 18:25 per game last year.

In what world was this 3rd line icetime? lol

Heck Caufield isn't even averaging 18:25 per game THIS YEAR lol.

I didn't say otherwise...

No but you clearly didn't factor that into your response.

You really didn't. Thompson's lackluster production before last year is what made his cap hit 7.1 million.

His cap hit would have been right around 8M if he had signed for 8 years. Not even sure why you're debating this lol

If the Habs sign Caufield for 7 years, then I think his caphit will also be similar.

But we're discussing a deal similar to Nick Suzuki...so 8 years.

Yup and I never said otherwise. I'm not going to give CC over 8 million LONGTERM unless he shows he can do more than what he's currently doing. Depending on how much more he wants, I give him short term contracts if it's an unreasonable ask (aka Kaprizov territory).

That's OK.

I just want to remind you that he's producing at a higher clip than Nick Suzuki was at the same point in his career. Additionally, 2nd contracts when they're negotiated over the long term are less about what the player has done and more about what you think the player can do moving forward.

So showing more than what he's done so far (even though he's on a team HOF pace mind you lol) is largely irrelevant.

That's really all that matters.

Anyone who thinks he doesn't have an argument to ask for more, is fooling themselves.

 

[417]

Sure, except it's an essential part of his play as a winger and accounts for 50%+ of the game. He's more than capable of developing this part of his play. The goals cover up a lot of deficiencies - especially away from the puck. If/when his scoring slows down, we still need him to contribute in a positive way. It's the same with Suzuki, we need them to be more than offence-only players if we want this team to compete at the top of the league.

He was drafted as a 5'7 170lb goal scoring phenom.

Playing along the boards was never and is never going to be his strength.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

As I’ve already said, Suzuki was dominating the game regardless of who he was playing with. He was still the best forward on the team when playing wing on a line with Thompson and Cousins.

This simply isn’t true.

His career high was 61 points and that was last year. And he had 28 points in 49 games last year before DD got fired. He was pacing for a 47 point season until CC was added to his line. Afterwards he took off and finished with 61. The previous year he paced for 60.

What you’ve said is demonstrably false.

 

[Tetragrammaton]

He was drafted as a 5'7 170lb goal scoring phenom.

Playing along the boards was never and is never going to be his strength.

He's actually not bad on the boards, that hit on Myers was epic. He wins battles he's pretty elusive.

 

[417]

He's actually not bad on the boards, that hit on Myers was epic. He wins battles he's pretty elusive.

Oh agreed and he's smart enough not to engage in battles he can't win.

But holding this aspect of the game against him is odd imo.

 

[SlafySZN]

He doesn't win board battles, he's not a good defensive player. He's better than he was, this is true, but he's still poor in these areas. He's still in the category of "if he's not scoring, he's pretty useless" and he's a big reason why that line struggles defensively. It takes a couple years for most young players to develop this part of their game, he needs work to get there.

Don’t agree, at all.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

A superstar winger would be a guy like Kaprizov, CC is more comparable to Debrincat and you take Suzuki over Debrincat every time.

I’m not saying CC is a superstar now. I’m saying he will be. He’s 21 and pacing for 45 goals. He’s broken goal scoring records throughout the minors… he’s the real deal.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Question.

What do you do if he wants more? Because he has more than enough arguments to ask for it.

You let him walk or trade him because of some arbitrary internal cap structure that isn't linked to league revenues but linked to some internal “rule” of hierarchy?

Hope to God Habs Management isn't as dogmatic.

Pay him.

Without a doubt.

 

[Tetragrammaton]

Oh agreed and he's smart enough not to engage in battles he can't win.

But holding this aspect of the game against him is odd imo.

absolutely odd agreed.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He doesn't win board battles, he's not a good defensive player. He's better than he was, this is true, but he's still poor in these areas. He's still in the category of "if he's not scoring, he's pretty useless" and he's a big reason why that line struggles defensively. It takes a couple years for most young players to develop this part of their game, he needs work to get there.

Even if he doesn’t who cares? Mike Bossy, Brett Hull… goalscoring is such a rare talent. They were one dimensional and nobody cared. Gretzky was one dimensional too. Trottier was a far more complete player but nobody would take him over Gretz.

I don’t agree with the criticism that he’s useless defensively but even if he was, he’s still a superstar talent.

 

[The Great Weal]

This simply isn’t true.

His career high was 61 points. He had 28 points in 49 games last year before DD got fired. He was pacing for a 47 point season until CC was added to his line.

What you’ve said is demonstrably false.

He was literally on pace for 60 points the year before and essentially had the same point totals as CC in both their rookie seasons. Suzuki proved way more than CC even without looking at production.

Like many times, your take is laughably wrong. For the 3rd time im saying this, the guy was dominant playing 4th line RW with Thompson and Cousins, dominant with Drouin and Armia against the Flyers in the playoffs, and essentially every time. I mean the guy got Andrew Shaw a career year to somehow get us a 2nd for him.

All it takes is to actually watch them play and especially recalling how damn good Suzuki was. Suzuki had athleticism issues and didn’t use his elite shot often. So far it seems like he’s fixed that. The dominant cerebral player was always there even if the production wasn’t at times.

 

[JoelWarlord]

I care more about the term than the number. If it costs 8M or higher to make the term 8 years then so be it. The cap is rising, inflation is hitting global economies, and there's a huge windfall coming with the impact of the new American TV contracts that will hit as soon as the Covid HRR debt is paid off (which could be as soon as the end of this year).

The days of 6-7 year extensions at 6M for young stars are over. I don't really see the point of getting worried about a million bucks and giving him a short term deal to "earn" more money over the next few years where we won't be competing anyway. Giving him a 3-4 year deal is just going to make the next contract when we're in a competitive window cost 11+ with how quickly the cap is projected to rise in the next few years.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He was literally on pace for 60 points the year before and essentially had the same point totals as CC in both their rookie seasons. Suzuki proved way more than CC even without looking at production.

Like many times, your take is laughably wrong. For the 3rd time im saying this, the guy was dominant playing 4th line RW with Thompson and Cousins, dominant with Drouin and Armia against the Flyers in the playoffs, and essentially every time. I mean the guy got Andrew Shaw a career year to somehow get us a 2nd for him.

I know you’ve said he was dominant. You’ve said it repeatedly.

But there’s nothing to support what you’ve said. 60 points isn’t dominant. You are clearly wrong here. As usual though you will dig in your heels.

I’m not wasting my time with you arguing if water is wet. It is.

 

[417]

I care more about the term than the number. If it costs 8M or higher to make the term 8 years then so be it. The cap is rising, inflation is hitting global economies, and there's a huge windfall coming with the impact of the new American TV contracts that will hit as soon as the Covid HRR debt is paid off (which could be as soon as the end of this year).

The days of 6-7 year extensions at 6M for young stars are over. I don't really see the point of getting worried about a million bucks and giving him a short term deal to "earn" more money over the next few years where we won't be competing anyway. Giving him a 3-4 year deal is just going to make the next contract when we're in a competitive window cost 11+ with how quickly the cap is projected to rise in the next few years.

People just always get nervous about their teams paying their players.

Go in the Suzuki thread, see how many folks were ready to jump off the ledge after he signed his extension. It was the same “prove it first” talk you're seeing here.

But today that contract is a more than market value.

It's going to be the same with Caufield.

 

[The Great Weal]

I know you keep saying he was dominant. You’ve said it repeatedly.

But there’s nothing to support what you’ve said. 60 points isn’t dominant.

I forgot I was talking to hockeyDB statwatching expert. How can you be a Habs fan and not see how dominant Suzuki has been lmao.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I care more about the term than the number. If it costs 8M or higher to make the term 8 years then so be it. The cap is rising, inflation is hitting global economies, and there's a huge windfall coming with the impact of the new American TV contracts that will hit as soon as the Covid HRR debt is paid off (which could be as soon as the end of this year).

The days of 6-7 year extensions at 6M for young stars are over. I don't really see the point of getting worried about a million bucks and giving him a short term deal to "earn" more money over the next few years where we won't be competing anyway. Giving him a 3-4 year deal is just going to make the next contract when we're in a competitive window cost 11+ with how quickly the cap is projected to rise in the next few years.

I’m cautiously optimistic that he takes the same deal Suzuki did. They’re buddies so I hope that’s the way it goes.

But if he wants more, you have to sign the guy.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I forgot I was talking to hockeyDB statwatching expert. How can you be a Habs fan and not see how dominant Suzuki has been lmao.

Yeah crazy how some people actually back up what they’re saying. What a concept…