Confirmed Trade: [COL/ARI] Darcy Kuemper ($1M ret.) for Connor Timmins, '22 1st, and '24 cond. 3rd

[periferal]

I agree the assets were poorly used and Sakic panicked/overpaid. But if you aren't arguing against Kuemper, then why make statements such as "Kuemper is not bringing this Avs team to the promised land...So why would he be a target to resign for anything other than a backup (and he'd be an expensive one at that given their cap situation)"

That's fair. I have a few points:

1. Not saying Grubauer was the answer.
2. The lack of planning and asset usage by Sakic was terrible.
3. If you have to trade that kind of price for a goalie then I believe it should be someone better than Kuemper.

 

[periferal]

All better now

So sensitive.

 

[periferal]

Exactly.

Sackic messed up big time here. Kuemper is good, no doubt.

But now they basically have no assets to improve the team during the year. (Those were the primary pieces they would need to land a big fish at the TDL, now that's basically toast).

So they are going with basically the current lineup for better or worse, AFTER having lost important depth pieces all over the lineup.

Not a good off-season at all. Edmonton is defintely the biggest loser so far, but Col and a couple of other teams are not far behind.

Amen to this post. Amen.

 

[DuklaNation]

Wow, Sakic took an L on this whole goalie situation. Overpayment for an average goalie. I think he should have paid the price for a guy who's more proven as a difference maker.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Exactly.

Sackic messed up big time here. Kuemper is good, no doubt.

But now they basically have no assets to improve the team during the year. (Those were the primary pieces they would need to land a big fish at the TDL, now that's basically toast).

So they are going with basically the current lineup for better or worse, AFTER having lost important depth pieces all over the lineup.

Not a good off-season at all. Edmonton is defintely the biggest loser so far, but Col and a couple of other teams are not far behind.

Who are the important depth pieces they’ve lost? The only one that is of much significance is Saad.

I get that opposing fans don’t know the ins and outs of the Avs roster, but they’re adding Byram, Newhook, Maltsev, Johnson, and Kuemper to the lineup this season. They also have some cap left over for a couple depth adds.

The trade deadline point is fair. They’d probably have to dip further into their prospect pool to make any additions at that time.

 

[AslanRH]

So sensitive.

Not at all, I wanted him to spend assets for a guy like Gibson (not sure that is my fandom of Gibson talking or a smart move)
All these critics just seem to be saying how poorly the trade value was without showing any evidence of a better option.

I listed earlier all the Goalies that were traded this offseason. The trade value comparison doesn't hold up.
Kuemper and Ned were the closest 2, and there has been no indication that I have seen that the Canes did anything but send him to a team that wouldn't compete with them, especially in a cup run.

 

[PeterForsberg]

As an Avs fan, this trade isn't the best but I really think Sakic is high on Kuemper after we've played them so many times the last few years.

Additionally, Grub wanted a 5+ year deal which could've really costed us when signing our big names further down the road.

 

[North Cole]

As an Avs fan, this trade isn't the best but I really think Sakic is high on Kuemper after we've played them so many times the last few years.

Additionally, Grub wanted a 5+ year deal which could've really costed us when signing our big names further down the road.

I don't know, the Grub term doesn't really seem that big a deal here. You still need to sign DK, unless you paid all of that to lose the guy to UFA next year? You need a starting goalie long term regardless, so that can't really be the reason you didn't sign the big names down the road.

 

[PeterForsberg]

I don't know, the Grub term doesn't really seem that big a deal here. You still need to sign DK, unless you paid all of that to lose the guy to UFA next year? You need a starting goalie long term regardless, so that can't really be the reason you didn't sign the big names down the road.

I think Sakic thought he could get away with not spending a lot on goal.
He was wrong :/

 

[North Cole]

I think Sakic thought he could get away with not spending a lot on goal.
He was wrong :/

We seem to be doing the same thing. Really need a Koskinen replacement

 

[periferal]

Not at all, I wanted him to spend assets for a guy like Gibson (not sure that is my fandom of Gibson talking or a smart move)
All these critics just seem to be saying how poorly the trade value was without showing any evidence of a better option.

I listed earlier all the Goalies that were traded this offseason. The trade value comparison doesn't hold up.
Kuemper and Ned were the closest 2, and there has been no indication that I have seen that the Canes did anything but send him to a team that wouldn't compete with them, especially in a cup run.

I mean if you're going to get anally technical about it - There's no way to prove anything in terms of NHL rumors.

That said if you're really sitting there telling us that the Canes didn't want to give Nedeljkovic a measly 3M/year, but....They wouldn't have traded him out of conference to the Avs on the ridiculously low off chance that they'd meet in the finals, then you sir are not operating in reality.

Common sense dictates Sakic could've beaten out a lot of the other goalie moves out there...If he had planned for this properly.

The questions for Sakic are...

• Why are you still not aware of the contract ask for your starting goaltender on the day free agency opens when you had exclusive negotiating rights with him for the past year?
• And why wasn't an internal deadline not put in place weeks ago where if a deal wasn't reached Sakic would fully explore other goalie options?

Avs fans can sit here and twist reality as much as they want, but they're doing so because they know this was a total f*** up by Sakic and it hurts when it happens to the team you root for...And it's f*** up that cost he Avs serious assets that could've improved the team in other areas, and one that ultimately might not bring them any closer to a Cup.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Exactly.

Sackic messed up big time here. Kuemper is good, no doubt.

But now they basically have no assets to improve the team during the year. (Those were the primary pieces they would need to land a big fish at the TDL, now that's basically toast).

So they are going with basically the current lineup for better or worse, AFTER having lost important depth pieces all over the lineup.

Not a good off-season at all. Edmonton is defintely the biggest loser so far, but Col and a couple of other teams are not far behind.

To your point about lack of assets: nah, Timmins wasn't our only B-prospect, though he certainly was a high end B prospect and a painfully valuable piece to move on top of a 1st. We still have assets like Barron, Kaut, Bowers, Olausson, Ranta, Helleson, etc. Not to mention absolute blue chippers in Byram/Newhook, though I'd not consider trading them for rentals regardless.

As for not having a 1st specifically, it is what it is - we're hardly the first team to trade their 1st away to chase a cup. By the numbers, it rarely works out. But then you think about how many teams actually spend 1sts in any given year (it's typically at minimum 1 to 2) and that only 1 team can win the cup each year, and the point about it rarely working seems just a little bit pointless.

This offseason was not a 100% disaster by any terms. Signing Makar long term to a sub-$10M AAV, getting Landeskog to return at a fair (discount even, for this year and maybe 1 or 2 more) $7M AAV. These were wins we needed. I don't think Grubauer was going to come before either of those other two in terms of raw dollars and the Avs have never really seemed to be big fans of paying goalies a lot, so forcing the cap squeeze by paying him $5.9M aav was just never going to happen, I think we can all agree there. I think Sakic was always aware of the possibility of Grubauer being impossible to re-sign, but there's no doubt he was pretty heavy handed in terms of compensation relinquished for Kuemper (and the modest retention that we got, not even 50%).

The fact remains, for the Avs, Kuemper on a cap hit that is a full $2.4M less than what Grubauer signed for, and arguably more talented than Grubauer as well? There's a lot of value there for the Avs who also don't have to commit long term to Kuemper if he fizzles and can have another swing at a new Piñata next FA period or if a trade presents itself.

 

[rt]

Oof a conditional 3rd as well?

If Arizona gets that 3rd it will be the best thing to happen to the Avalanche in 20 years.

 

[untouchable21]

I love what Arizona has been doing. They have a huge treasure chest of picks now.

Yeah, except all they seem to do is develop and then trade away once players establish themselves. Never seems to be any end game with that organization.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I don't know, the Grub term doesn't really seem that big a deal here. You still need to sign DK, unless you paid all of that to lose the guy to UFA next year? You need a starting goalie long term regardless, so that can't really be the reason you didn't sign the big names down the road.

It probably depends on your evaluation of Grubauer.

There are some who would’ve done it, others believe his numbers are inflated by the Avs defence/system.

Personally I’m terrified of signing pretty much any goaltender (sans guys like Vasi) beyond 3/4 years. Sometimes they play well and other times they suddenly become shit. It’s a weird position.

Obviously you can’t pay the price Colorado just did every year, but I think it’s wise to be cautious on giving goaltenders big money on long term deals.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Why are you still not aware of the contract ask for your starting goaltender on the day free agency opens when you had exclusive negotiating rights with him for the past year?

Hm. I'm thinking he likely did know this # - roughly - and that our cap structure just doesn't allow us to come close to a $5.9M AAV offer that he ultimately got. I think even the $5M flat that was rumored to have been on the table could have presented issues in the future with MacKinnon's contract timeline. Grubauer is very good, but his resume isn't exactly lengthy. Goalie contracts over 4.5ish with term scare me for goalies who haven't had much season-to-season success and have shown they are a known commodity (even then..)

 

[Super Hans]

The team is good enough to make the playoffs with suspect goaltending. After missing out on Grubauer and the rest of the good goalie crop, he could have signed Dubnyk and worked the phones for the next 6 months up to the deadline when teams are selling (i.e. Fleury if Chicago falls on its face).

He needed to do something this season, but not panic on day 1.

 

[periferal]

Hm. I'm thinking he likely did know this # - roughly - and that our cap structure just doesn't allow us to come close to a $5.9M AAV offer that he ultimately got. I think even the $5M flat that was rumored to have been on the table could have presented issues in the future with MacKinnon's contract timeline. Grubauer is very good, but his resume isn't exactly lengthy. Goalie contracts over 4.5ish with term scare me for goalies who haven't had much season-to-season success and have shown they are a known commodity (even then..)

If Sakic knew Grubauer's ask well in advance and still let it come to UFA day without another goalie plan in place then that is literally GM malpractice.

 

[KingKhron]

I literally have no idea how GMs value goalies or do asset management. Fleury is free, let Grubauer walk, trade a 1st for Kuemper, Jones gets a 2M deal. What is this madness

Don’t forget Nedelkjovic for the 92nd overall. Considering us Oil traded back two spots(losing Wallstedt) to gain the 90th and didn’t use it like that, I’m not feeling goalie positive.

 

[rt]

Yeah, except all they seem to do is develop and then trade away once players establish themselves. Never seems to be any end game with that organization.

There's the tricky part. Who's "they"? The 2 year old ownership group? The 1 year old GM? The completely cleared out front-office, business operations, scouting staff, and coaching staff? Christian Fischer is the longest tenured player on the team. Every fiber of the organization has been replaced in the last three years.

I've been watching every game since 1996 and I've never seen this club behave in this manner. It's all been about cost management previously. Even when they were taking on Pronger, Datsyuk, and Hossa there was no salary attached - only cap. This is different. They're taking on real dollars for assets. When John Chayka took over, he gave it ONE season before he started bleeding draft capital and young players (7th overall for Stepan and Murphy for Hjalmarsson), and he never let up (Domi, Strome, Duclair, etc.), culminating with the Taylor Hall debacle and the combine cheating fiasco. Even Maloney made zero rebuild trades in 2016 and did only the Yandle and Vermette deals in 2015. But followed that up by doing Korpikoski and Boedker for older pieces and getting no draft capital at all that year.

 

[BudBundy]

Ugly trade for Colorado with a huge risk attached. Kuemper could be one of the best or one of the worst goalies this year and nobody would be surprised either way.

 

[Jerkbait]

Nah; after this series of moves, Vegas are clearly the better team now in the West.

Avs kept the core pieces, but lost a lot of depth everywhere. They should be a considerably easier opponent to play against. Having minor leaguers replacing Saad, Donskoi, Graves, and having lost their long term 2RD is really going to hurt in the coming year.

Not even close . The 3 biggest areas for key success in the playoffs is goaltending, defense and center depth. Colorado has Vegas beat on all 3 fronts . Losing flower will hurt Vegas and unless they address the center position Colorado has them beat. The other pieces are plug and play and the avs have the critical areas locked down.

 

[Drij]

meh Timmins is one hit away from being a vegetable..

 

[Got One Cup]

That's the thing - and I agree with this 100%. When you're ready to make the final push, who gives a f*** about what you pay in picks and prospects. Picks and prospects don't get their names engraved on Lord Stanley.

I still think it was a *curious* decision, and I don't necessarily love their offseason, but I don't think this changes their status as a legit Cup contender one bit.

I agree they needed a legit #1 and not too many teams trading those. He did what he had to do. I just like seeing him finally lose a trade, guy is IMO one of the best GMs in the league.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

meh Timmins is one hit away from being a vegetable..

I was saying that for over a year and Avs fans vilified me. Why the change of heart??