Classic Wrestling Discussion: Part III & Wrestler Poll

[Voight]

I never cared for him. He barely even had a gimmick or distinguishable characteristics other than "guy who is always champion or inevitably on the path to be champion". Most of his heel stuff was just based around the inevitability of his push, on both the surface and meta level given his connection with the McMahons by 2000. In the end I found him boring and there is little worse than for a wrestler to be boring. B level talent, A+ level push.

A+ delivery here. Couldn't of said it better myself. There was a comment once an old Rock promo video I watched that said "Who The Hell do you think you are?" was the most overused line in the Attitude Era (consistently said by HHH, Stephanie etc)

Speaking of The Rock. Got into a Youtube wormhole of his old promos not too long ago, man those days were golden. Especially the stuff with Big Show

 

[koyvoo]

“Somebody got a haircut”

 

[These Are The Days]

I've been thinking this for a very long time (at least 6 months relative to year 2000 WWF programming) but Val Venis is a really sad story of creative mismanagement. Nothing about his gimmick loans itself to bring someone who goes berserk or being a natural heel. He's a pornstar with a sultry voice. He could have been the top of the midcard as a career babyface winning the IC, Euro or tag titles as frequently as needed. The dude was over the moon and they turned him heel vs Mick Foley and it went off like a dud.

I know a gimmick can seldom last forever but for example, you get this guy relentlessly trying to get with Stephanie and calling her easy it would've worked as well as Jericho insulting her nightly. It didn't HAVE TO go down like this and sadly it did

 

[These Are The Days]

I'm a few weeks away (in WWF 2000 time) from Fully Loaded and a few thoughts as I'm part way through the July 3rd episode and haven't finished it yet.

1. Foley as commish is cute I guess
2. Foley as commish is even more unsustainable than the faction controlling everything for 8+ months. I give the dude 8 weeks before a "return to order"
3. I'm remembering now a flashback to childhood where at some point Stephanie lied to HHH about being pregnant -I think to keep him from leaving her? We'll see how my recollection holds up
4. The "genetic jackhammer" ain't staying gone long
5. Jericho keeps ruining HHH's matches and Mick won't do anything. Why do I feel like the next logical step is domestic violence? i.e a scene where HHH straight up breaks into Mick's house and takes one of his kids hostage or threatens to hit his wife with a sledge hammer in order to get a title shot? Considering how much smut the AE peddles this would not be surprising.
6. There's something about people being put through tables that gets such a visceral reaction from the crowd. WWE programming would probably resurrect itself overnight if folks knew they could expect some tables. These days even the announce table doesn't sell anymore.

 

[These Are The Days]

I swear only JBL's cabinet had as much stagnant and predictable booking as DX 2000. And in terms of cheap heat maybe only Spirit Squad was worse. It might as well be the cheerleaders coming out to Run DMC and with HHH dressed in green and black. It's so bad it has become self aware of how bad it is with nonstop whining about not being able to interfere in matches with Foley in charge now. It's amazing this how trash lives on the same show as the brilliance of the heel work of Benoit, Angle, T&A, Jericho's old work and now Tazz attacking at random.

At least WWF had the decency of Bret, Owen, Anvil and Brian Pillman and Nation of Domination NOT being on my screen half the damn show and that's why I loved them too -and that's despite them all doing the same thing as this.




Edit: I take that back. Marc Mero was really, really bad by the end. Copy/Paste the low blow and win for months on end. Jarrett with the guitar wasn't a whole lot better but I could sit through it because I genuinely felt bad he was in Mid Card hell and any ounce of success he had made me happy.

 

[These Are The Days]

Angle literally told Taker to ride a scooter and accept it as a gift as opposed to his motorcycle. Taker naturally throws it off the stage. Bro. I can't even with this guy. Angle might become my new religion if he doesn't stop.

 

[JackSlater]

I've been thinking this for a very long time (at least 6 months relative to year 2000 WWF programming) but Val Venis is a really sad story of creative mismanagement. Nothing about his gimmick loans itself to bring someone who goes berserk or being a natural heel. He's a pornstar with a sultry voice. He could have been the top of the midcard as a career babyface winning the IC, Euro or tag titles as frequently as needed. The dude was over the moon and they turned him heel vs Mick Foley and it went off like a dud.

I know a gimmick can seldom last forever but for example, you get this guy relentlessly trying to get with Stephanie and calling her easy it would've worked as well as Jericho insulting her nightly. It didn't HAVE TO go down like this and sadly it did

I do think that there were various paths to Venis being a heel, and WWF did end up taking a logical route with him in the end anyway. I always liked Val Venis as a very good mid card guy.

 

[Voight]

At the time of his peak I was not an Austin fan. I was sick of him and found him badly overexposed, sort of like you're getting at. Much bigger Rock fan. I still have to respect his ability though, particularly the promos and general charisma.

I'll add that I don't think that the push made Austin by any stretch. He was getting massively over in 1996 and 1997 as a heel against Bret Hart (and others) before people really knew that McMahon was the boss and any monster trucks had shown up. I don't think that many people could have gotten over as Austin did even with his push. I do think that plenty of people could have gotten HHH's reactions, and more, with the push that he had.

Funny, I was never a Rock fan in the Attitude Era and was a massive SCSA homer. Now, 20 years later I still love SCSA but I have become a massive Rock stan.

 

[These Are The Days]

Bull Buchanan is now aligned with "Steven Richards" lmao okay Right To Censor at the moment is genuinely funny satire. Like Simpsons style and I genuinely appreciate it. Please don't f*** this up and turn them into DX and have them on the show 50% of the time. Like this a chance at clever heel work. Please don't hurt me by turning them into insufferable twits

 

[Megahab]

I do think that there were various paths to Venis being a heel, and WWF did end up taking a logical route with him in the end anyway. I always liked Val Venis as a very good mid card guy.

I don't know if it's me just being young and easy to entertain but I remember loving the Venis vs. Rikishi IC title feud. They had a great cage match that doesn't get talked about today.

 

[Voight]

 

[These Are The Days]

I don't know if it's me just being young and easy to entertain but I remember loving the Venis vs. Rikishi IC title feud. They had a great cage match that doesn't get talked about today.

On Fully Loaded 2000 right now and see a cage hanging ominously above the ring. Hoping it's Rikishi vs Val now. We'll see.


PS- Lita is over the moon. Holy crap. What a shame the women's title is wasted on Steph "just because she's Mrs. Game"

 

[Megahab]

On Fully Loaded 2000 right now and see a cage hanging ominously above the ring. Hoping it's Rikishi vs Val now. We'll see.

Yup that's the one.

 

[JackSlater]

Funny, I was never a Rock fan in the Attitude Era and was a massive SCSA homer. Now, 20 years later I still love SCSA but I have become a massive Rock stan.

Specifically 1999 Rock is one of my favourite wrestlers ever. This era:

Great stuff and I would definitely take that Rock over Austin around that time. Austin peaked early on in his run. 1996 and 1997. Rock became stale for a while and then Hollywood Rock came around, another of my all time favourites.

I don't know if it's me just being young and easy to entertain but I remember loving the Venis vs. Rikishi IC title feud. They had a great cage match that doesn't get talked about today.

I'm with you for that ridiculous stuff. Something that sounds like potential crap on paper but was solid, and honestly in story terms I would have enjoyed them embracing the potential those gimmicks had together. My main memory of the match is that it was a solid showcase for Rikishi's athleticism, and Venis was always a really good seller.

 

[Voight]

Specifically 1999 Rock is one of my favourite wrestlers ever. This era:

Great stuff and I would definitely take that Rock over Austin around that time. Austin peaked early on in his run. 1996 and 1997. Rock became stale for a while and then Hollywood Rock came around, another of my all time favourites.



I'm with you for that ridiculous stuff. Something that sounds like potential crap on paper but was solid, and honestly in story terms I would have enjoyed them embracing the potential those gimmicks had together. My main memory of the match is that it was a solid showcase for Rikishi's athleticism, and Venis was always a really good seller.

When you look up his best/funniest promos, hes almost ALWAYS dressed in that outfit. Peak Rock.

 

[These Are The Days]

Yup that's the one.

Had to stop halfway through because I had to go to sleep then work for a few days but the Venis/Rikishi match was amazing. Until Tazz screwed it up. I liked his random attacks on babyfaces but when it's done to wreck a great match like that it genuinely irritates me.

E&C need to defend their tag titles on Raw. I get the blatant DQ to win for the night for as long as it sets something like that up. Otherwise it's cheap heat and they do enough of it already. But the way they mock the local crowds is FUNNY as hell. The JFK assassination bit was dark man.


I'm not there yet but I don't see any universe where Jericho goes over HHH in last man standing. There hasn't been but like 1 match without Dogg/X-Pac swooping in like always. Unless Jericho does something clever like lock them in a freezer. Or unless.... And I'll get there in a second


The "Flowers from Angle" thing is obviously a Jericho ploy and if it screws up Angle's match with Taker too this could be one of the most disappointing PPV's in some time. If that happens then maybe Angle screws HHH over at the end to put Jericho over. And daddy's little girl gets more attention than she already has.

Very vague recollections are becoming more frequent. I must've had brief access to a cable TV in 2000 for small bits and pieces. Like I know Stephanie is gonna lie about being pregnant at some point. I know Kurt is gonna go full Milk Truck (I think everyone's seem that moment) And I've got the old N64 games filling in blanks i.e I know RTC is gonna get Godfather, Venis and Ivory. That gimmick is legitimately laugh out loud funny right now but I remember their matches having booking worse than DX. God help me.

 

[These Are The Days]

Took a break after Fully Loaded. Genuinely disappointed again. This AE watch through is becoming actual work. I knew the Rock was gonna beat Benoit but the whole thing "reverse the DQ" thing is so blatantly over-complicated. Tazz f***s up a near 5 star match with Rikishi and Venis, Angle puts on cunning heel work only to get destroyed (I'm okay with it to a degree, it's just that in this stage the heel usually goes over at first) and WWF did the near impossible by actually surprising me with HHH/Jericho not being screwed with by DX. The Game Always Wins might as well be written in blood too but I'll give kudos to a good match. It was legitimately awesome and finished at 100 mph despite going half speed most of the way.

But onto the next night on Raw. Stephanie gets saved (again) the second she goes into a ring she has no business being in (cheap heat alert) and you can tell Charles Wright is legitimately depressed his gimmick (one of the best WWF ever had and could have kept going for years ahead) is coming to an end. I guess I'll watch the match and cry

 

[These Are The Days]

"Go for the gotcha moment. Even if it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever"

-WWF 2000 with Big Show coming back and immediately teaming with Shane O'Mac after a lengthy feud that put Show out of action for weeks

 

[These Are The Days]

Foley as commish is eleventy kazillion percent unsustainable. If he even makes it to fall 2000 I'll be impressed. The heels on power trips paradigm cannot simply vanish for so long after nothing but that for like 2 years.

I'm vaguely recalling Perry Saturn and "Moppy" and him blatantly ignoring some woman I could not remember. It's gotta be Terri and it's gotta be soon I think. I don't know how the hell I remembered that but maybe this is why people retrace their steps during amnesia treatment. I'm starting to wonder if I didn't catch a couple weeks of programming on the old rabbit ears on UPN 44 while on summer break between my 5th and 6th grade years. It would make sense if I'm remembering Right To Censor too

 

[These Are The Days]

I can't say it enough times. Edge and Christian are amazing. They and DX run off arguably the cheapest heat in the business but they are so genuinely entertaining in everything they do. And then follow it up with putting on stellar matches every time they're out there. These are heels done right. They're almost as good at it as The Rock was in The Nation era. Honorable mention to Shawn Michaels 1997 too.

 

[These Are The Days]

I'm in the 1st week of August 2000 and I swear this company literally gets off on pulling the GEICO "you almost had it" fisherman skit every week. Like I don't mind it. but we're going on like 10 months of non-stop Haitch and there's been 1 payoff of him losing his belt and getting put through a table. Stephanie is more Teflon than all of DX. I should have just shut up and enjoyed the Austin/McMahon feud giving the fans what they wanted to see every week regardless of how nonsensical and (slightly less) predictable it was.

 

[These Are The Days]

Well finally after months of dicking around with a slow burn, the Angle/HHH quagmire over Stephanie is yielding something else other than bickering for 10 minutes every night and hogging the damn screen. Oh yeah, and Stephanie is worse than Lesnar ever was in his return. I quit WWE because I wasn't going to sit through a champion who didn't even wrestle on TV, nevermind defend the belt unless it was Mania, SummerSlam, Royal Rumble or Survivor Series. She's set back women's wrestling more than Sable, Ivory or Kat's smut matches ever have.

I'm slightly, SLIGHTLY optimistic that starting soon I'm going to see why 2000 was considered to be so amazing. All the ingredients are in the pot. Now cook the damn thing. There aren't many matches I can think of that are better than HHH/Angle. Nevermind adding the Rock. There's no way Austin isn't coming back soon either.



Edit: Wait a minute what the HELL? One of Godfather's former *ahem* "escorts" just got called Victoria? Holy shit it's her! Man talk about working your way up the ladder all that time later. Props to you girl

 

[These Are The Days]

Man... Taker is just getting the shit beat out of him every week. Big Show and the gang drop a damn cinder block on him, Kane chokeslams him through the ring, Kane beats the hell out of him again. The Badass has done nothing but get his ass kicked since returning

 

[These Are The Days]

3 days from SummerSlam 2000 and a few thoughts halfway through Smackdown! I'm stopping because I'm mentally preparing myself for some shit at the end

- Haitch is gonna win the belt back isn't he? The whole "Austin needs his belt back" thing is real. I have no earthly clue when he's coming back but I can't see that just dying.
- Stephanie seriously needed Angle and Haitch to basically kill each other, a spine buster from Rock and a moonsault from Lita just to lose her title? This is ridiculous. Now she's out there kvetching like hubby that she got screwed and wants a rematch. God don't let her win it back. I like champs who actually defend their title.
- I don't ask for much. Let Edge and Christian retain in the TLC match. Give me just a few more minutes with my boys wearing absurd glasses and 200 gallon cowboy hats every time they're in the south. Then let the Hardys have it. They've earned it. The Dudleys can put people through tables and everyone will love it.
- Can we give T&A like a real push here instead of playing around with them? I don't care much for Trish (she's always great to look at) but those guys have figured it out. This is a good, decent heel team we have here. Edge and Christian can't pull all the weight.
- This is stupid to complain about but GOD do I love me some Kane. He was absolutely at Taker's level in terms of aura and awe. The world just stops when his music hits. I think his match with Taker is the match I am most excited for. I am chomping at the bit for their story to continue. Every time these 2 dinosaurs fight it's amazing.

It was his choice to give the Mania streak to Brock but I wish to God he hadn't. Kane ending the streak at Mania and Taker's career via casket match and carried off by druids would've been the greatest poetry. He doesn't come back. You don't hear from him. Undertaker vanishes no less suddenly than he arrived. All Kane would have had to do is say "We both know I died in that fire long ago with our parents. And you know it always had to be me who laid you to rest. Death is coming for you brother. To finish what you started."

- I miss D'Lo Brown. Like he's teamed up with Chaz (welcome back bud) but I have to imagine his heart wasn't in it as much after accidentally crippling Droz. I can't even imagine going on as he did after that. That would have done me in no question. Huge kudos to you. I pray you get one more run with the European strap
- Random thought: What ever happened to Man's Man Regal? Dude was a thing for like 5 weeks however long ago that was. He just straight up vanished. This is about as random as whatever the hell the name of that German wrestler they promoted the hell out of in 1997 that never showed up.
- I know Molly Holly became a thing eventually. Is that happening soon? I wonder. But this is of course me having years mixed up. I'm gonna mark when she shows up.
- Give Crash the Hardcore title back already. I like Steve Blackman but he could've had any of the other ones
- I love you Eddie. And yeah, I still love you despite what happened Chris. The love of my life was enslaved to the demon of methamphetamine for years and it made her do things I couldn't even imagine. I have to imagine whatever demons you had is what made you do what you did. Not because you were a bad person deep down.
- Rikishi is f***ing HYPE dude. The man pours charisma out of every pore. He might be my favorite babyface aside from Jericho.
- Shane gets an unbearable amount of screen time. I don't dislike him but this is getting to be too much.
- I can't think of something I have ever cared less about than X-Pac and Road Dogg having a one on one match. These guys have burned me the hell out. Maybe Truth Commission, DOA and Los Boricuas fighting to no point every week in 1997 along with The Oddities?




Edit: Angle just smooched the hell out of Stephanie. LMAO. I'm laughing at how dumb this whole thing is.

 

[These Are The Days]

Oh my God. No. NO! NOOO!!!

The opening vignette of SummerSlam 2000 is black and white. There's the drama happy/sad faces and it's all vaudeville style. My cultured swine ass knows from video games these moments were used in Christian's titantron and it said "at last you're on your own" and in the Valentine's Day massacre it foreshadowed the coming of Big Show with the 3, 2, 1 countdown like a movie. As time goes by, I'm able to piece together stuff that happened in 2002/2003 when I first became a fulltime fan because before that, all I had was No Mercy and Wrestlemania 2000 on the N64 and Wrestlemania X8 on the gamecube

I swear to f***ing God he better not betray Edge. No. NO DAMN IT! I will not accept this as my reality. This better be recycled content because I am NOT ready to be hurt like this.

I'm like 2 minutes into SummerSlam and I'm having a panic attack. This cannot happen. I was promised a 37 second pose!!!

I don't know if I can do this boys