Classic Wrestling Discussion: Part III & Wrestler Poll

[These Are The Days]

God I absolutely love Edge and Christian as arrogant tweeners/heels. You'll see acts try what they are doing and don't succeed even a fraction of it. Oh yeah and Kurt Angle is so amazing he almost convinced me to go celibate. He and Jericho are always competing for #1 in my heart.

 

[JackSlater]

Well I never got to watch the Attitude Era when it happened so I started my journey in March 1997 and have made it to May 2000. I'm glad I was wrong about Backlash. Rock wins. But of course it took Austin to do it.


I actually love HHH as a heel. He's exactly how I'd draw one up. The problem is you don't book a heel champion like this from night after SummerSlam '99 til after Mania 2000. That is just way too long and way too many screw jobs for fans to wait for a payoff. Mick Foley's career basically died to put HHH over. By Royal Rumble 2000 I burned out because I also was certain (and correctly guessed) of more "LOL GOTCHA!!" from Vince because ya know "predictable" and wasn't ready to watch months of potentially wasted programming.

I never thought the company would top Austin '98 in a champs dumb luck but here we are

I never cared for him. He barely even had a gimmick or distinguishable characteristics other than "guy who is always champion or inevitably on the path to be champion". Most of his heel stuff was just based around the inevitability of his push, on both the surface and meta level given his connection with the McMahons by 2000. In the end I found him boring and there is little worse than for a wrestler to be boring. B level talent, A+ level push.

 

[These Are The Days]

I never cared for him. He barely even had a gimmick or distinguishable characteristics other than "guy who is always champion or inevitably on the path to be champion". Most of his heel stuff was just based around the inevitability of his push, on both the surface and meta level given his connection with the McMahons by 2000. In the end I found him boring and there is little worse than for a wrestler to be boring. B level talent, A+ level push.

I overwhelmingly agree with this. I'll give the devil his due in that he was an A+ worker to the same level as all the other greats around him and before him: Rock, Macho Man, Bret Hart etc. He always put the work in, did it safely and you can tell care and planning was put into it. I respect the HELL out of that. But his match psychology was always geared to that A+ push and nothing about what he did is ever remarkable. It always ends the same way: no sell on the finisher, act of god LMAO HHH wins.

I'm gonna get crucified but Austin is the same way for me. You're drinking beer, driving monster trucks, blowing stuff up, swearing and beating up the boss. Yeah, no wonder he got over. You're giving the fans what they want. The WWF needed a babyface who was too big to fail and Austin's hype was greater than the man himself. His promos are amazing but it came in an era where everyone was allowed to go up there and get over on the stick. Simply put: he was the right man for the job for the right role needed. Any successful promotion will find a way to do it and Vince was always the best at it.

 

[JackSlater]

I overwhelmingly agree with this. I'll give the devil his due in that he was an A+ worker to the same level as all the other greats around him and before him: Rock, Macho Man, Bret Hart etc. He always put the work in, did it safely and you can tell care and planning was put into it. I respect the HELL out of that. But his match psychology was always geared to that A+ push and nothing about what he did is ever remarkable. It always ends the same way: no sell on the finisher, act of god LMAO HHH wins.

I'm gonna get crucified but Austin is the same way for me. You're drinking beer, driving monster trucks, blowing stuff up, swearing and beating up the boss. Yeah, no wonder he got over. You're giving the fans what they want. The WWF needed a babyface who was too big to fail and Austin's hype was greater than the man himself. His promos are amazing but it came in an era where everyone was allowed to go up there and get over on the stick. Simply put: he was the right man for the job for the right role needed. Any successful promotion will find a way to do it and Vince was always the best at it.

At the time of his peak I was not an Austin fan. I was sick of him and found him badly overexposed, sort of like you're getting at. Much bigger Rock fan. I still have to respect his ability though, particularly the promos and general charisma.

I'll add that I don't think that the push made Austin by any stretch. He was getting massively over in 1996 and 1997 as a heel against Bret Hart (and others) before people really knew that McMahon was the boss and any monster trucks had shown up. I don't think that many people could have gotten over as Austin did even with his push. I do think that plenty of people could have gotten HHH's reactions, and more, with the push that he had.

 

[These Are The Days]

Delete

 

[Bondurant]

Don't often hear much about that territory other than how The Sheik basically drained the life out of it over his years on top.

In all fairness to Farhat his foibles as a promoter were not unique. His were exacerbated by ruling a territory that was depressed by economic decline. He was one of the biggest draws in the history or wrestling and magazines with his image on the cover flew off the racks in the 60's and 70's. Sometimes its hard to accept or realize something is not going well when you were on top for so long.

These fellas are the best source of Big Time Wrestling on the net. Channel has superb Detroit wrestling content. I am eagerly awaiting the Sheik bio that has been delayed until April.

 

[Bondurant]

Took a very, VERY long break from my WWF Attitude Era journey. Stopped at about 2-3 weeks before Mania 2000 and was absolutely burned the hell out from watching Haitch and Steph parade their ass every night and "lol DX wins" may as well being law. I could guess things hours before they happened.

I always knew there was a fatal 4 way at Mania 2000 but had no idea how it ended and what happened in the year after. I spent years avoiding spoilers of the 90's-early 2000's matches I didn't watch because I knew one day I'd try to see it all. I took a guess some bullshit would happen and Haitch would retain yet again at Mania 2000. And it was Vince screwing Rock. All that build up for something you could've just done on Raw.

I called it. The lengths this company went to for "gotcha" moments is unparalleled in anything I've ever seen.

Watch ECW instead. Even with the butchered music ECW '94-'96 is amazing. I had no access to ECW until late '98. Missed so much great stuff.

You are now in an era when everything began to die. It was not much long after 2000 that I stopped watching wrestling for years. I know it would recover a bit down the road before hitting the nadir it's at now.

 

[JackSlater]

In all fairness to Farhat his foibles as a promoter were not unique. His were exacerbated by ruling a territory that was depressed by economic decline. He was one of the biggest draws in the history or wrestling and magazines with his image on the cover flew off the racks in the 60's and 70's. Sometimes its hard to accept or realize something is not going well when you were on top for so long.

These fellas are the best source of Big Time Wrestling on the net. Channel has superb Detroit wrestling content. I am eagerly awaiting the Sheik bio that has been delayed until April.

It's true that the economic situation in a territory was hugely impactful. WWWF was the biggest and richest territory but its content was garbage. That doesn't really matter when your territory contains the wealthy, heavily populated, easy to travel Northeastern US. That's not how WWE tells the story, and it was a huge factor in wrestling well into the 90s, but it is fairly obvious.

 

[These Are The Days]

@JackSlater it just occurred to me that I had mentioned how much I would've loved to see "The Game" Owen Hart had he lived but that monicker for him was a rumor and guys here said he wouldn't have gotten the push anyway. Probably true but I think the way HHH panned out would've been natural character development for Owen.

But ponder this with me for a moment. Pretend Bret never left WWF. And probably better yet, Owen would've never pulled the stunt that killed him because I doubt Bret lets him go through with it. But anyway, it's a well known fact he was old fashioned and liked things family friendly. Calling Shawn Michaels a degenerate was natural. Hating the Rock? Natural. Stone Cold? He already did. HHH? Would've made DX even more famous. Bret already ran with a mob in the Anvil, Owen and Brian Pillman before he left. But give him HHH's push and everything he ever had to say right down to "I'm that damn good!" The arrogance and obsession with being champion you see in HHH would have been some of the most natural character progression in WWF history. You don't even need "The Game" nickname. It's just Bret Hart doing it instead of Paul Levasque. Jesus Christ alive dude. My heart is skipping just thinking about it.

I'm not about to rank the guy but he is easily one of the best there ever was. I can't even imagine how better the matches with the likes of the Rock and Foley would've been. This might, might have been GOAT heel.

 

[These Are The Days]

I love Crash Holly. This cat is unreal funny

 

[These Are The Days]

I'm on the last Raw til Judgement Day 2000. These creepy, cryptic pattycake promos HAVE TO mean the Undertaker is coming back and this time with his American Badass gimmick. Oh God I really, REALLY hope he doesn't crash the Ironman Match with Rock/HHH and do some shit that makes HHH win it back. If he does I'll get over it. I just need my Deadman fix already. I need it like my lungs need oxygen. It has been too long

 

[CDJ]

I love Crash Holly. This cat is unreal funny

thats one of the things I took away when I was rewatching that era. He was great. Good worker, great at physical comedy

 

[JackSlater]

@JackSlater it just occurred to me that I had mentioned how much I would've loved to see "The Game" Owen Hart had he lived but that monicker for him was a rumor and guys here said he wouldn't have gotten the push anyway. Probably true but I think the way HHH panned out would've been natural character development for Owen.

But ponder this with me for a moment. Pretend Bret never left WWF. And probably better yet, Owen would've never pulled the stunt that killed him because I doubt Bret lets him go through with it. But anyway, it's a well known fact he was old fashioned and liked things family friendly. Calling Shawn Michaels a degenerate was natural. Hating the Rock? Natural. Stone Cold? He already did. HHH? Would've made DX even more famous. Bret already ran with a mob in the Anvil, Owen and Brian Pillman before he left. But give him HHH's push and everything he ever had to say right down to "I'm that damn good!" The arrogance and obsession with being champion you see in HHH would have been some of the most natural character progression in WWF history. You don't even need "The Game" nickname. It's just Bret Hart doing it instead of Paul Levasque. Jesus Christ alive dude. My heart is skipping just thinking about it.

I'm not about to rank the guy but he is easily one of the best there ever was. I can't even imagine how better the matches with the likes of the Rock and Foley would've been. This might, might have been GOAT heel.

I don't buy anything related to Owen Hart and "The Game". The Game was just a moniker, not a gimmick. HHH's gimmick was being a generic heel who was connected to the boss, in both kayfabe and reality. Owen Hart was a great heel but I don't think that that was ever going to be his spot even if he was clearly more talented than Tri.

Bret sticking around is very interesting, though I don't know where else he had to go if he stuck around into 1998. Michaels would presumably go anyway due to injury and drugs, and Austin would continue ascending. I suspect that Vince would have ended up as a heel anyway since they were trending to revealing him as the actual boss, but probably later and not to as big a degree. One advantage for Bret is that Austin and The Rock had a lot of respect for him based on how he treated them when he was on top and they were coming up. Bret was Austin's greatest foil and you're right - it's very easy to see a Bret Hart and The Rock feud. Natural foes. In this alternate reality Rock may have even learned a decent Sharpshooter.

WCW imploding is when Hart really gets his chance. Getting to face off against Benoit (they did some good stuff in WCW anyway), Guerrero, Jericho, and maybe even Angle as he winds down his career? Those are some fresh matches that are beyond easy to imagine as feuds. Disrespectful new up and comer Jericho vs traditionalist Bret for the dignity of wrestling. Benoit vs Bret Hart over who really is the best in ring technician, with all the Hart Dungeon gaga thrown in. Easy to see Owen, maybe even Bruce if we were so blessed, coming in as the mouthpiece to put Benoit over as Stu's "real heir" or something. Benoit vs Latino Heat Guerrero? Bret had no time for lying, cheating, or stealing, especially if Guerrero steals the sunglasses that Bret places on one of his trusty ringside fans. Bret vs Angle over who is the best wrestler and also dipping into American hero vs Canadian hero is beyond easy to imagine.

 

[These Are The Days]

I'm on the last Raw til Judgement Day 2000. These creepy, cryptic pattycake promos HAVE TO mean the Undertaker is coming back and this time with his American Badass gimmick. Oh God I really, REALLY hope he doesn't crash the Ironman Match with Rock/HHH and do some shit that makes HHH win it back. If he does I'll get over it. I just need my Deadman fix already. I need it like my lungs need oxygen. It has been too long

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I need to just plug in some random numbers on a Power Ball ticket already. I have skipped just about every HHH/Dogg/X-Pac match for almost 3 months (in year 2000 time) because I know exactly how they're going to end. Thank God I had the sense to skip to the end of the Ironman to make sure I didn't waste an hour of my time just to prove myself right anyway.

Oh my God. Year 2000 WWF is the most unstoppable meme in the history of humanity. At least Taker is back.

 

[These Are The Days]

I demand that my Olympic Hero wins King Of The Ring. If I can't have Edge and Christian as tag champions anymore then I will settle for this. I've put up with enough HHH bullshit for 8 months. Give Kurt Angle's entitled ass the world you hear me?!?!

 

[Megahab]

I demand that my Olympic Hero wins King Of The Ring. If I can't have Edge and Christian as tag champions anymore then I will settle for this. I've put up with enough HHH bullshit for 8 months. Give Kurt Angle's entitled ass the world you hear me?!?!

Not sure if you mentioned it but are you going into all of this blind? Or do you have a general idea of the major things about to happen like world title changes?

 

[These Are The Days]

Not sure if you mentioned it but are you going into all of this blind? Or do you have a general idea of the major things about to happen like world title changes?

I'm going into this totally blind. I was a kid in 1997-2001ish whose mother categorically refused to subscribe to cable and we were lucky if UPN 44 had good service for a Smackdown broadcast with RadioShack rabbit ears. In other words I missed the entire attitude era minus a few vague memories of the Corporate Ministry faction vs Austin and Right to Censor being total twits. I've taken it to watch it all starting March 1997 and have spent however long this is talking about what I've seen and making predictions. I'm going into KOTR 2000 and have no idea of anything ever.


The only spoiler I had was knowing Mania 2000 had a fatal 4 way but had no idea how that went either. Oh yeah and I think every wrestling fan has seen Taker vs Foley HIAC so I knew that and just enjoyed a classic

 

[These Are The Days]

Just when I didn't think it could get any worse. I get to fast-forward through Stephanie's utterly predictable "title defenses" along with Haitch pontificating, "lol X-Pac/Dogg wins" and save an easy half hour of nightly programming. JR's analysis of HHH being a top heel and Raw's ratings being best when he was on is such bull. The guy is never off the screen for more than 15 minutes. All people had to do was tune in and there he is.

 

[These Are The Days]

I challenge this company to genuinely surprise me just one time in 6 months.

 

[These Are The Days]

I've made it to KOTR 2000. Have not watched yet. Going in with a few things.

1. This is the stupidest main event I think I have ever heard of. How the hell is the WWF title supposed to change hands in a tag match? Any fashion of HHH losing this is inconceivable to me.

2. Kurt Angle better win KOTR. Sorry Jericho.

3. 99% sure I'm gonna skip Dogg and X-Pac's match with the Dudleys because "lmao DX wins" has been their script for 6 months. Why? See #4

4. Unless Billy Gunn comes back in a sudden "omg he's back moment" and f***s up the Dumpster/Table match I don't see the payoff. Would love to be wrong

5. 99% sure Angle already told us what's gonna happen. He'll win KOTR and face HHH. Which means he's gonna f*** up the main event and we're gonna have to wait for the pay off some more


Would love to be wrong. I had no idea the Attitude Era was going to be this much of a chore. I don't mind heels running the show. It's they're not even good and it's based on the same cheap heat over and over again.

 

[These Are The Days]

Worth mentioning: seeing Eddie Guerrero alive again brings so much joy to my heart. His thing with Chyna as Mamacita is some of the most genuinely entertaining programming I've seen in the AE. God I missed that lying cheating and stealing

 

[Megahab]

I'm having a great time reading this. I think 2000 WWE was a great year but I wonder if I'd feel that way watching it for the first time as an adult.

 

[These Are The Days]

I'm having a great time reading this. I think 2000 WWE was a great year but I wonder if I'd feel that way watching it for the first time as an adult.

I complain more than I should but it's only because EVERY week I have to hear yet another 10 minute session of Haitch pontificating, "Dogg and X-Pac win lmao" doing the same thing every match and Stephanie setting back women's wrestling another 5 years every time she even comes near the ring or brandishes her stupid title. Counting match time these same 5 or 6 jackasses who aren't even good heels are on my screen for a quarter of the show.

The rest of it is great. T&A are what MNM tried to be 15 years ago, I love Edge and Christian mocking the local crowd, Angle is God, I smile every time I see Eddie, Benoit defends his title every night like a boss, Crash Holly is a riot, Jericho is hilarious and Too Cool might be an all time great gimmick and Rikishi drips more charisma off his hippo looking ass than most people I've ever seen.

But I'm forced to sit through McMahon/Helmsley shit because I never know what Vince is gonna do. Seeing it for the first time is exhausting because it's basically "DX presents Raw is War sponsored by DX featuring the DX experience also sponsored by DX and if you don't like that I got two words for ya!!"

 

[These Are The Days]

And I just finished KOTR. That was probably the stupidest main event I've ever seen and I didn't think anything could top Stone Cold smacking McMahon's hand for a 3 count or one of his matches with Mankind just ending when he hits a stunner and doesn't even pin him.

Like Rock is champion again. Glad to be wrong but I can't even enjoy it. Vince seriously has to be the guy to eat the pin?


Damn right Angle won KOTR. The crowd chants his name and has signs hero worshipping him. He's amazing


Lmao that WWF can feed Tori to a table but STILL can't put the Dudleys over for a win. Why X-Pac and Dogg have John Cena levels of booking protection is beyond me.

I genuinely appreciate the effort of Brisco and Patterson providing comic relief but you can literally hear JR and King shitting on them for dressing in drag


Thank God Taker is back. If he ever turns heel I'll hopefully at last have one I can like. Missed you bae.

 

[These Are The Days]

Oh no... Stevie Richards just showed up with a censored sign. I swear WWF 2000 can't go a day without annoying heel cliques. I vaguely remember Right To Censor and thought they were obnoxious and insufferable and every match happened the exact same way as the last 6-8 months of DX matches. Hopefully I'll actually like them this time around if they launch ironic censorship promos that is self aware satire like the Simpsons used to do.

Please... my only expectation is to not be worse than The Oddities, Truth Commission or any of the 700 times Los Boriquas feuded with the DOA and I've dealt with 6-8 months of Dogg and X-Pac straddling that line