Player Discussion Christian Dvorak Part 2

[Wats]

Either keep or package for an upgrade. Really hope Habs use him and Anderson try to make a hockey trade for Fiala. He'd be perfect offensive catalyst to help out the young guys (Suzuki/Caufield/Wright). Not everyday a 80+ point young player becomes available.

 

[26Mats]

When you draft a guy at the end of the first, unless you're winning the lottery like the Bruins did with Pastrnak, the best case scenario for your pick is pretty much getting a guy like Dvorak.

I would understand the point if he was over 30 and on the decline. But right now, it would be a terrible idea to trade him. There's absolutely nothing in the pipeline to take his spot. And don't tell me Wright. Wright is a needed addition to our top-6 with Suzuki and Dvorak already in place. Not a replacement of any kind.

I hope we get another top 5 pick next year. If moving dvo helps with that, that's probably better than any late 1st we may or may bot be able to get.

But a lot of late 1sts end up being good. Shea Theodore, Kuznetsov, Vasilevsky - maybe justin Barron. And Gorton was recently able to move up in that area and get Brayden Schneider and K'Andre Miller...

So I still like stock polling 1sts and 2nds...

 

[Kents polished head]

I hope we get another top 5 pick next year. If moving dvo helps with that, that's probably better than any late 1st we may or may bot be able to get.

But a lot of late 1sts end up being good. Shea Theodore, Kuznetsov, Vasilevsky - maybe justin Barron. And Gorton was recently able to move up in that area and get Brayden Schneider and K'Andre Miller...

So I still like stock polling 1sts and 2nds...

I do too... But not at the expense of perfectly fine 26 years old 3rd line C who have a very definite possibility of growing into an even better player.

If you trade Dvorak for a 29th pick, that you draft a Nikita Scherbak and that Dvorak turns into a 50 points C with 55-60% on faceoffs year in and year out, it turns out being a horrible move.

I see Dvorak as the same kind of guy as Tyler Bozak. Can play in all situations and you won't like him if he's a 1st or 2nd line C, but once he's being put in a 3rd line role, he's an important contributor and makes your C line a position of strength.

 

[NORiculous]

He has had trouble facing tough opposition though. That is a problem for a #3 C because he depends a little too much on his teammates to drive possession. He turns 27 this year and has over 350 games played… so it is wishful thinking that he becomes a 50+ pts guy at this point in his career.

As a 3rd C, I’d rather a guy that scores a few less goals but can face anybody.

That is one of the many reasons to trade Dvorak and sign a UFA to maximize the current assets.

I do too... But not at the expense of perfectly fine 26 years old 3rd line C who have a very definite possibility of growing into an even better player.

If you trade Dvorak for a 29th pick, that you draft a Nikita Scherbak and that Dvorak turns into a 50 points C with 55-60% on faceoffs year in and year out, it turns out being a horrible move.

I see Dvorak as the same kind of guy as Tyler Bozak. Can play in all situations and you won't like him if he's a 1st or 2nd line C, but once he's being put in a 3rd line role, he's an important contributor and makes your C line a position of strength.

He has had trouble facing tough opposition though. That is a problem for a #3 C because he depends a little too much on his teammates to drive possession. He turns 27 this year and has over 350 games played… so it is wishful thinking that he becomes a 50+ pts guy at this point in his career.

As a 3rd C, I’d rather a guy that scores a few less goals but can face anybody.

That is one of the many reasons to trade Dvorak and sign a UFA to maximize the current assets.

 

[Apfel Struble]

If the Habs draft Wright and if he makes the team right away, I would put Dvorak on his wing. Dvorak is at the moment clearly the third best forward on the team. Dvorak's weakness is his speed but he has nice hands and is solid in front of the net, I believe he would have better stats at wing and even more so with a player like Wright. This would allow to consolidate the second line and not leave all the work to Suzuki and Caufield.

Evans could be used 3C

 

[Apfel Struble]

He has had trouble facing tough opposition though. That is a problem for a #3 C because he depends a little too much on his teammates to drive possession. He turns 27 this year and has over 350 games played… so it is wishful thinking that he becomes a 50+ pts guy at this point in his career.

As a 3rd C, I’d rather a guy that scores a few less goals but can face anybody.

That is one of the many reasons to trade Dvorak and sign a UFA to maximize the current assets.


He has had trouble facing tough opposition though. That is a problem for a #3 C because he depends a little too much on his teammates to drive possession. He turns 27 this year and has over 350 games played… so it is wishful thinking that he becomes a 50+ pts guy at this point in his career.

As a 3rd C, I’d rather a guy that scores a few less goals but can face anybody.

That is one of the many reasons to trade Dvorak and sign a UFA to maximize the current assets.

I think we need to contextualize Dvorak's stats though. First, his numbers got better during the pandemic years so we don't have the luxury of normal full seasons to assess if they are sustainable. Then, he played almost all of his career for offence killing coaches in shit teams. What was it, a year of Tippett, then Tocchet and Ducharme? Just look at how Keller stats exploded after Tocchet was fired. Arizona was a team that made goalies look great and forwards look bad under Tocchet. The sample size is too small to make a conclusion with Dvorak, but his offence did take off in the few games he played under MSL. Finally, there are just more goals being scored in NHL currently than in the last 25 years, I believe Dvorak is a 50 points center right now because 50 points is not as impressive as it was in 2013

 

[26Mats]

I do too... But not at the expense of perfectly fine 26 years old 3rd line C who have a very definite possibility of growing into an even better player.

If you trade Dvorak for a 29th pick, that you draft a Nikita Scherbak and that Dvorak turns into a 50 points C with 55-60% on faceoffs year in and year out, it turns out being a horrible move.

I see Dvorak as the same kind of guy as Tyler Bozak. Can play in all situations and you won't like him if he's a 1st or 2nd line C, but once he's being put in a 3rd line role, he's an important contributor and makes your C line a position of strength.

I need to see more of Dvorak to see he can be a bozak.

There's more than 45-50 points and a good faceoff % to being a good 3c.

But he was good in a small sample size under MSL. I am looking forward to seeing what he do in a full season - in all aspects of the game.

 

[Sorinth]

A 82 millions dollars cap means that the "average player" on a cap team earns 3.56M$.

4.5 ain't what it used to be. It's not "very expensive" as the center line is probably the most important position in modern hockey.

That's a bad argument since assuming everyone is paid what they are worth if your entire lineup was filled with 3.56m players you would have a pretty terrible team. Having a top six that averages 6m and a bottom six averaging 1m would create a much stronger team because a 6m player alongside a 1m player provides more value to the team then two 3.5m players, especially when talking forwards. Again assuming everybody is paid properly.

 

[26Mats]

A 82 millions dollars cap means that the "average player" on a cap team earns 3.56M$.

4.5 ain't what it used to be. It's not "very expensive" as the center line is probably the most important position in modern hockey.

This is exactly why I was in favor of giving Danault 5.5M. Even if it's an overpayment (which it isn't), at least you're paying for somepnebwho's elite at what he does, unlike our other bottom six forwards on big contracts.

Dvorak's deal is fine. Neither an overpayment or underpayment, whichbis why he's one of our few forwards that are tradeable.

At any rate, let's see what he does with a full year under MSL and from there. Whether one wants him moved or as part of the future, we all should be rooting for him to have a big year.

 

[NORiculous]

I think we need to contextualize Dvorak's stats though. First, his numbers got better during the pandemic years so we don't have the luxury of normal full seasons to assess if they are sustainable. Then, he played almost all of his career for offence killing coaches in shit teams. What was it, a year of Tippett, then Tocchet and Ducharme? Just look at how Keller stats exploded after Tocchet was fired. Arizona was a team that made goalies look great and forwards look bad under Tocchet. The sample size is too small to make a conclusion with Dvorak, but his offence did take off in the few games he played under MSL. Finally, there are just more goals being scored in NHL currently than in the last 25 years, I believe Dvorak is a 50 points center right now because 50 points is not as impressive as it was in 2013

Interesting and fair points.

I get the circonstances but when circumstances last for 350 + games… they aren’t just circonstances.

But let’s say I bought the idea that he is a 50 pts guy, I still think that he isn’t worthy the hassle because he is like a worse version of Drouin, when it goes to facing tough opposition. He is less creative offensively then Drouin, slower then Drouin and doesn’t drive possession like Drouin.

I mean Lagesson drove possession better then Dvorak… and they faced about the same toughness of opposition. Dauphin also faced about the same toughness of opposition then Dvorak and he drove possession is a clear way compared to Dvorak…. Dauphin!

Sure both of those had more offensive zone starts (specially Lagesson) but it still paints something to take notice.

Obviously Dvorak has more tools then Dauphin but still it goes to show that Dvorak isn’t a dependable player and that is a problem if your the #3 C IMO.

 

[Kents polished head]

That's a bad argument since assuming everyone is paid what they are worth if your entire lineup was filled with 3.56m players you would have a pretty terrible team. Having a top six that averages 6m and a bottom six averaging 1m would create a much stronger team because a 6m player alongside a 1m player provides more value to the team then two 3.5m players, especially when talking forwards. Again assuming everybody is paid properly.

I think you severely overestimate what 4.45M a year gets you in a league where Blake Coleman gets paid 4.9M a year, and where Joonas Donskoi gets paid 3.9M a season.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Interesting and fair points.

I get the circonstances but when circumstances last for 350 + games… they aren’t just circonstances.

But let’s say I bought the idea that he is a 50 pts guy, I still think that he isn’t worthy the hassle because he is like a worse version of Drouin, when it goes to facing tough opposition. He is less creative offensively then Drouin, slower then Drouin and doesn’t drive possession like Drouin.

I mean Lagesson drove possession better then Dvorak… and they faced about the same toughness of opposition. Dauphin also faced about the same toughness of opposition then Dvorak and he drove possession is a clear way compared to Dvorak…. Dauphin!

Sure both of those had more offensive zone starts (specially Lagesson) but it still paints something to take notice.

Obviously Dvorak has more tools then Dauphin but still it goes to show that Dvorak isn’t a dependable player and that is a problem if your the #3 C IMO.

'A worse version of Drouin' to describe Dvorak is, without sarcasm, legitimately the dumbest description of a player I've ever read on these boards.

 

[Schooner Guy]

Dvorak's on a good contract for a 2/3 center even if he isn't a great one. He'll be important this upcoming season to insulate Wright. At some point, Dvo will get traded but for now the stability he provides to our center group is very valuable.

 

[Sorinth]

I think you severely overestimate what 4.45M a year gets you in a league where Blake Coleman gets paid 4.9M a year, and where Joonas Donskoi gets paid 3.9M a season.

Actually that's the point, 4.5m doesn't get you much which is why rather then having two 4.5m players it's better to get one 8m player and a 1m player. The difference between then 1m player and the 4.5m player isn't as big as the difference between the 4.5m and 8m player.

In our case it's better to use Evans at 1.7 as 3rd line C and take that 3m, add it to other savings like say trading Petry and taking that 9.5m and get someone whose actually good.

 

[NORiculous]

'A worse version of Drouin' to describe Dvorak is, without sarcasm, legitimately the dumbest description of a player I've ever read on these boards.

Keep on putting s… on the fan till it sticks because you are great at it.

Your reading skills are as good as your writing skills.

Cheers,

 

[McPhees Moustache]

Either keep or package for an upgrade. Really hope Habs use him and Anderson try to make a hockey trade for Fiala. He'd be perfect offensive catalyst to help out the young guys (Suzuki/Caufield/Wright). Not everyday a 80+ point young player becomes available.

Wild only have ~7.5M in cap left with an 18-man roster and Fiala unsigned. No way they can take on this much cap on without sending cap back besides Fiala (big buyout penalties from Suter & Parise for the next 3 years)

 

[Wats]

Wild only have ~7.5M in cap left with an 18-man roster and Fiala unsigned. No way they can take on this much cap on without sending cap back besides Fiala (big buyout penalties from Suter & Parise for the next 3 years)

Read somewhere that they might be interested in Weber to use him for LTIR cushion to help with the buyout penalties. Not sure how accurate that is but hoping there's something to it

 

[McPhees Moustache]

Read somewhere that they might be interested in Weber to use him for LTIR cushion to help with the buyout penalties. Not sure how accurate that is but hoping there's something to it

Thought that was a Friedman article that he walked back a couple days after he issued it saying it was just his speculation and he was wrong

 

[An0n]

Read somewhere that they might be interested in Weber to use him for LTIR cushion to help with the buyout penalties. Not sure how accurate that is but hoping there's something to it

It wouldn't create more capspace.

 

[themilosh]

If the Habs draft Wright and if he makes the team right away, I would put Dvorak on his wing. Dvorak is at the moment clearly the third best forward on the team. Dvorak's weakness is his speed but he has nice hands and is solid in front of the net, I believe he would have better stats at wing and even more so with a player like Wright. This would allow to consolidate the second line and not leave all the work to Suzuki and Caufield.

Evans could be used 3C

I'd love to have Poehling and Dvorak Flank Wright at the second line.. Evans should lead the 3rd line this year.

 

[Kents polished head]

If the Habs draft Wright and if he makes the team right away, I would put Dvorak on his wing. Dvorak is at the moment clearly the third best forward on the team. Dvorak's weakness is his speed but he has nice hands and is solid in front of the net, I believe he would have better stats at wing and even more so with a player like Wright. This would allow to consolidate the second line and not leave all the work to Suzuki and Caufield.

Evans could be used 3C

Using our only decent faceoffs C on the wing to promote Evans to 3rd C.

God damn Habs fans make more and more sense.

 

[1909]

If the guy is happy in MTL and with the team: keep him for a while.

If he is unhappy and wants to play in the USA: find the best deal you can.

 

[Apfel Struble]

Using our only decent faceoffs C on the wing to promote Evans to 3rd C.

God damn Habs fans make more and more sense.

In a pure development year following a 32nd place finish, faceoffs are probably the least important thing to worry about

Would you prefer to spread out the already non existent offence even more? If Wright makes the team and plays on the 3rd line, a line of Byron-Wright-Armia isn't exactly surrounding him with talent

 

[JoelWarlord]

You only trade him if it's a deal you can't refuse. If it's a late 1st and a throw-in no thanks.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

In a pure development year following a 32nd place finish, faceoffs are probably the least important thing to worry about

Would you prefer to spread out the already non existent offence even more? If Wright makes the team and plays on the 3rd line, a line of Byron-Wright-Armia isn't exactly surrounding him with talent

Faceoffs are always extremely important to think about.