Player Discussion Christian Dvorak Part 2

[dcyhabs]

Dvorak puts up reasonable stats but he doesn't really have a role on this team. He's too slow for what they are trying to build or to play top 6. He doesn't play good defense, and sure, they played him on the PK but the PK stunk. His stats aren't bad but his impact is less than his stats because he doesn't bring speed, physicality, or a 200 foot game. Danault and KK both had a bigger impact than their stats, Danault played stellar D and Kotkaniemi had some size and drive.

Dvorak was a lot better at the end of the season, so maybe he can be useful or get something in trade, but he doesn't fit well with the current team. Evans has a role, defense and energy, and he's not likely to be paid much more than the minimum unless his game grows a lot. Danault would be worth 6 million if the team were in a position to win. Dvorak isn't a bad player but they are going to have to work to make him a positive asset.

Maybe a team with more size and less speed would be interested? Maybe he improves to the point that he's a good top six player. It's certainly not like Dvorak is a major concern now, even if they really need to free up some cap space.

 

[NORiculous]

There is a reason Evans does not play the PP. He is not a good enough point producer.

There is a reason why Dvorak played on a line with Mitch Marner in junior and kept up with Marner, scoring about 115 points per year for two years.

There is a reason why Dvorak went straight to the NHL from junior at age 20 while Evans had to play 118 games in the AHL even at age 22-23.

They are not comparable players offensively.

Good post.

I agree that Dvorak was able to follow Marner in juniors. That is a one of the reasons everyone has been waiting on him for some kind of offensive breakout and also one of the reasons why the Yotes fans kept being upset at the coach for “misusing” Dvorak.

However, maybe Dvorak should have spent more time before reaching the NHL. It’s total speculation on my part but I think he would have been able to cross his offensive game had it happened that way. Doesn’t really matter at this point.

I don’t mind if Evans took longer to build his game because something worked. If you look at him play, it shows. I think he can be a solid #3C and has proven this year he can drive possession against about anyone in the NHL. That is huge, IMO. So yeah, I am curious to see what he can do on the PP. He might not do anything but he could.

But Dvorak can’t drive possession against weaker opposition then Evans and Dvorak hasn’t produced as a #2 C either. So where does that put him, seriously. He has trouble driving possession and doesn’t produce like a true #2C.

With my other posts I was mostly stating we can and should trade Dvorak to maximize his current value and it is douable because Evans can play #3 C.

Evans could do a better job then Dvorak, based on analytics. I can understand if you don’t want Evans on the PP but I’d try him but I don’t mind really.

It shouldn’t be that hard to replace Dvorak on the PP wherever it is Evans or someone else. Also, to have two #3 C is kinda pointless.

The biggest problem the Habs have is not having a real top #1 C. It might become a player like Wright or not. But without a real bonafida #1C Habs are doomed and will repeat the history of the past 25ish years. I don’t care much for that.


How to find a top 10 #1C then?

Normally teams do it by sucking, being lucky/good scouting and acquiring more picks. I don’t see another way. Some teams can trade for them or sign them but that’s not the Habs.

Do you see another way for the Habs to get that top 10ish #1C? I don’t.

Suzuki might become a lower end #1 C or ideally he be placed as elite #2 C. I don’t think will ever compare to a top 10.

So anyway, I think that if the Habs can get a good pick for Dvorak they should do it.

 

[Dirby Kach]

I'd rather have danault and his contract + a 1st round pick than dvorak....

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I'd rather have danault and his contract + a 1st round pick than dvorak....

We let Danault walk to give the keys to KK. KK screwed us, so MB traded for Dvorak.

At the end of the day, it was hardly a bad trade. Dvorak keeps up his pace next year we can easily get back an equal return if not more. The guy is a good player.

 

[26Mats]

We let Danault walk to give the keys to KK. KK screwed us, so MB traded for Dvorak.

At the end of the day, it was hardly a bad trade. Dvorak keeps up his pace next year we can easily get back an equal return if not more. The guy is a good player.

I would say KK made a good business decision. His decision ended up getting him 44.6M from the Canes. That's a lot of money for the first half if a career of someone that may be a career 3rd liner.

I can't fault him for that business decison...

We'll see how good Dvorak is at both ends of the ice with a bigger sample size...

I'm just thankful these bad decisions led to MB getting fired and a full rebuild being in motion. Would be nice to get a 1st for Dvorak. If the Canes go far, getting. a 1st for Dvorak likely means moving up in the draft. So moving up in the draft could be worth getting a Canes 3rd (which would be closer to the 4th round) than our 2nd in 2023 (which should be closer to the end of the 1st round).

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I would say KK made a good business decision. His decision ended up getting him 44.6M from the Canes. That's a lot of money for the first half if a career of someone that may be a career 3rd liner.

I can't fault him for that business decison...

We'll see how good Dvorak is at both ends of the ice with a bigger sample size...

I'm just thankful these bad decisions led to MB getting fired and a full rebuild being in motion. Would be nice to get a 1st for Dvorak. If the Canes go far, getting. a 1st for Dvorak likely means moving up in the draft. So moving up in the draft could be worth getting a Canes 3rd (which would be closer to the 4th round) than our 2nd in 2023 (which should be closer to the end of the 1st round).

Ya I’m just pointing out that we didn’t let Danault walk so we could trade a first for Dvorak.

 

[26Mats]

Ya I’m just pointing out that we didn’t let Danault walk so we could trade a first for Dvorak.

I think we more let Danault walk because MB undervalued his contributions. It can be debated what he will be for the 2nd half of the contract. But his combination of elite defensive play and serviceable offense was very valuable at the most important position.

At any rate what's done is done. Losing Danault, the Kings's MVP this year, certainly helped the tank, and hopefully us get a real gem this time with our top 3 pick. No letting Danault walk, almost certainly no such gem.

 

[RationalExpectations]

We let Danault walk to give the keys to KK. KK screwed us, so MB traded for Dvorak.

At the end of the day, it was hardly a bad trade. Dvorak keeps up his pace next year we can easily get back an equal return if not more. The guy is a good player.

That's the thing with Bergevin, the trade is not bad but it makes no sense given where the team is. I don't think it is a coincidence if the two teams who have failed the most to meet expectations this season are MTL and CHI (wher Bergevin comes from), it comes from management's inability to understand where they are in the cycle of contention.

If you take the Dvorak trade, a 24 - 32 OA + 2nd in two years is not very expensive for a 2/3C on a reasonable contract.

Regarding KK, he did not screw anybody, if Bergevin had signed him to a bridge before, he would still be with the Habs. Bergevin and Ducharme made sure he would not come back.

Post automatically merged: May 3, 2022

I'd rather have danault and his contract + a 1st round pick than dvorak....

That's for sure ahah but I think if KK had walked before FA, Danault would have remained a Hab.

 

[dcyhabs]

I think we more let Danault walk because MB undervalued his contributions. It can be debated what he will be for the 2nd half of the contract. But his combination of elite defensive play and serviceable offense was very valuable at the most important position.

At any rate what's done is done. Losing Danault, the Kings's MVP this year, certainly helped the tank, and hopefully us get a real gem this time with our top 3 pick. No letting Danault walk, almost certainly no such gem.

Hard to say this year. It’s a better year to have a lower pick and an insightful scouting tesm than to have a top pick. Some teams picking in the teens are going to be very happy.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think we more let Danault walk because MB undervalued his contributions. It can be debated what he will be for the 2nd half of the contract. But his combination of elite defensive play and serviceable offense was very valuable at the most important position.

At any rate what's done is done. Losing Danault, the Kings's MVP this year, certainly helped the tank, and hopefully us get a real gem this time with our top 3 pick. No letting Danault walk, almost certainly no such gem.

Both Bergevin and a lot of fans undervalued Danault. But yeah, our faith and the rebuild is for the best. Danault would hurt our tank to some degree. Still a big fan and the work he put it for us though.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

This board has done a complete 180. Bergevin and the franchise went from having an unhealthy affair with Danault because he was French, and now he undervalued Danault.

If anyone undervalued Danault it was this board and fanbase while he played here.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

I think we more let Danault walk because MB undervalued his contributions. It can be debated what he will be for the 2nd half of the contract. But his combination of elite defensive play and serviceable offense was very valuable at the most important position.

At any rate what's done is done. Losing Danault, the Kings's MVP this year, certainly helped the tank, and hopefully us get a real gem this time with our top 3 pick. No letting Danault walk, almost certainly no such gem.

I personally think Danault left on his own as he probably felt disrespected by Bergevin.

During Gallagher's negotiations, things fell apart, then in like a day Bergevin made sure they got a deal signed and then was crying over how much he loved Gallagher at a press conference. In Danault's case, it sounds like there was a take it or leave it offer and when Danault rejected it another offer wasn't made.

One of the biggest issues with Bergevin was he'd have his favorites like Gallagher who he'd have no problem paying, but then with others like Radulov/Markov/Subban/Perry he'd play hardball with or give a take or it leave offer.

 

[26Mats]

This board has done a complete 180. Bergevin and the franchise went from having an unhealthy affair with Danault because he was French, and now he undervalued Danault.

If anyone undervalued Danault it was this board and fanbase while he played here.

MB did too.

 

[Captain97]

He got a lot of flak this year but in the end he paced for 16 goals and 48 points. Tbh that pretty much what we should have reasonably expected out of him.

I wanted 20 goals 55 points but considering Dom's half he actually pur up decent numbers.

 

[Kents polished head]

People are going to be very critical of Dvorak because he's bound to always be compared to Danault. But in the end, he's a 26 years old C who was on pace for a 50 points season on a mediocre team and who can play in all kinds of different situations. There is no reality where having this guy as your #3C is a bad thing in the long run.

Post automatically merged: May 3, 2022

This board has done a complete 180. Bergevin and the franchise went from having an unhealthy affair with Danault because he was French, and now he undervalued Danault.

If anyone undervalued Danault it was this board and fanbase while he played here.

I'm one of those who severely underrated him, and I assume it.

That being said, the irrational hatred pretty much all came down to a couple of posters, who ironically were ready to call Kotkaniemi the next big thing the second we drafted him.

Turns out there's a reason why those "bold experts" are on a hockey forum and not in the show.

 

[MasterD]

We let Danault walk to give the keys to KK. KK screwed us, so MB traded for Dvorak.

At the end of the day, it was hardly a bad trade. Dvorak keeps up his pace next year we can easily get back an equal return if not more. The guy is a good player.

Danault wasn't coming back because he didn't want the role he was given. That one isn't on MB - well, it's on his choice of coaches and team mentality, but he didn't "let him walk" per se.

 

[Redux91]

The "Dvo is slow" stuff makes 0 sense btw lol
People say this like he's as fast as dwight king or something, but Dvo is nothing close to "slow"
He may not be AS fast as Danault at full speed, but he is certainly not one of the "slower" players on this team, no way

 

[Sorinth]

Like I said, the stats are there. He's a 30-35 point guy and that's all he is until he proves otherwise. CC was at close to a 50 goal pace under MSL. Are you calling him a 50 goal scorer? Massaging and extrapolating are speculation until the player actually attains those numbers. Caufield is right now a 20-30 goal scorer just like Dvorak is a 30-35 point guy.

You talk about skewing stats lol. In which NHL has Evans played 145 games? He has 45 points in 132 games. Dvorak averaged out to 51 points in his first 132 games. If those extra 6 points, over the better part of 2 seasons, are worth 3mil. (2.75mil to be exact) a year, would you be willing to sign a player who gives you 3-5 points a season for 2.75mil. a year? I know I wouldn't.

If you think Evans is only a SLIGHTLY better skater, either you have never skated or, maybe it's your biases you should be concerned with.

Dvorak's ppg over the past 3 seasons (182 games) is 0.56 or 46 points over 82 games. Hell is career average is 41 points per 82 games. So yeah it's safe to say he's a 40-45 point player. Could MSL work his magic and get more out of him, maybe, but I kind of doubt it.


For Evans it all comes down to whether he stops improving. So far he's improved each year, if that continues he could overtake Dvorak but he hasn't yet. And it doesn't matter that they are the same age, development isn't linear it's unique to everyone, some plateau early and never get much better, some improve a little every year, some are just late bloomers. We have to wait to see how Evans development progresses, but there's no need to knock one guy to promote the other.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

The "Dvo is slow" stuff makes 0 sense btw lol
People say this like he's as fast as dwight king or something, but Dvo is nothing close to "slow"
He may not be AS fast as Danault at full speed, but he is certainly not one of the "slower" players on this team, no way

He looked slower at the start of the year, but he had a lower body injury so it likely impacted his skating.

He looked faster in the second half of the year when he came back, but lots of people probably gave up watching by then lol.

 

[Not The One]

This board has done a complete 180. Bergevin and the franchise went from having an unhealthy affair with Danault because he was French, and now he undervalued Danault.

If anyone undervalued Danault it was this board and fanbase while he played here.

Some funny reading in retrospect.

Player Discussion - Phillip Danault: What's My Line Edition

Continue...

hfboards.mandatory.com

Player Discussion - Phillip Danault - You Guys Are Getting Paid? Edition

Continue from Player Discussion - Phillip Danault: What's My Line Edition

hfboards.mandatory.com

Player Discussion - Phillip Danault part 2

continue,,,Player Discussion - Phillip Danault - You Guys Are Getting Paid? Edition

hfboards.mandatory.com

Some of the comments from feb/march last year are... interesting. lol.

 

[JianYang]

He looked slower at the start of the year, but he had a lower body injury so it likely impacted his skating.

He looked faster in the second half of the year when he came back, but lots of people probably gave up watching by then lol.

Well, the team was playing a faster game under msl, so it makes sense he looked faster, even though he's relatively slow.

His strengths are on the dot, and in the slot. He's got good hands and sneaky vision in tighter areas.

It's hard for a new player to find his niche on a team that had so much turmoil to begin with. I don't think he ever did completely find his niche on the club this year, although you could see it building under msl.

He's a middle 6 player, but I just don't know if montreal is the perfect fit for his skillset.

 

[26Mats]

Dvorak's ppg over the past 3 seasons (182 games) is 0.56 or 46 points over 82 games. Hell is career average is 41 points per 82 games. So yeah it's safe to say he's a 40-45 point player. Could MSL work his magic and get more out of him, maybe, but I kind of doubt it.


For Evans it all comes down to whether he stops improving. So far he's improved each year, if that continues he could overtake Dvorak but he hasn't yet. And it doesn't matter that they are the same age, development isn't linear it's unique to everyone, some plateau early and never get much better, some improve a little every year, some are just late bloomers. We have to wait to see how Evans development progresses, but there's no need to knock one guy to promote the other.

We can't assume he won't reach new heights after 25, based on his number in his early 20's.

I'm not a Dvo fan. I just wouldn't use past numbers to make the point.

What I am curious about is what and with whom is his optimal usage. Once that is established, would be interesting to see what he does. If we get a good 2c, I could see any if Dvo, Evan's, or Poehling having success on the wing with Cole and Suzuki, or some other top 9 line...

 

[Sorinth]

We can't assume he won't reach new heights after 25, based on his number in his early 20's.

I'm not a Dvo fan. I just wouldn't use past numbers to make the point.

What I am curious about is what and with whom is his optimal usage. Once that is established, would be interesting to see what he does. If we get a good 2c, I could see any if Dvo, Evan's, or Poehling having success on the wing with Cole and Suzuki, or some other top 9 line...

It's obviously possible he finds a new gear, but for a guy whose been in the league for 6 years and didn't show much progression point wise it seems unlikely that he finally puts it all together and breaks out. Had he been slowly improving year over year I might give him the benefit of the doubt, but he hasn't really done that.

 

[HuGort]

Savard and Dvorak have three years left on their deals, Edmundson two years. Trades at the TDL of guys like them are very rare, unless they are on below market value contracts like Toffoli.

Cap room for 2023-24 will not be an issue if Price is retired, because the Drouin and Byron contracts will be gone, and those three hits greatly outweigh the Caufield raise.

Trade Dvorak at deadline we gain a first pick in '23 draft.. Probably more than that. Either a former first pick or early 2nd. Take the money and sign a UFA in summer. Watching the Rangers game other night, player caliber of Strome be good fit. He looked fast, relentless worker. Give you 50 points then flip him in 3-4 years get another first. Won't be him as he is UFA this summer but that kind of player.

It's a couple of free firsts.

 

[Kents polished head]

56.7% in faceoffs win %, good for 17th in the whole league among players who took more than 100 faceoffs.
33 points in 56 games, good for a 48 points pace.
Good size, decent speed, only 26 years old.
Cost controlled.
Can play in all situations and good in all three zones.

Now. Can someone explain me what's the urge in trading this guy? He's the textbook definition of the perfect 3rd line C.

This is ridiculous.