CHL/NCAA

[OMG67]

And you’re probably betting your 1st rounders or super elites will never use those packages. And would NCAA scholarships include housing? To me that is huge difference. But with the NCAA allowing CHL players in now I don’t know how much incentive there is to make changes to the education package

A “Full Ride” Scholarship “typically” is valued high enough to cover all direct fees associated to the education including Tuition, on campus housing and a food package. Indirect Fees that do not appear on the Invoice do not; however, most D1 schools have a Student Assistance Fund that helps pay for some of the indirect expenses like Textbooks, Clothing, Family Emergencies etc.

Every Scholarship is awarded on an annual basis and renewed at the discretion of the coaching staff and sports director prior to the start of the school year and the Student is informed in writing by July 1.

The question surrounding this issue relates to stacking scholarships. Academic and Athletic Scholarships can be stacked and each institution may have its own policy. However, the stacking of multiple Sports Scholarships, which is what we are sort of referring to above seems to create a conflict. My personal opinion is that this would not be stacking a scholarship. The scholarship is earned as compensation for previous work. So, really, this would be an academic scholarship and probably should be considered eligible for stacking. If you can gain financial aide and/or academic scholarships to go toward a partial athletic scholarship, I don’t see why there would be a conflict for CHL players. The CHL scholarship does not restrict where you can go to school. It only restricts the VALUE of the scholarship based on the closest institution to your home town. So, there is no competitive reason the scholarship could not be stacked.

I understand there is a rule but I imagine that rule would be addressed at some point.

 

[Corso]

A “Full Ride” Scholarship “typically” is valued high enough to cover all direct fees associated to the education including Tuition, on campus housing and a food package. Indirect Fees that do not appear on the Invoice do not; however, most D1 schools have a Student Assistance Fund that helps pay for some of the indirect expenses like Textbooks, Clothing, Family Emergencies etc.

Every Scholarship is awarded on an annual basis and renewed at the discretion of the coaching staff and sports director prior to the start of the school year and the Student is informed in writing by July 1.

The question surrounding this issue relates to stacking scholarships. Academic and Athletic Scholarships can be stacked and each institution may have its own policy. However, the stacking of multiple Sports Scholarships, which is what we are sort of referring to above seems to create a conflict. My personal opinion is that this would not be stacking a scholarship. The scholarship is earned as compensation for previous work. So, really, this would be an academic scholarship and probably should be considered eligible for stacking. If you can gain financial aide and/or academic scholarships to go toward a partial athletic scholarship, I don’t see why there would be a conflict for CHL players. The CHL scholarship does not restrict where you can go to school. It only restricts the VALUE of the scholarship based on the closest institution to your home town. So, there is no competitive reason the scholarship could not be stacked.

I understand there is a rule but I imagine that rule would be addressed at some point.

If the CHL is angling to set itself up as the premier destination for high end talent, they will want to attract the very best American born players (at the expense of both the NTDP and the USHL) and a way they can do this is by offering a pay out on scholarship packages to high end players that want to go the NCAA route. So rather than just pay their tuition, that may be a violation of NCAA stipulations, the leagues can simply offer them a cash payout, equivalent to the value of tuition and books and fees for a given school year. Such money would go directly to the player and not the school.

 

[OMG67]

If the CHL is angling to set itself up as the premier destination for high end talent, they will want to attract the very best American born players (at the expense of both the NTDP and the USHL) and a way they can do this is by offering a pay out on scholarship packages to high end players that want to go the NCAA route. So rather than just pay their tuition, that may be a violation of NCAA stipulations, the leagues can simply offer them a cash payout, equivalent to the value of tuition and books and fees for a given school year. Such money would go directly to the player and not the school.

That would make them professionals. What you are proposing is for the league to effectively pay the American players $16,000-$18,000 per year (equivalent amount of the tuition for State Schools).

The concept of the Scholarship is the student obtains an “Invoice.” The invoice is paid by the scholarship funds directly. The funds don’t go to the student. If there is no eligible invoice, the funds cannot come out of the scholarship fund.

So, in your example, effectively the players would be paid to play hockey by the league that is providing the funding which makes them professionals, not student athletes.

The NCAA would need to change the rules regarding stacking “athletic” scholarships which I believe is the issue. Currently they can only use one athletic scholarship combined with other academic scholarships.

 

[donjohnson]

I agree with you OMG...if the teams pay out the scholarship in cash they would be considered professional no different than getting a NHL signing bonus and they'd be ineligible for NCAA. They will need to work out how the scholarships get paid (by the CHL or the NCAA) but they are changing the rule based on current conditions and if the CHL starts doing something different, they would be in violation of the new rule.

 

[OMG67]

I agree with you OMG...if the teams pay out the scholarship in cash they would be considered professional no different than getting a NHL signing bonus and they'd be ineligible for NCAA. They will need to work out how the scholarships get paid (by the CHL or the NCAA) but they are changing the rule based on current conditions and if the CHL starts doing something different, they would be in violation of the new rule.

My understanding is it only relates to stacking “athletic” scholarships. They are creating a situation that opens up that possibility. The rule was created to ensure there isn’t anything subverting the competitiveness. In this case, all CHL players would come with an allotment to help fill a gap between full and partial athletic scholarships. There would be nothing there to create a competitive deficit. All programs would have the same ability to recruit. I assume there could be an exception to the rule stating that foreign athletic scholarships can be used provided there is no direct or indirect affiliation between the school and the entity holding the scholarship…. There may be an affiliation between the NCAA and the CHL but not between Michigan State and the London Knights for example.

The one variable is the “Gold Package” CHL scholarship allows for indirect payments for things like textbooks and some expenses that would not be covered by the Full Ride scholarship in the NCAA. But, that shouldn’t matter because the CHL Scholarship is managed by the CHL, not the NCAA.

 

[Corso]

That would make them professionals. What you are proposing is for the league to effectively pay the American players $16,000-$18,000 per year (equivalent amount of the tuition for State Schools).

The concept of the Scholarship is the student obtains an “Invoice.” The invoice is paid by the scholarship funds directly. The funds don’t go to the student. If there is no eligible invoice, the funds cannot come out of the scholarship fund.

So, in your example, effectively the players would be paid to play hockey by the league that is providing the funding which makes them professionals, not student athletes.

The NCAA would need to change the rules regarding stacking “athletic” scholarships which I believe is the issue. Currently they can only use one athletic scholarship combined with other academic scholarships.

Well there would be no "invoice" from an American player who is on a full NCAA scholarship to submit to league offices and as such the American players would be precluded from any benefits of the CHL scholarship funds by playing NCAA hockey on a full ride (as most players will be). So the CHL would need to be creative in somehow making sure those players did receive some funding for playing in the CHL. Perhaps they could take a page out of the American playbook and form third party collectives offering players NIL deals, thus keeping "amateur" eligibility while still receiving payments.

 

[OMG67]

Well there would be no "invoice" from an American player who is on a full NCAA scholarship to submit to league offices and as such the American players would be precluded from any benefits of the CHL scholarship funds by playing NCAA hockey on a full ride (as most players will be). So the CHL would need to be creative in somehow making sure those players did receive some funding for playing in the CHL. Perhaps they could take a page out of the American playbook and form third party collectives offering players NIL deals, thus keeping "amateur" eligibility while still receiving payments.

There would be many invoices. First, if it were a partial scholarship then the remaining balance would have an invoice that would be payable by the CHL member league. Same with any other inclusions like text books, housing, food programs etc. of course, dependent on the type of scholarship the player has.

If the NCAA institution covers all expenses on a full ride, there are still non-invoiced (by the School) expenses that are covered by the CHL scholarship depending on what the expenses are. One major one listed in the NCAA regarding is textbooks.

Theoretically speaking, any NCAA funding shortfall would be covered by the CHL scholarship.

If you are referencing “unused” eligible funds, that happens all the time here. For example, the value of the scholarship equals the value of tuition at the local university. However, the player can use the funds toward a 2-year certificate program. Although the scholarship may be worth $30k, the player may only use $5k. It doesn’t mean they cut the player a cheque for the other &25k. Same would apply in the USA if they have an athletic scholarship from the school.

 

[bcspragu]

So the CHL would need to be creative in somehow making sure those players did receive some funding for playing in the CHL. Perhaps they could take a page out of the American playbook and form third party collectives offering players NIL deals, thus keeping "amateur" eligibility while still receiving payments.

Why would they have to though? They already forgo scholarship money for players who sign pro deals. Would bet the CHL will change contracts to forgo payments to players who sign ncaa scholarships as well.

 

[Corso]

Why would they have to though? They already forgo scholarship money for players who sign pro deals. Would bet the CHL will change contracts to forgo payments to players who sign ncaa scholarships as well.

I agree, I can't see the CHL subsidizing NCAA programs.

 

[Pens2021]

Here is a question I have. What about the players who were undrafted in the OHL who are 2007 birthdays who now would consider playing in the league but previously were on an NCAA path? Players in the US and also the Prep Hockey Conference with hockey powers like Shattuck and St Andrews College. A young man from Missasauga on SAC last season is currently playing in the BCHL and was never drafted in the OHL. Would he have been a free agent to sign with any OHL team? Just postulating the influx of kids who now have the OHL as an option for next year but were undrafted. Thoughts appreciated

 

[donjohnson]

He would be a free agent if he wasn't drafted... No different than a player who was waived from a chl team

 

[MJ5]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1848856800554283265

USHL must be worried about the CHL/NCAA stuff.

 

[Kingpin794]

Yes please. Youngstown is a perfect bridge between MI and Erie. A team in west MI to attract the Chicago kids. 22 isn't bad. WHL does fine with it. Plus the influx of US talent will help to stop the league from being watered down.

 

[OMG67]

Yes please. Youngstown is a perfect bridge between MI and Erie. A team in west MI to attract the Chicago kids. 22 isn't bad. WHL does fine with it. Plus the influx of US talent will help to stop the league from being watered down.

100%. That almost feels like a no brainer.

They’d need to be Expansion franchises but I think if they allowed each franchise to protect 10 of their own players (assuming those players would jump with them), they’d easily be able to roster teams that wouldn’t be cannon fodder from day one.

In fact, folding the USHL into the CHL wouldn’t be a bad idea to be honest.

 

[Kingpin794]

100%. That almost feels like a no brainer.

They’d need to be Expansion franchises but I think if they allowed each franchise to protect 10 of their own players (assuming those players would jump with them), they’d easily be able to roster teams that wouldn’t be cannon fodder from day one.

In fact, folding the USHL into the CHL wouldn’t be a bad idea to be honest.

I think the USHL will want to stay it's own thing. They might move a couple NAHL teams in to make up the loss of 2 teams. NAHL is going to take a hit anyway.

 

[coolhandluc44]

I think the USHL will want to stay it's own thing. They might move a couple NAHL teams in to make up the loss of 2 teams. NAHL is going to take a hit anyway.

Does the USHL give scholarships to its players like CHL players ? I’m just trying to think what would be the reason you would go USHl instead CHL once the NCAA rule changes take place. Even your end goal was to play NCAA at your choice of school, if it doesn’t work out the way you planned atleast you would have your CHL education package as a fall back option. What would the USHL give you?

 

[Kingpin794]

Does the USHL give scholarships to its players like CHL players ? I’m just trying to think what would be the reason you would go USHl instead CHL once the NCAA rule changes take place. Even your end goal was to play NCAA at your choice of school, if it doesn’t work out the way you planned atleast you would have your CHL education package as a fall back option. What would the USHL give you?

There simply aren't enough teams to absorb most US kids into the CHL. Most American kids will want to stay in the USA. (and to put it bluntly, most aren't good enough for the CHL). That's where the USHL will step in. You would go to the USHL because you can't make a CHL team and/or you want to stay close to home.

 

[Savard18]

There simply aren't enough teams to absorb most US kids into the CHL. Most American kids will want to stay in the USA. (and to put it bluntly, most aren't good enough for the CHL). That's where the USHL will step in. You would go to the USHL because you can't make a CHL team and/or you want to stay close to home.

Michigan, Erie, Youngstown, Ontario is closer to home for a lot of those kids. They have Wisconsin, Chicago and….ND and Minnesota teams? but nobody is coming out of Nebraska, Iowa, South Dakota. Youngstown and Muskegon are two of the better programs in the USHL as far as I know too.

 

[coolhandluc44]

Michigan, Erie, Youngstown, Ontario is closer to home for a lot of those kids. They have Wisconsin, Chicago and….ND and Minnesota teams? but nobody is coming out of Nebraska, Iowa, South Dakota. Youngstown and Muskegon are two of the better programs in the USHL as far as I know too.

So would these two teams just simply merge into the league with their current roster and those players would be signed to OHL contracts? Or would they start with no players and there would be an expansion draft?

Michigan, Erie, Youngstown, Ontario is closer to home for a lot of those kids. They have Wisconsin, Chicago and….ND and Minnesota teams? but nobody is coming out of Nebraska, Iowa, South Dakota. Youngstown and Muskegon are two of the better programs in the USHL as far as I know too.

So would these two teams just simply merge into the league with their current roster and those players would be signed to OHL contracts? Or would they start with no players and there would be an expansion draft?

 

[Kingpin794]

Michigan, Erie, Youngstown, Ontario is closer to home for a lot of those kids. They have Wisconsin, Chicago and….ND and Minnesota teams? but nobody is coming out of Nebraska, Iowa, South Dakota. Youngstown and Muskegon are two of the better programs in the USHL as far as I know too.

There are a TON of MN and IL kids on USHL rosters. MI is probably right behind those two. Quite a large east coast contingent too. I could see the NAHL teams they absorb being out east. Create an east coast division for those guys.

I guess I meant "close to home" more as a euphemism as opposed to literally. Just in the sense that most of the Americans would prefer to stay in America for their junior career.

 

[EvenSteven]

Yes please. Youngstown is a perfect bridge between MI and Erie. A team in west MI to attract the Chicago kids. 22 isn't bad. WHL does fine with it. Plus the influx of US talent will help to stop the league from being watered down.

22 is a weird number for me. On a recent OHL Podcast episode; Mike Farwell brought up expansion. Our new commissioner / president said expansion was not off the table going forward.

They talked about a 24 team league. (On the podcast, their hypotheticals were Cornwall, Belleville, Burlington and Chatham). To get to 24, go with Youngstown and Muskegon. Then go with another Ontario team and maybe western NY?

To keep the league from being watered down, you could add another OA to each team, another import to each team, and maybe go from four to five 16 year olds. Not every team would use three imports or five 16 year olds, but at least the option is there.

 

[OMG67]

22 is a weird number for me. On a recent OHL Podcast episode; Mike Farwell brought up expansion. Our new commissioner / president said expansion was not off the table going forward.

They talked about a 24 team league. (On the podcast, their hypotheticals were Cornwall, Belleville, Burlington and Chatham). To get to 24, go with Youngstown and Muskegon. Then go with another Ontario team and maybe western NY?

To keep the league from being watered down, you could add another OA to each team, another import to each team, and maybe go from four to five 16 year olds. Not every team would use three imports or five 16 year olds, but at least the option is there.

I would 100% be looking at Cornwall. The East Division needs another team. But, if we were to expand to 24 teams, I think the East would need 2 teams. I would LOVE to see the OHL gobble up Gatineau and annex it from the QMJHL. Very unlikely but it woudl make a lot of sense for the OHL and Gatineau is a bit of an outlier for that league since all of their games (other than Val’ D’or and Rouyn Noranda) need to go through greater Montreal and all the traffic.

I like having Youngstown as well. Regional rival with Erie and makes it an easy two-game pit stop weekend for visiting teams.

Going back to Belleville would be nice but the Senators have their affiliate AHL team there.

East:
Ottawa
Kingston
Cornwall
Peterborough
Oshawa
+1

Central:
North Bay
Sudbury
Barrie
Brampton
Brantford
Niagara

Mid-West:
London
Guelph
Kitchener
Erie
Owen Sound
Youngstown

West:
SSM
Flint
Sagniaw
Sarnia
Windsor
Muskegon

 

[sbpointer]

I would 100% be looking at Cornwall. The East Division needs another team. But, if we were to expand to 24 teams, I think the East would need 2 teams. I would LOVE to see the OHL gobble up Gatineau and annex it from the QMJHL. Very unlikely but it woudl make a lot of sense for the OHL and Gatineau is a bit of an outlier for that league since all of their games (other than Val’ D’or and Rouyn Noranda) need to go through greater Montreal and all the traffic.

I like having Youngstown as well. Regional rival with Erie and makes it an easy two-game pit stop weekend for visiting teams.

Going back to Belleville would be nice but the Senators have their affiliate AHL team there.

East:
Ottawa
Kingston
Cornwall
Peterborough
Oshawa
+1

Central:
North Bay
Sudbury
Barrie
Brampton
Brantford
Niagara

Mid-West:
London
Guelph
Kitchener
Erie
Owen Sound
Youngstown

West:
SSM
Flint
Sagniaw
Sarnia
Windsor
Muskegon

Your +1 in the East has to be Gatineau. That would make an instant great rivalry!

 

[Kingpin794]

22 is a weird number for me. On a recent OHL Podcast episode; Mike Farwell brought up expansion. Our new commissioner / president said expansion was not off the table going forward.

They talked about a 24 team league. (On the podcast, their hypotheticals were Cornwall, Belleville, Burlington and Chatham). To get to 24, go with Youngstown and Muskegon. Then go with another Ontario team and maybe western NY?

To keep the league from being watered down, you could add another OA to each team, another import to each team, and maybe go from four to five 16 year olds. Not every team would use three imports or five 16 year olds, but at least the option is there.

I think the worries about the league being watered down are over blown. The league still pushes out a couple dozen NHL picks every year. Even bad team have an NHL prospect or two. They'll attract more talent when the rules change and the concentration of talent will more or less be the same with 22 teams. Probably for 24 as well. The additional OA's and Imports shouldn't be needed.

 

[ScoutLife4]

I would 100% be looking at Cornwall. The East Division needs another team. But, if we were to expand to 24 teams, I think the East would need 2 teams. I would LOVE to see the OHL gobble up Gatineau and annex it from the QMJHL. Very unlikely but it woudl make a lot of sense for the OHL and Gatineau is a bit of an outlier for that league since all of their games (other than Val’ D’or and Rouyn Noranda) need to go through greater Montreal and all the traffic.

I like having Youngstown as well. Regional rival with Erie and makes it an easy two-game pit stop weekend for visiting teams.

Going back to Belleville would be nice but the Senators have their affiliate AHL team there.

East:
Ottawa
Kingston
Cornwall
Peterborough
Oshawa
+1

Central:
North Bay
Sudbury
Barrie
Brampton
Brantford
Niagara

Mid-West:
London
Guelph
Kitchener
Erie
Owen Sound
Youngstown

West:
SSM
Flint
Sagniaw
Sarnia
Windsor
Muskegon

Bellevile Sens are only in Belleville until 2027.
The timing is perfect for OHL to return here with the 40M they have put into the rink its now a true OHL venue.