CHL/NCAA

EvenSteven

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Sep 3, 2009
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I think the worries about the league being watered down are over blown. The league still pushes out a couple dozen NHL picks every year. Even bad team have an NHL prospect or two. They'll attract more talent when the rules change and the concentration of talent will more or less be the same with 22 teams. Probably for 24 as well. The additional OA's and Imports shouldn't be needed.
Since the late 80’s, going from 1 OA to 3 OA’s and adding two imports helped allow this league to expand from 15 to 20 teams without much watering down.

Today, because of those additions, we have 60 players who previously wouldn’t have been in the league. Most of those 60 are among the top dozen or so players on the roster. Take those players away and what do you have? A watering down.

So if we were to balloon to 24 teams (85-90 new players), it stands to reason that rosters will be filled out in most cases by subpar players to what we have today. Adjust the rules, and you’d at least reduce the amount of subpar players.
 
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coolhandluc44

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Jan 29, 2024
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Since the late 80’s, going from 1 OA to 3 OA’s and adding two imports helped allow this league to expand from 15 to 20 teams without much watering down.

Today, because of those additions, we have 60 players who previously wouldn’t have been in the league. Most of those 60 are among the top dozen or so players on the roster. Take those players away and what do you have? A watering down.

So if we were to balloon to 24 teams (85-90 new players), it stands to reason that rosters will be filled out in most cases by subpar players to what we have today. Adjust the rules, and you’d at least reduce the amount of subpar players.
I would propose that goalies do not count towards either the underage or overage limits. Canada needs to develop goalies and this would in theory allow more time develop although a small part nonetheless.

I read an article in The Athletic where it was mentioned that the league might consider moving the draft back a year. I dont like that concept. I would rather they increase the underage limit to 4 or 5. In theory the league should be able to keep those handful of Ontario kids that where not playing to keep their NCAA status and it should also attract more American players.
 

ScoutLife4

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Nov 28, 2023
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I'd personally like to see standardization between all 3 leagues in the CHL.
-fighting in all 3 leagues
-Same age for draft year in all 3 leagues.

I'm sure there is more that will come to my head that can improve as well.
 

Kingpin794

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Apr 25, 2012
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Since the late 80’s, going from 1 OA to 3 OA’s and adding two imports helped allow this league to expand from 15 to 20 teams without much watering down.

Today, because of those additions, we have 60 players who previously wouldn’t have been in the league. Most of those 60 are among the top dozen or so players on the roster. Take those players away and what do you have? A watering down.

So if we were to balloon to 24 teams (85-90 new players), it stands to reason that rosters will be filled out in most cases by subpar players to what we have today. Adjust the rules, and you’d at least reduce the amount of subpar players.
Well I can see your point but also a lot of those 85-90 new players are off in feeder leagues right now. USHL, BCHL, OJHL and so on. They are OHL quality. The OHL should get a decent portion of those players now. So it wouldn't be so much adding fringe 4th liners so much as finally attracting all the talent that's available.
 

Savard18

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Feb 10, 2015
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I think the worries about the league being watered down are over blown. The league still pushes out a couple dozen NHL picks every year. Even bad team have an NHL prospect or two. They'll attract more talent when the rules change and the concentration of talent will more or less be the same with 22 teams. Probably for 24 as well. The additional OA's and Imports shouldn't be needed.
I would slightly….slightly disagree with you here but I’d assume with NCAA kids coming over to the O it would be problem solved anyway.
 

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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Bellevile Sens are only in Belleville until 2027.
The timing is perfect for OHL to return here with the 40M they have put into the rink its now a true OHL venue.

WOW. Cool. That would be great. Although, I still prefer the unrealistic option of Gatineau!

I was in Cornwall for the Exhibition game. Looks like they dumped a bit of money into the rink. New seats etc. I don’t think the rink as it stands now is suitable for the OHL but I could see a potential renovation project the blows out the South Side of the rink and adds some private boxes and more VIP style seating.
 

Corso

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Aug 13, 2018
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Well I can see your point but also a lot of those 85-90 new players are off in feeder leagues right now. USHL, BCHL, OJHL and so on. They are OHL quality. The OHL should get a decent portion of those players now. So it wouldn't be so much adding fringe 4th liners so much as finally attracting all the talent that's available.

If I were the OHL commissioner, I would be trying to find potential investors to buy out the Muskegon ownership group and move the team to Detroit and set up some type of affiliation with Little Ceasars and the Red Wings. I would definitely look at getting a team in Buffalo, preferably with some association with the Sabers and I would look at allowing Youngstown in with the intent of moving them to Columbus. Why? Because having NHL affiliations in the U.S. will go a loooooong way in raising the profile of your league in the U.S.
And yes, I would also approach the Steel (who are owned by the same company that owns the Blackhawks) and invite them into the league.
 
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Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
If I were the OHL commissioner, I would be trying to find potential investors to buy out the Muskegon ownership group and move the team to Detroit and set up some type of affiliation with Little Ceasars and the Red Wings. I would definitely look at getting a team in Buffalo, preferably with some association with the Sabers and I would look at allowing Youngstown in with the intent of moving them to Columbus. Why? Because having NHL affiliations in the U.S. will go a loooooong way in raising the profile of your league in the U.S.
And yes, I would also approach the Steel (who are owned by the same company that owns the Blackhawks) and invite them into the league.
It's an hour and a half from Erie to Youngstown... add another 2.5 hours to that trip if you want to go to Columbus. No way they go that deep south
 
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Kingpin794

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If I were the OHL commissioner, I would be trying to find potential investors to buy out the Muskegon ownership group and move the team to Detroit and set up some type of affiliation with Little Ceasars and the Red Wings. I would definitely look at getting a team in Buffalo, preferably with some association with the Sabers and I would look at allowing Youngstown in with the intent of moving them to Columbus. Why? Because having NHL affiliations in the U.S. will go a loooooong way in raising the profile of your league in the U.S.
And yes, I would also approach the Steel (who are owned by the same company that owns the Blackhawks) and invite them into the league.
All of that sounds like the exact wrong thing to do outside of get a team in Buffalo and there's no arena there right now for an OHL team. CHL thrives in those communities in the 50,000-100,000 range for the most part. Detroit metro isn't a junior hockey area. Its a wings town. Columbus? Zero chance anyone there wants to see OHL hockey not to mention there is no opponent that's close (by OHL standards). Chicago? Again, not a junior hockey market.

Muskegon and Youngstown already have a base and should latch onto the better form of junior hockey quickly. Much better to have teams hold in the small towns vs having teams in large metros that leave after 5 years.
 

OSA

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Jun 11, 2011
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Toledo would be another consideration.

Good building, strong fanbase.

OHL >>> ECHL
 
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OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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Toledo would be another consideration.

Good building, strong fanbase.

OHL >>> ECHL

I have trumpeted the virtues of Toledo for quite some time but I doubt they manage to make that happen.
 

Corso

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Aug 13, 2018
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All of that sounds like the exact wrong thing to do outside of get a team in Buffalo and there's no arena there right now for an OHL team. CHL thrives in those communities in the 50,000-100,000 range for the most part. Detroit metro isn't a junior hockey area. Its a wings town. Columbus? Zero chance anyone there wants to see OHL hockey not to mention there is no opponent that's close (by OHL standards). Chicago? Again, not a junior hockey market.

Muskegon and Youngstown already have a base and should latch onto the better form of junior hockey quickly. Much better to have teams hold in the small towns vs having teams in large metros that leave after 5 years.

Not sure I agree. Both Youngstown and Muskegon struggle attracting fans, and I'm not sure changing leagues would do all that much in drawing in more fans. I also don't believe either have the financial resources to compete, successfully, in the OHL. Moving to larger urban areas and associating with a NHL club would give them the media attention they would need to grow a fan base.
 

frontsfan67

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Dec 3, 2022
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I'd personally like to see standardization between all 3 leagues in the CHL.
-fighting in all 3 leagues
-Same age for draft year in all 3 leagues.

I'm sure there is more that will come to my head that can improve as well.
Absolutely. I have mentioned this a few times before but I will again- wish they would also have the ability to trade first round picks and 16 year old kids just how the WHL and Q has it.

Never made any sense to me that the O is the only one that can’t do that. Atleast the trading of the draft picks has to happen. Hopefully this new guy fixes it.
 
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frontsfan67

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WOW. Cool. That would be great. Although, I still prefer the unrealistic option of Gatineau!

I was in Cornwall for the Exhibition game. Looks like they dumped a bit of money into the rink. New seats etc. I don’t think the rink as it stands now is suitable for the OHL but I could see a potential renovation project the blows out the South Side of the rink and adds some private boxes and more VIP style seating.
I wonder if the OHL would put that Brampton team in Cornwall. Unless something drastic happens for Brampton like winning the championship and averaging 3000-4000 every night I think Cornwall would be a great option if the steelheads were to relocate once again.

Obviously just have to work on the arena and get that up to OHL standards
 
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coolhandluc44

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Jan 29, 2024
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Not sure I agree. Both Youngstown and Muskegon struggle attracting fans, and I'm not sure changing leagues would do all that much in drawing in more fans. I also don't believe either have the financial resources to compete, successfully, in the OHL. Moving to larger urban areas and associating with a NHL club would give them the media attention they would need to grow a fan base.
What i wonder is do these two USHL teams have the money to pay for their players scholarship packages. The last stat information I could find was that the league pays out 3.5 million in scholarships for graduated players. On average that would 175000 per team. And I don’t think that takes into account current players who might be completing courses while playing that teams pay for. Plus if these teams think there going to mainly get American players, there education cost will be higher.

Plus their travel cost would be higher and scouting cost (both for the draft and scouting other teams current roster and prospects) would also be higher as the geographical region would be much higher.

So it’s easy to see how the operating cost would be much higher for what it would be if they went into the OHL compared to the USHL
 
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Kingpin794

Smart A** In A Jersey
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Not sure I agree. Both Youngstown and Muskegon struggle attracting fans, and I'm not sure changing leagues would do all that much in drawing in more fans. I also don't believe either have the financial resources to compete, successfully, in the OHL. Moving to larger urban areas and associating with a NHL club would give them the media attention they would need to grow a fan base.
I mean the Flint Warriors didn't exactly pack the house for the NAHL. But now the area has embraced OHL hockey. Muskegon has a deep enough hockey past that if they move to the OHL, they'll show up. I live 40 minutes away and could see the lumberjacks whenever. I don't want to watch USHL hockey. If the OHL comes to town, I'm showing up regularly.
 
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EvenSteven

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Sep 3, 2009
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Detroit is a bad idea, it would be Missisauga/Brampton just in an American city. Plymouth Whalers had really good teams and only drew like 2500 fans a night on average.
Yes and 2500 might be stretching it. I remember going to games in Plymouth in the playoffs and had parents of Whaler players show me bricks of tickets they were given to give away just to try to get butts in the seats.

If not for rich ownership, they wouldn’t have survived anywhere close to as long as they did.
 

frontsfan67

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Dec 3, 2022
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if there was an American division I would also assume they’d add a US draft for the league.

Never have looked how many rounds the WHL has it but however many rounds they have the OHL should copy as well. Also a lottery for the 2 separate drafts of the u16 priority selection and the u16 US draft. U18 could be both together?
 
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EvenSteven

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I would 100% be looking at Cornwall. The East Division needs another team. But, if we were to expand to 24 teams, I think the East would need 2 teams. I would LOVE to see the OHL gobble up Gatineau and annex it from the QMJHL. Very unlikely but it woudl make a lot of sense for the OHL and Gatineau is a bit of an outlier for that league since all of their games (other than Val’ D’or and Rouyn Noranda) need to go through greater Montreal and all the traffic.

I like having Youngstown as well. Regional rival with Erie and makes it an easy two-game pit stop weekend for visiting teams.

Going back to Belleville would be nice but the Senators have their affiliate AHL team there.

East:
Ottawa
Kingston
Cornwall
Peterborough
Oshawa
+1

Central:
North Bay
Sudbury
Barrie
Brampton
Brantford
Niagara

Mid-West:
London
Guelph
Kitchener
Erie
Owen Sound
Youngstown

West:
SSM
Flint
Sagniaw
Sarnia
Windsor
Muskegon
Not a real big fan of expansion. It’s hard enough now getting to see all the teams. But for kicks, here’s my suggestion for a 24 team OHL. For this exercise, I’ve added teams in Belleville, Cornwall, Muskegon, and Youngstown. I’ve also done a significant realignment.

Western Conference

West Division
Soo.
Saginaw
Flint
Sarnia
Windsor
Muskegon*

South Division
Brantford
Erie
Kitchener
London
Niagara
Youngstown*

Eastern Conference
East Division
Belleville*
Cornwall*
Kingston
Oshawa
Ottawa
Peterboro

North Division
Barrie
Brampton
Guelph
North Bay
Owen Sound
Sudbury

– Each team needs an outpost team or two to keep things fair throughout the league. So in other words, creating a North division that includes all the northern teams and then have a west or Midwest division where there is a close cluster of teams is not really fair. And it seems that the league has felt this way now for some time.

– I am a little intrigued about the involvement of Gatineau. But I think it would be a political mess trying to acquire a team from the Q. For years, the Q has been trying to put a team in Cornwall. The OHL has always stood in their way. No doubt, the Q would stand in the way the OHL of putting a team in Gatineau. Also, how would it work regarding boundaries for players? If I remember correctly, back in the day, when Cornwall was a part of the Q, players in that area were not eligible for the OHL draft. They were Q property. Would the Q want to lose Gatineau as a member team and the players in that region to the OHL? I think not.

– The biggest eye-opener in my proposed realignment it’s splitting up Kitchener and Guelph, not only in different divisions, but in different conferences. Hey, these teams are not a package deal. In order to get the south teams in the same division, and Brantford to the west, sacrifices have to be made. Guelph is the easternmost city in the current Midwest division. So I moved them. Ditto Owen Sound moving into the eastern conference. Perhaps Guelph and Owen Sound can have rivalry games against Kitchener.

-Due to the recent instability of the Brampton franchise, if that team is on the move again, Burlington might be a landing spot. Farwell was talking about Burlington on The OHL Podcast as a possible expansion city.

– I put Erie and Niagara in the same division like they should be. I’ve taken Brantford out of the Eastern conference and put them with closer rivals in London, Kitchener and Niagara. I dropped the new teams into their obvious divisions. Each division has an outpost city or cities.
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
Not a real big fan of expansion. It’s hard enough now getting to see all the teams. But for kicks, here’s my suggestion for a 24 team OHL. For this exercise, I’ve added teams in Belleville, Cornwall, Muskegon, and Youngstown. I’ve also done a significant realignment.

Western Conference

West Division
Soo.
Saginaw
Flint
Sarnia
Windsor
Muskegon*

South Division
Brantford
Erie
Kitchener
London
Niagara
Youngstown*

Eastern Conference
East Division
Belleville*
Cornwall*
Kingston
Oshawa
Ottawa
Peterboro

North Division
Barrie
Brampton
Guelph
North Bay
Owen Sound
Sudbury

– Each team needs an outpost team or two to keep things fair throughout the league. So in other words, creating a North division that includes all the northern teams and then have a west or Midwest division where there is a close cluster of teams is not really fair. And it seems that the league has felt this way now for some time.

– I am a little intrigued about the involvement of Gatineau. But I think it would be a political mess trying to acquire a team from the Q. For years, the Q has been trying to put a team in Cornwall. The OHL has always stood in their way. No doubt, the Q would stand in the way the OHL of putting a team in Gatineau. Also, how would it work regarding boundaries for players? If I remember correctly, back in the day, when Cornwall was a part of the Q, players in that area were not eligible for the OHL draft. They were Q property. Would the Q want to lose Gatineau as a member team and the players in that region to the OHL? I think not.

– The biggest eye-opener in my proposed realignment it’s splitting up Kitchener and Guelph, not only in different divisions, but in different conferences. Hey, these teams are not a package deal. In order to get the south teams in the same division, and Brantford to the west, sacrifices have to be made. Guelph is the easternmost city in the current Midwest division. So I moved them. Ditto Owen Sound moving into the eastern conference. Perhaps Guelph and Owen Sound can have rivalry games against Kitchener.

-Due to the recent instability of the Brampton franchise, if that team is on the move again, Burlington might be a landing spot. Farwell was talking about Burlington on The OHL Podcast as a possible expansion city.

– I put Erie and Niagara in the same division like they should be. I’ve taken Brantford out of the Eastern conference and put them with closer rivals in London, Kitchener and Niagara. I dropped the new teams into their obvious divisions. Each division has an outpost city or cities.
I had the same thinking about Guelph/Kitchener but I understand your reasoning and I like this alignment
 
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OMG67

Registered User
Sep 1, 2013
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Not a real big fan of expansion. It’s hard enough now getting to see all the teams. But for kicks, here’s my suggestion for a 24 team OHL. For this exercise, I’ve added teams in Belleville, Cornwall, Muskegon, and Youngstown. I’ve also done a significant realignment.

Western Conference

West Division
Soo.
Saginaw
Flint
Sarnia
Windsor
Muskegon*

South Division
Brantford
Erie
Kitchener
London
Niagara
Youngstown*

Eastern Conference
East Division
Belleville*
Cornwall*
Kingston
Oshawa
Ottawa
Peterboro

North Division
Barrie
Brampton
Guelph
North Bay
Owen Sound
Sudbury

– Each team needs an outpost team or two to keep things fair throughout the league. So in other words, creating a North division that includes all the northern teams and then have a west or Midwest division where there is a close cluster of teams is not really fair. And it seems that the league has felt this way now for some time.

– I am a little intrigued about the involvement of Gatineau. But I think it would be a political mess trying to acquire a team from the Q. For years, the Q has been trying to put a team in Cornwall. The OHL has always stood in their way. No doubt, the Q would stand in the way the OHL of putting a team in Gatineau. Also, how would it work regarding boundaries for players? If I remember correctly, back in the day, when Cornwall was a part of the Q, players in that area were not eligible for the OHL draft. They were Q property. Would the Q want to lose Gatineau as a member team and the players in that region to the OHL? I think not.

– The biggest eye-opener in my proposed realignment it’s splitting up Kitchener and Guelph, not only in different divisions, but in different conferences. Hey, these teams are not a package deal. In order to get the south teams in the same division, and Brantford to the west, sacrifices have to be made. Guelph is the easternmost city in the current Midwest division. So I moved them. Ditto Owen Sound moving into the eastern conference. Perhaps Guelph and Owen Sound can have rivalry games against Kitchener.

-Due to the recent instability of the Brampton franchise, if that team is on the move again, Burlington might be a landing spot. Farwell was talking about Burlington on The OHL Podcast as a possible expansion city.

– I put Erie and Niagara in the same division like they should be. I’ve taken Brantford out of the Eastern conference and put them with closer rivals in London, Kitchener and Niagara. I dropped the new teams into their obvious divisions. Each division has an outpost city or cities.

It doesn’t matter how far the outpost team is. It only matters how many hours are between them and the other teams on the same weekend. For example, Ottawa is far away from Saginaw. But, once they get to Saginaw, they can play Flint on a Thursday/Friday and then hit a GTA team on the way home Sunday. There is no need to spread out the pain.

The advantage of a Toledo or Youngstown is it makes it less shitty to go to Erie. Adding Muskegon makes it a three game roadie tohrough Flint and Saginaw (Thu-Sun).

We cannot and should not look at the teams as individual teams. They need to be looked at as clusters for the opposite Conferences:

1> Sudbury-North Bay-Barrie
2> Kingston-Ottawa-Cornwall
3> Flint-Saginaw-Muskegon
4> London-Windsor-Sarnia
5> Oshawa-Peterborough-Belleville
6> Owen Sound-Guelph-Kitchener
7> Niagara-Erie-Youngstown

SSM remains a solo outpost. It is what it is. Brantford and Brampton are central and easily accessible for all teams other than SSM.

That is Seven clusters for games on the Road on a Thursday to Sunday roadie. It may take time on Wednesday to get to the first destination for some teams but once they are there, the travel is very light between the teams followed by the evening trip home on Sunday after the 2PM afternoon game.

Brian Kilrea always used to say he didn’t’ care how long it took to get where he needed to be. All he cared about was how long it was between games once he got the team there. He used to schedule Windsor on Thu, Sarnia and DET/Plymouth on Friday and saturday, then London on Sunday afternoon. He’d then do a Northern trip to Sudbury, North Bay, and SSM. Then an Owen Sound, Guelph, and Kitchener weekend. He’d take care of 8 Western Conference teams over three weekends plus his one game vs Sudbury. Nine of his eleven one game teams over three trips.
 

EvenSteven

Registered User
Sep 3, 2009
8,040
7,705
It doesn’t matter how far the outpost team is. It only matters how many hours are between them and the other teams on the same weekend. For example, Ottawa is far away from Saginaw. But, once they get to Saginaw, they can play Flint on a Thursday/Friday and then hit a GTA team on the way home Sunday. There is no need to spread out the pain.

The advantage of a Toledo or Youngstown is it makes it less shitty to go to Erie. Adding Muskegon makes it a three game roadie tohrough Flint and Saginaw (Thu-Sun).

We cannot and should not look at the teams as individual teams. They need to be looked at as clusters for the opposite Conferences:

1> Sudbury-North Bay-Barrie
2> Kingston-Ottawa-Cornwall
3> Flint-Saginaw-Muskegon
4> London-Windsor-Sarnia
5> Oshawa-Peterborough-Belleville
6> Owen Sound-Guelph-Kitchener
7> Niagara-Erie-Youngstown

SSM remains a solo outpost. It is what it is. Brantford and Brampton are central and easily accessible for all teams other than SSM.

That is Seven clusters for games on the Road on a Thursday to Sunday roadie. It may take time on Wednesday to get to the first destination for some teams but once they are there, the travel is very light between the teams followed by the evening trip home on Sunday after the 2PM afternoon game.

Brian Kilrea always used to say he didn’t’ care how long it took to get where he needed to be. All he cared about was how long it was between games once he got the team there. He used to schedule Windsor on Thu, Sarnia and DET/Plymouth on Friday and saturday, then London on Sunday afternoon. He’d then do a Northern trip to Sudbury, North Bay, and SSM. Then an Owen Sound, Guelph, and Kitchener weekend. He’d take care of 8 Western Conference teams over three weekends plus his one game vs Sudbury. Nine of his eleven one game teams over three trips.
All true. But you can do road trips where you visit clusters of teams where the clusters include teams from different divisions. Your Windsor, Sarnia, London trip, teams in two different divisions, could just as well be Windsor, Sarnia, Guelph, which would mean teams in two different conferences. I remember seeing the 67’s on a trip down our way where they stayed in Cambridge as a home base for the weekend and played Kitchener, Guelph, Owen Sound or Kitchener and Owen Sound, returned back to the hotel in Cambridge between games and played Oshawa on the way home. I’ve seen Belleville do the same thing using the same hotel in Cambridge as a home base. Using your format of visiting clusters, as long as that home base hotel can be centrally located between the three, all is good.

My reasoning for having an outpost team or teams in each of the four divisions is in fairness. I suppose you could do a division of the three northern teams plus Barrie and Owen Sound, call it the northern division, and then creat a division between London, Kitchener, Guelph, Brantford, and Brampton. Which division’s travel would you rather have?

Also, doing it the way I’ve done it, you have teams from all four divisions, who at some point play teams within their division along the 401 corridor. That matters when it comes to scouts wanting to get out to see your team play. Sure, scouts make it to all the buildings, but games more centrally, located get way more eyes than games in some of these outposts.
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
All true. But you can do road trips where you visit clusters of teams where the clusters include teams from different divisions. Your Windsor, Sarnia, London trip, teams in two different divisions, could just as well be Windsor, Sarnia, Guelph, which would mean teams in two different conferences. I remember seeing the 67’s on a trip down our way where they stayed in Cambridge as a home base for the weekend and played Kitchener, Guelph, Owen Sound or Kitchener and Owen Sound, returned back to the hotel in Cambridge between games and played Oshawa on the way home. I’ve seen Belleville do the same thing using the same hotel in Cambridge as a home base. Using your format of visiting clusters, as long as that home base hotel can be centrally located between the three, all is good.

My reasoning for having an outpost team or teams in each of the four divisions is in fairness. I suppose you could do a division of the three northern teams plus Barrie and Owen Sound, call it the northern division, and then creat a division between London, Kitchener, Guelph, Brantford, and Brampton. Which division’s travel would you rather have?

Also, doing it the way I’ve done it, you have teams from all four divisions, who at some point play teams within their division along the 401 corridor. That matters when it comes to scouts wanting to get out to see your team play. Sure, scouts make it to all the buildings, but games more centrally, located get way more eyes than games in some of these outposts.
The Soo in a Northern division has been bantered about quite a bit and it's been stated that it just wouldn't work. Especially when the ferry from Manitoulin Island stops running.. it would be a 7.5 hour trip to Owen Sound. Right now their longest trip is 5 hours .. the Northern division would see every trip being 5 hours except 1
 

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