Value of: Chiarot to Calgary for Pelletier

[Ledge And Dairy]

Romanov is 21, the other is 25

One of them is playing top3 min on the worst team in the NHL, the other a top10 team

You really want to go there?

Is being a core piece on a top 5 d-core in the league not more impressive? Also why do you just casually just change player's ages in your posts at an attempt to undermine and overvalue them? Romanov is 22, and Kylington is 24, earlier you called Valimaki 24 when he is 23

 

[Mersss]

Is being a core piece on a top 5 d-core in the league not more impressive? Also why do you just casually just change player's ages in your posts at an attempt to undermine and overvalue them? Romanov is 22, and Kylington is 24, earlier you called Valimaki 24 when he is 23

Kyllington is 25 in 2 months, Romanov just turned 22.

I'll take the 22YO who hits like a train and plays great vs the 25YO who doesn't bring any physicality to the game.

Thanks

 

[AndyRay]

Ok lets start out by getting some facts straight, Pelletier was invited to the WJC team Canada tryouts at 18 but was concussed. It is not as simple as "Pelletier didn't make the team at 18 years old."

Beauvillier is a really specific and singular example that only looks at his Q stats. Which is where your comparison falters, Beau went directly to the NHL in his D+2 year whereas Pelletier was given both extra development time in the Q, and now in the AHL. Why do you not choose someone who went and put up PPG numbers in the AHL as a rookie as well?

I make the precision about the WJC just as a reminder. The stats of Pelletier at the tournament are better than Beauvillier but Beau had 18years old and Pelletier 19 years old.

If we looking since 2000's draft, between 25th and 30th picks, only Pastrnak, Ennis and Nick Merkley put up ppg in the AHL as a rookie. Jeff Taffe, Steve Downie, John Carlson, Kyle Palmieri, Richard Rakell, John Quenneville are the closer one of the PPG as a rookie in the AHL for a player selected between 25th and 30th. Pastrnak is the only one selected between 25th and 30th to put up PPG numbers in the NHL in 21 years. Connor McMichael selected just before Pelletier was a ppg last year in the AHL, this year 15pts in 56GP. Of coure, you can name guys like Zegras, Boldy, Eberle, Giroux etc. The odds that Pelletier become Beauvillier kind of player are higher than he become one of thoses guys.

 

[HuGort]

That's actually a good point, if Chiarot makes Calgary go deeper, that 1st starts sinking quickly to the end of the round.

Flames pick could go from 25 to 30 in a hurry

 

[HuGort]

Because the assets they get back for Chiarot will outweight the difference in how much it will affect the draft pick.

Right! Flames not going to overpay for Chiarot.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Kyllington is 25 in 2 months, Romanov just turned 22.

I'll take the 22YO who hits like a train and plays great vs the 25YO who doesn't bring any physicality to the game.

Thanks

You are backtracking now after being called out, 3 players you said the wrong age for on purpose and you did it again here, Kylington is still not 25, yet you keep calling him 25. I don't care which one you would rather have, that's not the point.

 

[jfhabs]

Flames have hanifin, kylington, zadorov, Mackey, and valimaki at lhd. Makes 0 sense lol

Chiarot plays both side

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I make the precision about the WJC just as a reminder. The stats of Pelletier at the tournament are better than Beauvillier but Beau had 18years old and Pelletier 19 years old.

If we looking since 2000's draft, between 25th and 30th picks, only Pastrnak, Ennis and Nick Merkley put up ppg in the AHL as a rookie. Jeff Taffe, Steve Downie, John Carlson, Kyle Palmieri, Richard Rakell, John Quenneville are the closer one of the PPG as a rookie in the AHL for a player selected between 25th and 30th. Pastrnak is the only one selected between 25th and 30th to put up PPG numbers in the NHL in 21 years. Connor McMichael selected just before Pelletier was a ppg last year in the AHL, this year 15pts in 56GP. Of coure, you can name guys like Zegras, Boldy, Eberle, Giroux etc. The odds that Pelletier become Beauvillier kind of player are higher than he become one of thoses guys.

Why are you so insistent on his draft position being a relevant part of his success? Kucherov (5'11) was drafted at 58th OA, came over to the Q in his D+2 year and put up 63 points in 33 games. Was just over a PPG in his age 19 WJC tournament. Then played a partial season in the AHL in his D+3 year where he put up 24 points in 17 games. Marchand (5'9) was drafted 71st OA, played the same amount of years in the Q as Pelletier with similar production. Was just under a PPG in his age 19 WJC tournament. Put up 59 points in 79 games in his D+3 rookie year in the AHL.

I am not comparing Pelletier to Kucherov or Marchand, I am giving an example of a player drafted lower that followed a similar path to success. The point is you are purposely limiting comparisons by selecting players only drafted in a certain range

 

[turnagainoutlaw]

Hard no

 

[Habs Halifax]

Why are you so insistent on his draft position being a relevant part of his success? Kucherov (5'11) was drafted at 58th OA, came over to the Q in his D+2 year and put up 63 points in 33 games. Was just over a PPG in his age 19 WJC tournament. Then played a partial season in the AHL in his D+3 year where he put up 24 points in 17 games. Marchand (5'9) was drafted 71st OA, played the same amount of years in the Q as Pelletier with similar production. Was just under a PPG in his age 19 WJC tournament. Put up 59 points in 79 games in his D+3 rookie year in the AHL.

I am not comparing Pelletier to Kucherov or Marchand, I am giving an example of a player drafted lower that followed a similar path to success. The point is you are purposely limiting comparisons by selecting players only drafted in a certain range

Agreed on this. So many fans pump up draft picks where you are evaluating age 14-17 years and most of the real growth happens from 18-21. A year after the draft is where you throw away where they were drafted. These kids are rising and falling fast where others are stalling... age 18-21 range. That's the real development years if you think you got a NHL talent.

Pelletier is doing very well in his 1st AHL season where most take a step back or stall in their age 20 season. It's nice to see and yeah, I just don't see the Flames trading him. Same kind of hope they had with Dube and there is a chance Pelletier could disappoint as well but there is also a chance he is a real top 6F. Basically who's the Suzuki and who's the Glass? Knights were very high on Glass and spared Suzuki where it totally backfired on them. Could that happen with Pelletier? Possible yes

 

[Habs Halifax]

I make the precision about the WJC just as a reminder. The stats of Pelletier at the tournament are better than Beauvillier but Beau had 18years old and Pelletier 19 years old.

If we looking since 2000's draft, between 25th and 30th picks, only Pastrnak, Ennis and Nick Merkley put up ppg in the AHL as a rookie. Jeff Taffe, Steve Downie, John Carlson, Kyle Palmieri, Richard Rakell, John Quenneville are the closer one of the PPG as a rookie in the AHL for a player selected between 25th and 30th. Pastrnak is the only one selected between 25th and 30th to put up PPG numbers in the NHL in 21 years. Connor McMichael selected just before Pelletier was a ppg last year in the AHL, this year 15pts in 56GP. Of coure, you can name guys like Zegras, Boldy, Eberle, Giroux etc. The odds that Pelletier become Beauvillier kind of player are higher than he become one of thoses guys.

Where they were drafted means little when you are evaluating and tracking development from age 18-21 years. All I will say is the biggest hurdle is usually when they turn pro and Pelletier is off to a great start in his age 20 season. It's more rare than most realize. But then you can throw this in the mix... Dube has a great age 20 season as well. I'm not saying Pelletier turns into Dube but there is a chance. Also a real chance he is a top 6F too.

The development track and what he has done at age 20 says he is a Grade A prospect. Not many trade these types. I don't blame the Flames for protecting him but some who want to protect Pelletier but then go on to devalue Chiarot at the same time will be targeted cause that part is nonsense.

 

[Mersss]

You are backtracking now after being called out, 3 players you said the wrong age for on purpose and you did it again here, Kylington is still not 25, yet you keep calling him 25. I don't care which one you would rather have, that's not the point.

Doesn't matter what you think, he turns 25 in 1.5months. We've already seen what Kyllington brings, and that's a #3-4D at best. He's not physical, he isn't the type to be your #1 PP guy, he's average defensivelly... So yah what is he? Can't send him with your 1st PP, can't send him with your 1st PK, can't send him vs the opponent top line... Habs have no need for a dman like that.

 

[pth2]

Doesn't matter what you think, he turns 25 in 1.5months. We've already seen what Kyllington brings, and that's a #3-4D at best. He's not physical, he isn't the type to be your #1 PP guy, he's average defensivelly... So yah what is he? Can't send him with your 1st PP, can't send him with your 1st PK, can't send him vs the opponent top line... Habs have no need for a dman like that.

I think you're overstating your case. Kyllington might not be a #1 but he'd definitely be of interest for a retooling team like the Habs. Plenty of players are not "typical top PP, top PK" guys and eat up tough minutes every night. Maybe Kyllyngton turns into the guy we thought Juulsen was going to be, nothing wrong with that. (doesn't mean I'd move Suzuki or Caufield for him, though).

 

[blankall]

Doesn't matter what you think, he turns 25 in 1.5months. We've already seen what Kyllington brings, and that's a #3-4D at best. He's not physical, he isn't the type to be your #1 PP guy, he's average defensivelly... So yah what is he? Can't send him with your 1st PP, can't send him with your 1st PK, can't send him vs the opponent top line... Habs have no need for a dman like that.

Lol....what the hell.

It's very common for players to develop into top pairing d-men post age 25. Kylington has all the skills and abilities to do so, but he makes rookie mistakes. Will he eventually develop his mental game to overcome those mistakes? Who knows. The Flames are also not trading him to the Habs, so there's no need to worry about whether you need him or not.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Doesn't matter what you think, he turns 25 in 1.5months. We've already seen what Kyllington brings, and that's a #3-4D at best. He's not physical, he isn't the type to be your #1 PP guy, he's average defensivelly... So yah what is he? Can't send him with your 1st PP, can't send him with your 1st PK, can't send him vs the opponent top line... Habs have no need for a dman like that.

I was simply asking why you constantly post false ages at an attempt to favor your POV? That's not a matter of what I think at all.

As for your opinion on Kylington, we really haven't seen what he brings at all yet, he hasn't even played a full season in the NHL. So writing him off as a "#3-4 at best" is lazy and rash. No he's not overly physical but he's very crafty with his skating and very fast. Does he play PP1 currently? No but he earned his way onto a mainstay for PP2 and could very possibly take the PP1 role at some point since he is a strong QB with a very good shot. Could his defensive game use some work? Sure but he makes up for a lot of his mistakes with his speed. He can keep up with just about anyone in the league.

If anything he's fairly similar to Jeff Petry in that he is an offensive defenseman that is not a defensive liability but also not great defensively, plays more of a 2nd PP role and didn't enter the league right away.

Also no one is proposing a trade involving him here so saying "Habs have no need for a dman like that" is completely irrelevant

 

[AndyRay]

Where they were drafted means little when you are evaluating and tracking development from age 18-21 years. All I will say is the biggest hurdle is usually when they turn pro and Pelletier is off to a great start in his age 20 season. It's more rare than most realize. But then you can throw this in the mix... Dube has a great age 20 season as well. I'm not saying Pelletier turns into Dube but there is a chance. Also a real chance he is a top 6F too.

The development track and what he has done at age 20 says he is a Grade A prospect. Not many trade these types. I don't blame the Flames for protecting him but some who want to protect Pelletier but then go on to devalue Chiarot at the same time will be targeted cause that part is nonsense.

Why are you so insistent on his draft position being a relevant part of his success? Kucherov (5'11) was drafted at 58th OA, came over to the Q in his D+2 year and put up 63 points in 33 games. Was just over a PPG in his age 19 WJC tournament. Then played a partial season in the AHL in his D+3 year where he put up 24 points in 17 games. Marchand (5'9) was drafted 71st OA, played the same amount of years in the Q as Pelletier with similar production. Was just under a PPG in his age 19 WJC tournament. Put up 59 points in 79 games in his D+3 rookie year in the AHL.

I am not comparing Pelletier to Kucherov or Marchand, I am giving an example of a player drafted lower that followed a similar path to success. The point is you are purposely limiting comparisons by selecting players only drafted in a certain range

I limiting comparisons by selecting players only drafted in a certain range, because Pelletier never play in the NHL and the odds that a guy become a Kucherov, Marchand or Pastrnak at this point of the draft are under 1%. Maybe he will be a top 6, maybe he will be a Kucherov, maybe he will be a third liner as long as he has not played in the NHL nobody know what Pelletier will become. The day Pelletier is playing in the NHL and have descent number I will agree with you about the draft postion. I think Pelletier can be a good NHL player and that's true he have an impressive year, I would like to have him with the Habs and I know is going anywhere. Calgary will be crazy to let him go for a rental.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I limiting comparisons by selecting players only drafted in a certain range, because Pelletier never play in the NHL and the odds that a guy become a Kucherov, Marchand or Pastrnak at this point of the draft are under 1%. Maybe he will be a top 6, maybe he will be a Kucherov, maybe he will be a third liner as long as he has not played in the NHL nobody know what Pelletier will become. The day Pelletier is playing in the NHL and have descent number I will agree with you about the draft postion. I think Pelletier can be a good NHL player and that's true he have an impressive year, I would like to have him with the Habs and I know is going anywhere. Calgary will be crazy to let him go for a rental.

So in other words you decided to base his potential on where he was drafted 3 years ago and not on the growth he has shown as a player. 2 years ago kaprizov was widely considered the best prospect not playing in the NHL but he was drafted in the 5th round, by your logic his potential should have been viewed as a 5th round pick

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Flames have 3 good forward prospects - Zary, Pelletier and Coronato. Why wouldn't they trade one for help now.
? Sutter was brought in to win now. They may want something better than Chiarot but they should be willing to move one.

 

[Hodge]

What if the Habs traded Dvorak and Chiarot to Calgary and took Monahan back as a cap dump? Would that be worth Pelletier? Pelletier+2nd? Even more?

 

[HabsAddict]

What if the Habs traded Dvorak and Chiarot to Calgary and took Monahan back as a cap dump? Would that be worth Pelletier? Pelletier+2nd? Even more?

Is that serious or just an NHL2000 trade?

I didn't realize that Pelletier was a blue chip franchise player to take so much value and risk on him......

 

[blankall]

Flames have 3 good forward prospects - Zary, Pelletier and Coronato. Why wouldn't they trade one for help now.
? Sutter was brought in to win now. They may want something better than Chiarot but they should be willing to move one.

Because the value of these prospects far exceeds Chariot. What are the odds of all three working out? The Flames desperately need low cost forwards for next year, as they will likely have to move guys like Monahan, Backlund, etc...to make room for raises going to Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Mangiapane, and Kylington.

 

[Hodge]

Is that serious or just an NHL2000 trade?

I didn't realize that Pelletier was a blue chip franchise player to take so much value and risk on him......

Pelletier+1st? Pelletier is not a franchise player but point per game in the AHL at 20 gives him a good chance to be a top six forward who's around the same age as Caufield and Suzuki.

 

[Habs Halifax]

What if the Habs traded Dvorak and Chiarot to Calgary and took Monahan back as a cap dump? Would that be worth Pelletier? Pelletier+2nd? Even more?

Interesting idea and not sure if the Flames are open to it.

Dvorak is not worth what we paid to acquire so maybe his value today is two 2nd's? Not sure to be honest. He is signed for 3 more years after this season at a fair cap hit. Not sure if Monahan is a real cap dump even if the Flames are using him on the 4th line. Signed for 1 more year after this season at a much higher cap hit that what you would like. His cap hit is the problem. Maybe the difference is a 2nd rounder between these two? Flames get a cost controlled 3C in Dvorak with term in prime years where it helps the Flames free up cap space for next season which would be of value to them.

Does that make up the difference in Chiarot vs the Flames Grade A in Pelletier. Not sure but it's an interesting idea. Chiarot at 50% with Dvorak is slightly less cap hit than Monahan so it does fit the Flames cap this year.

I think I might make this move and not ask for anything on top of Pelletier. It depends though cause we don't know what others are offering for Chiarot alone. And this actually reduces the Habs cap for next season with the Dvorak/Monahan swap. I believe the Habs prefer not to have Weber on LTIR before the season starts again.

For as much as I like Pelletier, I might try to move both Chiarot and Dvorak in separate deals. Interesting idea and I'm on the fence about it.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Pelletier+1st? Pelletier is not a franchise player but point per game in the AHL at 20 gives him a good chance to be a top six forward who's around the same age as Caufield and Suzuki.

A playoff warrior who may or may not help the Flames go on a deep run
vs
A Grade A prospect on a good development track who may or may not be a top 6F.

Pelletier is indeed a grade A prospect doing well as a 20 year old in the AHL. I know how some are going to flip out in defense of Pelletier but he is on the #1 ranked AHL team right now too. Non factor right?

Probability Pelletier is a top 6F in the NHL? No friggen idea. Just trying to gauge his potential and make no mistake, he is a Grade A prospect. However, Dube had good AHL numbers in his age 20 season as well. When Dube put up those numbers, he was on the 29th ranked team that year. Go figue eh.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Pelletier+1st? Pelletier is not a franchise player but point per game in the AHL at 20 gives him a good chance to be a top six forward who's around the same age as Caufield and Suzuki.

Canadiens have their 1st. They won't trade a 2023 1st.