Player Discussion Charlie McAvoy IV

[Dennis Bonvie]

Fox to me is not as good as McAvoy.The Norris is about points not overall defence.Winning the Norris though sure is gas for an argument

I think Fox has been substantially better than Charlie this season.

 

[Dr Hook]

I think Fox has been substantially better than Charlie this season.

In what areas of the game? You honestly think he has been a better defender than McAvoy this season? And anyway, I am not interested in half season sample sizes. Unless Adam Fox clearly emerges as an elite two-way force, I am sticking to my opinion on this.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Did you watch Josi when they played the Bruins ? He's way better than McAvoy right now too.

Add in Letang and Ekblad right now also.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

Add in Letang and Ekblad right now also.

Letang?!? Come on man.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

In what areas of the game? You honestly think he has been a better defender than McAvoy this season? And anyway, I am not interested in half season sample sizes. Unless Adam Fox clearly emerges as an elite two-way force, I am sticking to my opinion on this.

How about all of them?

And not to burst your bubble, but Fox already is an elite 2 way force.

Last season:

	Fox	McAvoy
Points	47	30
CFrel	8.6	4.5
d-zone start	48%	48%
PK TOI	2:36/gm	2:24/gm
on ice GA/60	2.2	2.3
5x5 on ice GA/60	1.8	2.1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

In what areas of the game? You honestly think he has been a better defender than McAvoy this season? And anyway, I am not interested in half season sample sizes. Unless Adam Fox clearly emerges as an elite two-way force, I am sticking to my opinion on this.

He already is an elite two-way force. And yes I think he has been a better defender this season.

McAvoy still makes way more mistakes defensively than Fox. Fox is much like Lidstrom was in that he's methodical in positioning and poised with the puck. And though McAvoy makes big hits and looks great rushing the puck, his production isn't close to Fox's, especially at even strength.

Time on ice:
McAvoy 24:19
Fox 24:39

Takeaways/Giveaways:
McAvoy 12/36
Fox 43/33

Blocks/Hits
McAvoy 64/75
Fox 90/22

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Letang?!? Come on man.

Letang is playing 25:48 per game.

Has 35 points in 37 games. 2nd on his team.

Is a +17, best on his team by far.

And his team is doing surprisingly well.

 

[22Brad Park]

I think Fox has been substantially better than Charlie this season.

Depends how you look at it.

 

[Bearcrap]

Depends how you look at it.

sure....with your Bruins glasses on or off

 

[burstnbloom]

He already is an elite two-way force. And yes I think he has been a better defender this season.

McAvoy still makes way more mistakes defensively than Fox. Fox is much like Lidstrom was in that he's methodical in positioning and poised with the puck. And though McAvoy makes big hits and looks great rushing the puck, his production isn't close to Fox's, especially at even strength.

Time on ice:
McAvoy 24:19
Fox 24:39

Takeaways/Giveaways:
McAvoy 12/36
Fox 43/33

Blocks/Hits
McAvoy 64/75
Fox 90/22

They are pretty equal in value. Fox is a bit better at offense 5v5 and Chuck is a better defender.

 

[Dr Hook]

They are pretty equal in value. Fox is a bit better at offense 5v5 and Chuck is a better defender.

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I am not a huge advanced stats guy, but neither do I dismiss them out of hand- they tell us something of value in every case. This just confirms what I believe- McAvoy is a better defender, Fox is better offensively. I don't know why that is a debate- watch them play and you can see it plain- nor do I get why it matters who is "better." Better is entirely down to what you need/want in a given situation. I lean towards the guy who is more defensively responsible in most cases, and here too. But your mileage will vary and I can certainly see why many would prefer Adam Fox.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

They are pretty equal in value. Fox is a bit better at offense 5v5 and Chuck is a better defender.

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The fact that Fox all but matches him defensively means I'm taking Fox there too.

All the fancy advanced stats you posted depend on the other 4 guys on the ice with that player...in McAvoy's case that includes Bergeron and Marchand...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I am not a huge advanced stats guy, but neither do I dismiss them out of hand- they tell us something of value in every case. This just confirms what I believe- McAvoy is a better defender, Fox is better offensively. I don't know why that is a debate- watch them play and you can see it plain- nor do I get why it matters who is "better." Better is entirely down to what you need/want in a given situation. I lean towards the guy who is more defensively responsible in most cases, and here too. But your mileage will vary and I can certainly see why many would prefer Adam Fox.

Can't see how you watch these two guys play and think McAvoy is more defensively responsible.

 

[burstnbloom]

The fact that Fox all but matches him defensively means I'm taking Fox there too.

All the fancy advanced stats you posted depend on the other 4 guys on the ice with that player...in McAvoy's case that includes Bergeron and Marchand...

You posted a bunch of "advanced stats" in your last post that said the exact same thing, you just didn't draw the same conclusion because it doesn't fit your narrative. The difference between the two of them offensively is actually smaller than the difference between them defensively. Both are GREAT players. You can't go wrong with either of them.

As for your "teammates effect" argument. Sure, Charlie plays with good players. The Rangers also have good players.

The last three years, the Bruins have an xG of 58.21 with Charlie McAvoy on the ice w/o Bergeron and Marchand.

The last three years, the Rangers have an xG% of 50.92 with Adam Fox on the ice w/o Panarin and Strome, their top line.

I don't understand why people don't check these things before making the argument.'

edit - Also, the Boston fan's insistence on eating their own best players is among the most insane, self-loathing, behavior any fan base in sports exhibits.

 

[Dr Hook]

Can't see how you watch these two guys play and think McAvoy is more defensively responsible.

I can't see how you you don't think that.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You posted a bunch of "advanced stats" in your last post that said the exact same thing, you just didn't draw the same conclusion because it doesn't fit your narrative. The difference between the two of them offensively is actually smaller than the difference between them defensively. Both are GREAT players. You can't go wrong with either of them.

As for your "teammates effect" argument. Sure, Charlie plays with good players. The Rangers also have good players.

The last three years, the Bruins have an xG of 58.21 with Charlie McAvoy on the ice w/o Bergeron and Marchand.

The last three years, the Rangers have an xG% of 50.92 with Adam Fox on the ice w/o Panarin and Strome, their top line.

I don't understand why people don't check these things before making the argument.'

edit - Also, the Boston fan's insistence on eating their own best players is among the most insane, self-loathing, behavior any fan base in sports exhibits.

So anything short of saying McAvoy is better than the current Norris Trophy winner is insane self-loathing behavior? Couldn't just be an objective opinion based on watching them play?

 

[burstnbloom]

So anything short of saying McAvoy is better than the current Norris Trophy winner is insane self-loathing behavior? Couldn't just be an objective opinion based on watching them play?

Well, its not an objective opinion. It's subjective, because opinions are subjective. The data is the only thing that is objective.

 

[Dr Hook]

So anything short of saying McAvoy is better than the current Norris Trophy winner is insane self-loathing behavior? Couldn't just be an objective opinion based on watching them play?

I think you mean subjective here

 

[burstnbloom]

I think you mean subjective here

hi five

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I can't see how you you don't think that.

McAvoy is up ice way more than Fox. On the PP he gets burnt by breakaways more often, usually by his own reckless play. Fox averages more PK time per game. Fox takes the puck away more than he gives it away. McAvoy gives it away 3 times as much as he takes it away.

 

[DarrenBanks56]

I dont watch much of Fox, but god damn that SO goal last nite was saweet. Looked like a right-handed Jesper Bratt fake forehand. Then he roofed it just to show off.

 

[Dr Hook]

Let me just state this for the record since we are all up in this now- I think Adam Fox is a great young defenseman. I think Charlie McAvoy is as well. In a vaccum, forced to choose, I would probably take McAvoy, but it's never in a vaccum is it? If you have a D corps like Boston's is currently built, you'd be better off with McAvoy, and I think they are. Fox is not atrocious in his end, though, and I don't think anyone is claiming that. Norris trophy winners typically are not. That said, the award has long been tilted towards guys with the offensive numbers vs all-around ability at the position. I don't think Fox winning the Norris says all that much about his defensive abilities relative to McAvoy's or any other top tier defenseman in the league.

 

[DarrenBanks56]

McAvoy is up ice way more than Fox. On the PP he gets burnt by breakaways more often, usually by his own reckless play. Fox averages more PK time per game. Fox takes the puck away more than he gives it away. McAvoy gives it away 3 times as much as he takes it away.

Yup.
Best way to tell them apart is one is a bit reckless and the other is calm as can be.
Fox can literally read plays like an EA CPU hockey game.

 

[Dr Hook]

McAvoy is up ice way more than Fox. On the PP he gets burnt by breakaways more often, usually by his own reckless play. Fox averages more PK time per game. Fox takes the puck away more than he gives it away. McAvoy gives it away 3 times as much as he takes it away.

I'm sorry but I disagree, and we'll have to leave it at that. I am not going to get into a stats-picking contest over this. I think they are both great players and I think based on my viewing that McAvoy is a better defender than Fox. You don't and that's okay- it's not like they will be traded for one another any time in the next decade

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think you mean subjective here

So objective opinion is an oxymoron?

I'm playing the age (old) card here.

How about an unbiased opinion? Maybe that's what I'm trying to say. Eminently fair. That's it.