Line Combos: CBJ Roster Discussion/Line Combos/Injury Report

[Viqsi]

What are you talking about!?! I’m talking about Sillinger. And him in relation to Dubinsky, and yes, Pyyhtia, who YES, I think is a better player right now than Sillinger.

What the hell has been “refuted”, miss fact checker?? Pyyhtia > Sillinger

Your logical fallacy is strawman

You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

What I asked:

Are you seriously saying that someone like Mikael Pyyhtia is better than the likes of Cam Atkinson, Nick Foligno, Brandon Saad, and/or Matt Calvert?

If you look very, very carefully, you will not see the presence of the name "Sillinger" anywhere in or near that sentence.


Why did I ask that? Because you claimed that Sillinger is, and I quote:

getting the BENEFIT from playing with good players.

(emphasis added)
Dubinsky and Wennberg were playing with the four guys I mentioned. Sillinger is playing with Pyyhtia. (This per @cbjthrowaway's earlier research and post, the existence of which is why I referred to the argument as "already refuted".)

Your claim can therefore be summed up as: Sillinger only looks like he's putting up offense similar to Dubinsky and Wennberg in those career years because he is playing with a supporting cast that is better than the supporting cast those two played with.
This necessiarily implies an assertion that Mikael Pyyhtia - since he's one of the biggest parts of that supporting cast - is a better hockey player overall - particularly in assisting offensive production, since those are the numbers we're looking at right now - than Atkinson, Foligno, Saad, and/or Calvert. I will remind you at this point that two of those are in the top-5 in offensive production in the entire history of the franchise. I will also remind you that Pyyhtia, as nice as he has looked overall, has all of one point (a goal) in 17 games this season.

This is the claim you made, and what I called you out on. The rest of your post is hyperbolic window dressing driven by what looks like being offended that someone dared to even hint at mentioning a player you love.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

The thing with Sillinger is he doesn’t score. I believe he has 3 goals, one of them an ENG. On pace for 13 which is far too low for second line guy IMO.

does his shorthanded goal balance out the ENG?

anyway that's one way to look at it – another is that his shooting percentage is likely to regress to the mean (in a good way).

What the hell has been “refuted”, miss fact checker?? Pyyhtia > Sillinger

guy with one point > guy with way more than one point. math nerds hate this one simple trick!!

jokes aside, sillinger's scoring pace (~52 points) is literally more than 10x what pyyhtia's 1p/17gp paces out to (5 points over a full season, if you round up).

I get that you need a new guy to make bombastic claims about now that laine's gone but let's try to keep some pretense that this is rooted in reality.

I have suspected for a while now that they are going to go after Marner next off-season, assuming he doesn't re-sign in Toronto. I used to be against it but now I have become significantly more open to it. He (or Rantanen, but I think he'll stay in Colorado) I think is just what the doctor ordered for them, skilled two-way forwards with significant playmaking and offensive capabilities.

seeing kent johnson cook so damn hard in dean's system should put mitch marner at the top of everyone's christmas list. he would be an absolute demon in this system.

 

[Viqsi]

seeing kent johnson cook so damn hard in dean's system should put mitch marner at the top of everyone's christmas list. he would be an absolute demon in this system.

I would be more eager for this one if I had confidence that Evason's going to be our long-term coach. (I still think we're going to end up moving on from him once this team is solidly a regular bubble-or-better team - presuming, of course, we do get there.)

As it is I sure wouldn't complain about adding him, tho.

 

[Viqsi]

Will David Jiricek stay in #CBJ ? The talented defenseman is back in the AHL as trade talks heat up with teams like @EdmontonOilers and @PredsNHL circling according to a well-placed source! via @JimBiringer

No idea how valid that source is to be fair. However, Porty did say on his podcast that some calls are going out on Jiricek. He hasn’t requested a trade but maybe a trade resolution could be in the works. Elliotte Friedman also said on a OilersNow appearance that Oilers had eyes on him. Maybe they’re just using that and trying to stir up clicks but …. Find it a little bit interesting.

Edit to this: I was told by an oilers fan that other teams were mentioned in the pursuit for Jiricek by EF. Nashville being one of them as well. He also apparently said that Jiricek just wants to play no matter what.

When a source on Twitter claims to be a news organization with "insider sources" but has only about 370 followers, I tend to think it's bullshit.

 

[thebus88]

Your logical fallacy is strawman

You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

What I asked:

If you look very, very carefully, you will not see the presence of the name "Sillinger" anywhere in or near that sentence.


Why did I ask that? Because you claimed that Sillinger is, and I quote:

(emphasis added)
Dubinsky and Wennberg were playing with the four guys I mentioned. Sillinger is playing with Pyyhtia. (This per @cbjthrowaway's earlier research and post, the existence of which is why I referred to the argument as "already refuted".)

Your claim can therefore be summed up as: Sillinger only looks like he's putting up offense similar to Dubinsky and Wennberg in those career years because he is playing with a supporting cast that is better than the supporting cast those two played with.
This necessiarily implies an assertion that Mikael Pyyhtia - since he's one of the biggest parts of that supporting cast - is a better hockey player overall - particularly in assisting offensive production, since those are the numbers we're looking at right now - than Atkinson, Foligno, Saad, and/or Calvert. I will remind you at this point that two of those are in the top-5 in offensive production in the entire history of the franchise. I will also remind you that Pyyhtia, as nice as he has looked overall, has all of one point (a goal) in 17 games this season.

This is the claim you made, and what I called you out on. The rest of your post is hyperbolic window dressing driven by what looks like being offended that someone dared to even hint at mentioning a player you love.

What are you talking about. You understand this is all your imagination, correct??

I’m making distinct points that have ZERO to do with Atkinson/Saad/Foligno and most of what you are turning my comments into somehow.

1st, Sillinger is nowhere near the player that Dubinsky was, and that the individual player “points” shouldn’t be compared because scoring is different now, along with the fact that Dubinsky played a much more defensive and “matchup” style TOI deployment, and that the team actually WON GAMES when Dubinsky was playing a similar role.

2. Pyyhtia is a better player than Sillinger, right now. Maybe not in 4 years. But, he is right now. AND NO I DONT CARE ABOUT THE POINTS.

 

[Viqsi]

What are you talking about. You understand this is all your imagination, correct??

I’m making distinct points that have ZERO to do with Atkinson/Saad/Foligno and most of what you are turning my comments into somehow.

1st, Sillinger is nowhere near the player that Dubinsky was, and that the individual player “points” shouldn’t be compared because scoring is different now, along with the fact that Dubinsky played a much more defensive and “matchup” style TOI deployment, and that the team actually WON GAMES when Dubinsky was playing a similar role.

2. Pyyhtia is a better player than Sillinger, right now. Maybe not in 4 years. But, he is right now. AND NO I DONT CARE ABOUT THE POINTS.

Sorry, I'm too busy enjoying watching the game to 'splain it a third time.

 

[ViD]

I mean let’s be honest here, Sillinger is not a top 6 player by any means but he can be an extremely effective bottom 6 player

 

[Cowumbus]

does his shorthanded goal balance out the ENG?

anyway that's one way to look at it – another is that his shooting percentage is likely to regress to the mean (in a good way).

he is young and can get better, but he is a 12-18 goal a year guy right now. If he’s a good 3C long term I’m still okay with that.

 

[AnonCommentary]

When a source on Twitter claims to be a news organization with "insider sources" but has only about 370 followers, I tend to think it's bullshit.

Teams are reportedly making pitches for David Jiricek EF reports on Saturday Night headlines.

Looking for comparable young player.

 

[Viqsi]

Teams are reportedly making pitches for David Jiricek EF reports on Saturday Night headlines.

Looking for comparable young player.

I don't doubt people are asking. That's an easy guess. It's trying to point at specific teams that I find less than credible.

 

[thebus88]

The thing with Sillinger is he doesn’t score. I believe he has 3 goals, one of them an ENG. On pace for 13 which is far too low for second line guy IMO.

He’s also a bad at handling the puck and passing, and essentially adds nothing as a “playmaker” and adds nothing to improve his linemates offensive production.

The difference guys have playing with Monahan in relation to Sillinger can barely be put into words.

And to add, I think he’s pretty terrible defensively and shouldn’t be in the PK. His “reads” both offensively and defensively are poor, IMO.

 

[koteka]

he is young and can get better, but he is a 12-18 goal a year guy right now. If he’s a good 3C long term I’m still okay with that.

A 3C who stays healthy and kills penalties. Why would anyone complain about that?

I don’t mind a scenario this summer or next season where we have too many guys who can play center and some are forced to be wings or get traded. “Oh no, our third line is Boone Jenner, Dmitri Voronkov, and Cole Sillinger. LDBB is stuck in Cleveland because we have no room for him. Every team in the league is calling us trying to make a trade. Whatever shall we do?”

 

[Doggy]

Quick comment, I think it's pretty obvious that once a kid is 21 that's it...there is no way they will ever be more than they are right now.

That said, I came here to talk about Fabbro. I know it's early but does anyone think Fabbro's play with Z might change the CBJ thought process on the future blue line of this team? Viqsi opened my eyes on him, he might be a perfect fit as Z's running mate for the next few years. I am sure some people might not see a top pairing d-man when they look at him but this summer we were told Jarmo was good at acquiring talent but struggled to assemble a "team". Maybe Fabbro's one of those guys...a good fit for the team.

 

[Cowumbus]

A 3C who stays healthy and kills penalties. Why would anyone complain about that?

Prob because he was a top 15 first round pick. I don’t mind it though.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

And to add, I think he’s pretty terrible defensively and shouldn’t be in the PK. His “reads” both offensively and defensively are poor, IMO.

a whole staff of experienced NHL coaches has seen fit to put his line (regardless of his linemates) against the other team's top forwards every night this season. he's also been one of their most-used penalty kill forwards.

I'm not above people on the internet criticizing coaches (Pascal Vincent belongs in The Hague for the way he coached this team last year) but in this instance I'd venture to say that Evason probably has a better read on Sillinger's defensive abilities if he trusts him in those situations.

 

[GoJackets1]

Sillinger is rarely a notable defensive liability in the way that I notice Fantilli, for example, can be a lot of the time.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[Doggy]

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I don't doubt people are asking. That's an easy guess. It's trying to point at specific teams that I find less than credible.

yeah i just posted some names in the other thread from the three teams linked to him that i'd be interested in – minnesota seems to line up well as a trade partner (buium, wallstedt, yurov, rossi) but i don't see as much immediate opportunity for jiricek there with faber and spurgeon already on the right side.

beyond the teams linked so far (minnesota, nashville, philly, edmonton) some names i think would make sense are:

• "pissing off other fans by bringing them up, but realistic to ask" tier
  • guhle - mtl
  • eklund - sjs
  • mctavish - ana
• "highly-drafted young player in a rut" tier
  • wright - sea
  • quinn - buf
  • korchinski - chi
• "a bit older + a lot more expensive" tier
  • cozens - buf
  • byram - buf
  • batherson - ott
• "clear step down + not in the NHL yet" tier
  • lekkerimaki - van
  • snuggerud - buf
  • dvorsky - stl
  • musty - sjs
  • willander - van
• "funniest possible outcome" tier
  • gauthier - ana

zero interest in the swath of names from big-market fans who think smaller markets are their farm teams (savoie, hoglander, cowan, literally anything montreal offers but especially dach)

if we expand it beyond "one-for-one" i wouldn't mind something around jiricek to dallas for bourque + bichel + a pick.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

We got any interest in any rangers ?

 

[cbjthrowaway]

We got any interest in any rangers ?

two guys with NTCs who would probably be opposed but i'd be open to a severson-trouba swap. severson's a better player but the jackets would get out of the back end of that deal + have trouba as a potential retain-and-flip asset at the draft or next year's TDL.

either way, if they're moving trouba that's a perfect opportunity for us to weaponize cap. no way the rangers will want to retain anything, but we could absolutely step in and take the 50% hit. we don't need the cap space next year anyway.

would love something like:

• NYR sends trouba + a 1st to CBJ for harris
• CBJ retains 50% on trouba, flips him to detroit for compher + a pick

essentially helping two teams clear cap, adding draft capital + a roster forward.

 

[ViD]

two guys with NTCs who would probably be opposed but i'd be open to a severson-trouba swap. severson's a better player but the jackets would get out of the back end of that deal + have trouba as a potential retain-and-flip asset at the draft or next year's TDL.

either way, if they're moving trouba that's a perfect opportunity for us to weaponize cap. no way the rangers will want to retain anything, but we could absolutely step in and take the 50% hit. we don't need the cap space next year anyway.

would love something like:

• NYR sends trouba + a 1st to CBJ for harris
• CBJ retains 50% on trouba, flips him to detroit for compher + a pick

essentially helping two teams clear cap, adding draft capital + a roster forward.

What makes you think Detroit wants Trouba ?

 

[cbjthrowaway]

What makes you think Detroit wants Trouba ?

1. veteran presence + leader
2. can take on some of the tough assignments that seider typically eats
3. is from the area (i.e. wouldn't be on his NTC)
4. compher in particular doesn't seem to be working, and is more expensive (with way more term) than a 50% retained trouba would be

seems like a good fit to me.

 

[Viqsi]

1. veteran presence + leader
2. can take on some of the tough assignments that seider typically eats
3. is from the area (i.e. wouldn't be on his NTC)
4. compher in particular doesn't seem to be working, and is more expensive (with way more term) than a 50% retained trouba would be

seems like a good fit to me.

Rangers fans have been harassing Wings fans on that same general theory for a couple years now, so that's going to be an immensely difficult sale.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Rangers fans have been harassing Wings fans on that same general theory for a couple years now, so that's going to be an immensely difficult sale.

my counterpoint to this is that i have simply not read those comments and like a tiny baby playing peek-a-boo for the first time, they may as well not exist to me

i do wonder if the idea of getting him retained down to 50% + getting out of compher's deal in the same trade would change their feelings.