Cowumbus
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What is age / GP cutoff?
What is the cutoff for prospects? For example, Marchenko is listed as a top prospect, but Quinn, Peterka, Power, Cozens are younger than him for Buffalo. We’re they counted in the Sabers ranking?
Prospect Info: CBJ Prospect Thread XI
- Thread starter CBJWerenski8
- Start date
Cowumbus
Registered User
Scott Wheeler on Jicieck:
Jiricek has some extremely desirable attributes, marked by a booming point shot (it’s a bomb, and he does a really good job keeping it on target and a couple of feet off the ice), a strong, athletic 6-foot-3 frame, and a commanding on-ice presence. He’s a staunch man-to-man in-zone defender, he moves his feet well for his size (though I do worry about his stilted backwards skating/pivots and how often he gets caught flatfooted), and thrives in transition with his ability to both close out on gaps (less so than maintain them) with his length and aggression and lead a ton of rushes as an eager puck transporter (he’s a much better skater going forward).
Offensively, he’s also a capable handler and distributor whose point shot is complemented by an aggressive approach. There are also some subtleties to his game (first passes that are almost never off-target, a sneaky-silky first touch, etc.). But his modus operandi is that he’s a confident, active, engaged three-zone player who has almost all of the tools you look for in a top defender.
When his timing is on and he’s stepping up early to take the ice in the neutral zone, he can really dominate a game on both sides of the puck. He can be a little overzealous at times (offensively and defensively), but that eagerness to make something happen also defines his game and he’s a lot to handle when he builds a head of steam through his tall crossovers and starts circling the offensive game. He wants to dictate and influence the game on his terms, rather than wait for it to come to him (which can also come with waiting a little too long to make his decisions at the time, but is more often apparent in quick, aggressive choices). As he continues to smooth out and polish his game, it’s hard to imagine he doesn’t become, at the very least, an impactful top-four guy. And if he hits the right notes along his development path, his ceiling could be significantly higher than that.
The bolded portion was/is my main concern when he was drafted.
Jiricek has some extremely desirable attributes, marked by a booming point shot (it’s a bomb, and he does a really good job keeping it on target and a couple of feet off the ice), a strong, athletic 6-foot-3 frame, and a commanding on-ice presence. He’s a staunch man-to-man in-zone defender, he moves his feet well for his size (though I do worry about his stilted backwards skating/pivots and how often he gets caught flatfooted), and thrives in transition with his ability to both close out on gaps (less so than maintain them) with his length and aggression and lead a ton of rushes as an eager puck transporter (he’s a much better skater going forward).
Offensively, he’s also a capable handler and distributor whose point shot is complemented by an aggressive approach. There are also some subtleties to his game (first passes that are almost never off-target, a sneaky-silky first touch, etc.). But his modus operandi is that he’s a confident, active, engaged three-zone player who has almost all of the tools you look for in a top defender.
When his timing is on and he’s stepping up early to take the ice in the neutral zone, he can really dominate a game on both sides of the puck. He can be a little overzealous at times (offensively and defensively), but that eagerness to make something happen also defines his game and he’s a lot to handle when he builds a head of steam through his tall crossovers and starts circling the offensive game. He wants to dictate and influence the game on his terms, rather than wait for it to come to him (which can also come with waiting a little too long to make his decisions at the time, but is more often apparent in quick, aggressive choices). As he continues to smooth out and polish his game, it’s hard to imagine he doesn’t become, at the very least, an impactful top-four guy. And if he hits the right notes along his development path, his ceiling could be significantly higher than that.
The bolded portion was/is my main concern when he was drafted.
CBJWerenski8
Rest in Peace Johnny
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How the hell is Liam Foudy over Tarasov after the season he has had
Cowumbus
Registered User
Marchenko:
This season has kind of gone how you’d hope it would for Marchenko. After three years as a top young player in the KHL, he began in the AHL, registered points in his first five games and immediately became one of the Monsters’ best players, earned the call-up to the big club (even ignoring the Blue Jackets’ injuries) and has continued to play his game while building the league’s most unique stat sheet with his 13 goals to zero assists ratio through 28 games.
Marchenko’s a strong and sturdy winger who plays the game with skill characteristic of a smaller player, with A-grade hands and touch with the puck which helps him fool goalies and defenders one-on-one or feather a shot into a specific location in the net from a tough angle when there isn’t an opportunity to blow the puck past a goalie (which he can also do). I’d like to see him leverage his size a little more but he’s never going to be a mean, imposing player and he has learned to use his length effectively in other ways, including through his shot when he really needs to turn on a puck and use his forward momentum to lean into a shot from an off-balance stance. He’s good in the home plate area and off the flanks, and he has shown he can play at NHL pace. I don’t think he’s going to be a star, but this is the start of a career as a good NHL player (he projects to be that $5-million guy every team wants as a scoring complement with pro size to the really expensive tickets).
Dumais:
One of my favourite prospects in the sport and the most productive player in major junior hockey not named Connor Bedard over the course of the last two seasons, I will be more surprised if Dumais doesn’t make it as a playmaking top-nine winger at this point than I will if he does. That, in and of itself, is no small thing to be saying about a 5-foot-9, 18-year-old third-round pick. But that’s what he’s owed because of one simple fact: Players who’ve produced like he has historically almost never miss. He should win QMJHL MVP. He should be one of the top-six right wings for Canada at next year’s world juniors. I’m confident he’s going to produce in the AHL like he did in his first Traverse City Prospects Tournament (and everywhere else). And then he’s going to figure it out at NHL (NHL News - National Hockey League Scores, Schedule, Standings, Stats, and Rumors - The Athletic) pace, despite questions about his size and skating, because he’s too good and too intelligent on the ice not to. Dumais’ extensions through his stride need some cleaning up (they can look stunted and drag at the toe caps), but he has become a tremendously hardworking player with a wide-ranging offensive game that allows him to create offence in a variety of ways. He’ll beat you with a quick give-and-go on one shift, a standstill pass or shot on the next, a dance to the high slot on the next, and quick hands and determination around the net on the next. He brings it every night. He tracks back and makes hustle plays. His shot is pinpoint accurate and gets off of his blade effortlessly in catch-and-release sequences. He’s really good along the wall and the back check on retrievals and steals. Though he’s not physical, he hunts pucks without fear and willingly engages in puck battles. He’s got A-level vision, hands, and anticipation. He’s crafty as anything. He routinely elevates his linemates and does things himself (as evidenced by the uptick in their production and the gap that he still maintains well above and beyond his peers). I’m willing to stick my neck out for him to become a top-six NHL winger if the Blue Jackets handle his development appropriately (which I’m confident they will).
Tier rankings:
Jiricek
Mateychuk
Dumais
Marchenko
Ceulemans
Svozil
Luca
Voronkov
FOUDY (wtf mate)
Tarasov
Malatesta
Ivanov
Knazko
Berni
Richard
This season has kind of gone how you’d hope it would for Marchenko. After three years as a top young player in the KHL, he began in the AHL, registered points in his first five games and immediately became one of the Monsters’ best players, earned the call-up to the big club (even ignoring the Blue Jackets’ injuries) and has continued to play his game while building the league’s most unique stat sheet with his 13 goals to zero assists ratio through 28 games.
Marchenko’s a strong and sturdy winger who plays the game with skill characteristic of a smaller player, with A-grade hands and touch with the puck which helps him fool goalies and defenders one-on-one or feather a shot into a specific location in the net from a tough angle when there isn’t an opportunity to blow the puck past a goalie (which he can also do). I’d like to see him leverage his size a little more but he’s never going to be a mean, imposing player and he has learned to use his length effectively in other ways, including through his shot when he really needs to turn on a puck and use his forward momentum to lean into a shot from an off-balance stance. He’s good in the home plate area and off the flanks, and he has shown he can play at NHL pace. I don’t think he’s going to be a star, but this is the start of a career as a good NHL player (he projects to be that $5-million guy every team wants as a scoring complement with pro size to the really expensive tickets).
Dumais:
One of my favourite prospects in the sport and the most productive player in major junior hockey not named Connor Bedard over the course of the last two seasons, I will be more surprised if Dumais doesn’t make it as a playmaking top-nine winger at this point than I will if he does. That, in and of itself, is no small thing to be saying about a 5-foot-9, 18-year-old third-round pick. But that’s what he’s owed because of one simple fact: Players who’ve produced like he has historically almost never miss. He should win QMJHL MVP. He should be one of the top-six right wings for Canada at next year’s world juniors. I’m confident he’s going to produce in the AHL like he did in his first Traverse City Prospects Tournament (and everywhere else). And then he’s going to figure it out at NHL (NHL News - National Hockey League Scores, Schedule, Standings, Stats, and Rumors - The Athletic) pace, despite questions about his size and skating, because he’s too good and too intelligent on the ice not to. Dumais’ extensions through his stride need some cleaning up (they can look stunted and drag at the toe caps), but he has become a tremendously hardworking player with a wide-ranging offensive game that allows him to create offence in a variety of ways. He’ll beat you with a quick give-and-go on one shift, a standstill pass or shot on the next, a dance to the high slot on the next, and quick hands and determination around the net on the next. He brings it every night. He tracks back and makes hustle plays. His shot is pinpoint accurate and gets off of his blade effortlessly in catch-and-release sequences. He’s really good along the wall and the back check on retrievals and steals. Though he’s not physical, he hunts pucks without fear and willingly engages in puck battles. He’s got A-level vision, hands, and anticipation. He’s crafty as anything. He routinely elevates his linemates and does things himself (as evidenced by the uptick in their production and the gap that he still maintains well above and beyond his peers). I’m willing to stick my neck out for him to become a top-six NHL winger if the Blue Jackets handle his development appropriately (which I’m confident they will).
Not sure.
Tier rankings:
Jiricek
Mateychuk
Dumais
Marchenko
Ceulemans
Svozil
Luca
Voronkov
FOUDY (wtf mate)
Tarasov
Malatesta
Ivanov
Knazko
Berni
Richard
Doggy
Registered User
- Oct 11, 2011
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Just a comment: was listening to the most recent TA podcast where they interviewed Pronman talking about the 2023 draft (you don't have to be a subscriber to enjoy their excellent hockey podcasts). Pronman was specifically answering a question about Zach Benson (who is 5'9") and why he has him ranked #12 while Bob MacKenzie has him ranked much higher at #6. One of Pronman's comments was relatable to Jordan Dumais and I thought worth sharing.
'There are just eight wingers in the NHL right now that are 5'9" or smaller and averaging >0.5 PPG.'
Now Pronman's comment was made specifically about risking a high first round pick on a guy who doesn't have that measurable and certainly if a kid has insane other attributes like Bedard then size can be overcome. And Dumais was a 3rd round pick so he is a low risk pick but its rare for a kid his size with his lack of even above average skating to thrive in the NHL. Just thought it was a worthwhile statistic.
'There are just eight wingers in the NHL right now that are 5'9" or smaller and averaging >0.5 PPG.'
Now Pronman's comment was made specifically about risking a high first round pick on a guy who doesn't have that measurable and certainly if a kid has insane other attributes like Bedard then size can be overcome. And Dumais was a 3rd round pick so he is a low risk pick but its rare for a kid his size with his lack of even above average skating to thrive in the NHL. Just thought it was a worthwhile statistic.
I3LI3
Registered User
yeah.. foudy above tarasov is a crime.
berni being as low as he is, is an absolute crime too. yikes
berni being as low as he is, is an absolute crime too. yikes
here's wheeler's criteria for considering a prospect on these lists.
last year he included sillinger who had spent the whole year in the NHL. he makes judgement calls sometimes.
prospect writers often struggle to evaluate goalies – wheeler does say he think tarasov is a future #2 but that the jackets are higher on him.
foudy imo can be a good fourth line player / penalty kill guy. i don't think it's unreasonable to say that's similarly valuable to a #2 goalie. i think tarasov has a way higher ceiling than that, but it's not worth getting bent out of shape over.
berni wasn't much of a prospect coming into this year, seems like one of those players who the player dev staff has done a really nice job with. not sure how much upside he has beyond a third pairing guy so i think the ranking with him is pretty fair, but there's plenty of value in turning a late-round pick into a solid depth defenseman.
I think some of Wheeler's method is limited by how much time the journalistic/editorial process takes. A lot of the work on this was probably done more than a month ago, with rough lists for every team probably already done before the series started being published, and it wasn't necessarily clear to a National guy if Marchenko was up for good but it was clear those recently graduated Buffalo guys were staying up because they'd already been up all year (just like Sillinger and Johnson for us).
I deeply question Foudy's inclusion, and how high he's listed, but perhaps his perception outside Jackets circles is much higher. I know he's frequently the subject of Avalanche armchair GM trades.
I deeply question Foudy's inclusion, and how high he's listed, but perhaps his perception outside Jackets circles is much higher. I know he's frequently the subject of Avalanche armchair GM trades.
Doggy
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Great, trade him now for whatever we can get!
Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
1) As squash says, how much time has Pronman personally invested in scouting? If it’s a lot, then yeah there’s a lag for sure. If he’s more timely, then he’s probably using other scouting and then doing his own ranking.
2) I love how sports media and sports media consumers look at a thing that’s a list or selection and immediately calling it wrong. From Halls of Fame to March Madness to college football to top 10s… either it was done by consensus and therefore almost certainly carries more weight than a single opinion or it’s just another single opinion and not worth getting all worked up over.
2) I love how sports media and sports media consumers look at a thing that’s a list or selection and immediately calling it wrong. From Halls of Fame to March Madness to college football to top 10s… either it was done by consensus and therefore almost certainly carries more weight than a single opinion or it’s just another single opinion and not worth getting all worked up over.
he has some solid tools but maybe isn't in the best environment to develop. i don't mean that generally speaking, but instead it's more specific to his role/skillset.
i think he could be a sneaky deadline target. super low-cost young guy with a ton of speed and years of team control? even if the offensive game isn't there, as a bottom six energy guy on a good team he could be pretty nice.
guys like that are kind of wasted on bad teams. the jackets are always chasing play, whereas a burner like foudy is valuable on a team that can get a lead, then sit back and counter-attack. his speed can be used in situations like that to create odd man rushes.
Hadn't thought about it specifically like that, but I agree. He's a complementary player for an already established team, with one luxury skill (his skating). Colorado's fourth line might in fact be the ideal spot for him.
i think his speed also makes him a good candidate to play higher in the lineup on a really good team where they have guys who can carry the puck and create chances.
for example, if they played him with mackinnon and rantanen, he wouldn't really need to touch the puck much, but his speed would be used to open up space/passing lanes on the rush, and he could use his speed to backcheck/get the puck back to create odd-man rushes. also applies to robinson.
that's not to say that he has enough skill or scoring ability to do that permanently, but during a playoff run? there's precedent for it (pittsburgh using brian gibbons on crosby's line, for example).
so there's versatility beyond 'fourth line speed guy' with him (and robinson) that imo make them more valuable in the trade market than they are to this jackets team.
Doggy
Registered User
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OK, so Foudy just turned 23. Still young-ish...I get it. But at what point do you (not me, because I am already there) realize he's a classic 'tweener' (or AAAA guy). He's like Zach Dalpe, minus the sixteen NHL goals. If he wants it he could have a very fine AHL career and make really good money for a kid who gets whatever kind of an education Canadian Juniors supposedly gives these kids. Maybe go play Canadian College hockey and get a college degree before he ages out of that chance.
I am not trying to diss the kid but FACT: not every 1st rounder has an NHL career. And arguably he was a borderline 1st round talent to begin with.
I am not trying to diss the kid but FACT: not every 1st rounder has an NHL career. And arguably he was a borderline 1st round talent to begin with.
I think a positive view on Foudy was more warranted before this year. He looks to have gotten worse and his results are terrible. I don't think the current version is an NHL player in any system.
His skating is overrated. He has great top speed but poor agility and endurance.
Fire him now.
He might not be, but we used to say the same thing about Milano and Duclair. And both have carved themselves their own little role in the NHL.
Some guys just take longer to find their groove.
Doggy
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Comparing what each player had accomplished in the NHL by the time they were 23...not sure Foudy could even carry Milano's or Duclair's skates from the parking lot to the dressing room. Both looked like all stars compared to him.
I think the only reason Foudy is in Columbus is because he would have to pass through waivers and Jarmo for some reason is either scared to lose him for nothing or doesn't want to admit he way over-drafted the kid. I don't think anyone is stealing Foudy at this point so go ahead and put him on waivers and send him down (I assume you cannot claim another team's waiver just to send them down to the minors) and bring up TFW and see what he's got...he cannot be worse and already has infinitely more NHL goals in just ten games played.
i think the ship has likely sailed on foudy being a top six guy at the nhl level.
i wouldn't rule out foudy being a solid bottom-six guy. he has speed, athleticism and size. he's still young. he's missed a lot of development time with injuries. i don't think he's a finished product yet.
do i think it'll happen with columbus? no.
Foudy also was plauged with injuries and then spent an entire season on the taxi squad. He hasn't had the much needed development time in the AHL. I think he'll make it in a depth role somewhere.
Foudy is a bust, plain and simple, the only reason he’s in the NHL in injuries.
Guys like Milano or Duclair who we got rid of are twice the players Foudy is.
Guys like Milano or Duclair who we got rid of are twice the players Foudy is.
Problem is, he’s not even as effective as Eric Robinson who also fits this description
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