Confirmed Trade: [CAR/PIT] Jake Guentzel (25% retained), Ty Smith for Michael Bunting, Ville Koivunen, Vasili Ponomarev, Cruz Lucius, 2024 cond. 1st, 2024 cond. 5th

[UrbanImpact]

Lol your loser team lost out on both Guentzel and now Toffoli. Hope you like Jason Zucker!

Saying Henrique brought back more than Guentzel just shows your opinion isn't worth anything.

Lol this is like your 100th post on the thread trying to convince everyone that this is a decent trade, just stop bro we aint buying it.

You wanted 2x 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick and prospects for Guentzel now youre moonwalking faster than Michael Jackson saying that a cap dump and magic bean low impact prospects are a great return. They didnt even get anyone in the top 5 of Carolina's pool.

The funny part is how Pagnotta absoloutely trolled the Pens fanbase when he said Morrow was coming back, thats just harsh.

LOL.

I knew the Canucks werent going to offer Lekky , Willander, or Hogz, i figured they would at least do Podz ,1st and 3rd but apparently even that was an overpayment.

Its alright man, we all do it, we all over-hype and over-value our rental free agents.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Lol this is like your 100th post on the thread trying to convince everyone that this is a decent trade, just stop bro we aint buying it.

You wanted 2x 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick and prospects for Guentzel now youre moonwalking faster than Michael Jackson saying that a cap dump and magic bean low impact prospects are a great return. They didnt even get anyone in the top 5 of Carolina's pool.

The funny part is how Pagnotta absoloutely trolled the Pens fanbase when he said Morrow was coming back, thats just harsh.

LOL.

I knew the Canucks werent going to offer Lekky , Willander, or Hogz, i figured they would at least do Podz ,1st and 3rd but apparently even that was an overpayment.

Its alright man, we all do it, we all over-hype and over-value our rental free agents.

If you think Podkolzin, a 1st and 3rd is more than what the Canes gave up here, you're absolutely clueless and just talking out of your ass.

Canes fans are saying this is a good return for the Penguins. I don't particularly give a damn what a Vancouver fan mad that the Penguins didn't take their scraps for Guentzel thinks about it.

I also like how this is such a terrible trade according to Canucks fans coming into this thread, yet their team was practically begging Pittsburgh to send Guentzel to Vancouver and they couldn't beat this offer. What does that say about your prospect pool that this "terrible trade" was better than what you offered?

 

[UrbanImpact]

If you think Podkolzin, a 1st and 3rd is more than what the Canes gave up here, you're absolutely clueless and just talking out of your ass.

Canes fans are saying this is a good return for the Penguins. I don't particularly give a damn what a Vancouver fan mad that the Penguins didn't take their scraps for Guentzel thinks about it.

I also like how this is such a terrible trade according to Canucks fans coming into this thread, yet their team was practically begging Pittsburgh to send Guentzel to Vancouver and they couldn't beat this offer.

What does that say about your prospect pool that this "terrible trade" was better than what you offered?

LOL the insiders had an absolute laugh at the Pens eh..

It went from 6 teams interested, to multiple 1st round picks, to Brendan Ohtman, To Kakko, to Michael Bunting.

Man thats just cruel.

Fire Dubas!

 

[Empoleon8771]

Why do you keep bringing up Mcdavid in a thread about Guentzel? i dont get the obsession with the Canucks.

We're discussing JG here and the lackluster return.

No we're not. I'm discussing the trade. You're showing you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

You said that:

-Bunting was the main piece of the trade
-Podkolzin, a 1st and 3rd was better than what the Canes gave up
-Henrique was traded for more than what the Canes paid

You obviously don't have a clue with what you're talking about. You're not "discussing" anything.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Honestly these prospects are all fine. I have nothing against any of them. They may have good NHL careers. I think realistically though, many would say they probably aren't Top 100 drafted prospects, or fringe at best, at the moment. Really these are the kind of prospects that teams should have already in their system in the ordinary course of making draft selections and watching players develop. And when a new wave of first round picks are made in a few months (of which Pittsburgh likely won't have any, or at best a 31st/32nd overall pick), that'll push them down further.

So they're basically recouping where you'd expect them to be in terms of adding prospects to the pool, but that Pittsburgh isn't from all the recent years of trading picks (mind you, less of a big deal when they were winning Cups, but the earliest any of these players were picked was 2020, a year the Penguins lost in the Play-Ins). I don't really see the Penguins as some cheap graduated prospect depth away from anything at the moment to be honest.

This just feels very "gotta do right by Crosby, gotta do right by Crosby" as far as getting prospects that may be able to come in and give cheap depth and try to salvage something as far as getting into the postseason for as long as Crosby (turns 37 in the offseason) is present and productive.... when given where the Penguins are in their cycle, I'd have much preferred them to be adding draft capital than drafted 2002-2004 birth prospects. I think amongst the prospects you're probably looking for a positive outcome where by the time you get to the post-Crosby years, these are the kind of players you can flip for draft capital at that point. I'd rather just have the draft capital right now for Guentzel, who was your best trade asset, and build a more timeline appropriate prospect foundation for when you do hit your eventual tank years.

Anyways, that's my 300-foot overview of the situation from their perspective, not getting into the whole "good value, expected value, terrible value" hand-wringing about what a rental is worth.

 

[UrbanImpact]

Your team missed out on both Guentzel and Toffoli because your team's assets suck. Have fun losing to McDavid!

Canes fans are saying the prospects they gave up for Guentzel are good and Penguins fans should be satisfied with the return. I don't particularly give a damn what Canucks fans have to say on the matter. Go have fun trading for Jason Zucker.

Youve litterally replied to every Canuck fan so i dont think its accurate when you say you dont give a damn.

also id love to have Zucker on the team, lol do you think thats a dis? We currently have Mikhayev in our top 6 and he hasnt scored in 30+ straight games. Id take Zucker in a heartbeat.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I'll be gentle here

How many stars play for one team their entire career unless ended early by injury?

Gretzky
Ronny Franchise
Patrick Roy
...
...
...

There's a few whom touch this pedestal. Stay away from our Captain....

 

[newsportsfan123]

How does the Finnish elite league compare to Swedens?

I don't know if anyone answered this, but the SHL is probably the 2nd best league in the world overtaking the KHL as of recently. It is still incredibly hard for players to score at a point per game pace in the SHL. Only two players are a point per game throughout the whole league. Liiga is probably around the 4th-6th best league in the world.

 

[Ryder71]

I don't know if anyone answered this, but the SHL is probably the 2nd best league in the world overtaking the KHL as of recently. It is still incredibly hard for players to score at a point per game pace in the SHL. Only two players are a point per game throughout the whole league. Liiga is probably around the 4th-6th best league in the world.

Would Liiga be AHL level or thereabouts?

 

[newsportsfan123]

Would Liiga be AHL level or thereabouts?

I know a lot of people have it ranked around the AHL, some people have them above the AHL.

 

[Ryder71]

I know a lot of people have it ranked around the AHL, some people have them above the AHL.

I'll go with the fine individuals who rank it above the AHL then. Makes it easier to cope with. And maybe they're right.

 

[TheAngryHank]

LMAO! Im still in shock about this trade. I was told Geuntzel is the best rental made availablein the last 50 years.

The return is soo trash, how is Dubas still allowed to run a franchise. I feel bad for how Crosby's sunset years are being absolutely wasted.

A player dump in Bunting, a 2nd round pick and some magic bean mid level prospects for one of the best wingers in NHL.

HAAHAHA Adam Henrique fetched more than Guentzel, let that sink in.

At least they only retained 25% or the optics would be bad.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I don't know if anyone answered this, but the SHL is probably the 2nd best league in the world overtaking the KHL as of recently.

The KHL is a much better League, imo. The lack of a transfer agreement, and the KHL's ability to offer much higher salaries that are competitive with NHL 4th line salaries, keeps it the 2nd best League in the world.

My league power ranking is something like

NHL

monumental gap

KHL
AHL

slight gap

SHL

from there, I'd say Liiga is pretty comparable to NLA. The NLA is able to attract really high quality imports, which Liiga can't really do, but the domestic player pool isn't very good. The Finnish player pool isn't super huge because it's a smaller country, so the domestics aren't incredible by any means and the transfer agreement sees the good ones come over to the NHL/AHL as soon as they are able, and they also lose a good amount of players to Sweden and Switzerland. An NLA team just won Champions Hockey League (first time that has happened) and a couple of their top players are Finns with NHL experience (Sami Vatanen and Teemu Hartkinen)

The collapse of Jokerit (it's a messy situation, they were a KHL team and a Russian owned their arena, it's been vacant since the invasion) has a pretty detrimental effect on local Finnish hockey.

 

[Ryder71]

Honestly these prospects are all fine. I have nothing against any of them. They may have good NHL careers. I think realistically though, many would say they probably aren't Top 100 drafted prospects, or fringe at best, at the moment. Really these are the kind of prospects that teams should have already in their system in the ordinary course of making draft selections and watching players develop. And when a new wave of first round picks are made in a few months (of which Pittsburgh likely won't have any, or at best a 31st/32nd overall pick), that'll push them down further.

So they're basically recouping where you'd expect them to be in terms of adding prospects to the pool, but that Pittsburgh isn't from all the recent years of trading picks (mind you, less of a big deal when they were winning Cups, but the earliest any of these players were picked was 2020, a year the Penguins lost in the Play-Ins). I don't really see the Penguins as some cheap graduated prospect depth away from anything at the moment to be honest.

This just feels very "gotta do right by Crosby, gotta do right by Crosby" as far as getting prospects that may be able to come in and give cheap depth and try to salvage something as far as getting into the postseason for as long as Crosby (turns 37 in the offseason) is present and productive.... when given where the Penguins are in their cycle, I'd have much preferred them to be adding draft capital than drafted 2002-2004 birth prospects. I think amongst the prospects you're probably looking for a positive outcome where by the time you get to the post-Crosby years, these are the kind of players you can flip for draft capital at that point. I'd rather just have the draft capital right now for Guentzel, who was your best trade asset, and build a more timeline appropriate prospect foundation for when you do hit your eventual tank years.

Anyways, that's my 300-foot overview of the situation from their perspective, not getting into the whole "good value, expected value, terrible value" hand-wringing about what a rental is worth.

Koivunen is fairly highly regarded. There's conflicting reports as to where he is, but Button ranked him 34th

 

[WarriorofTime]

Koivunen is fairly highly regarded. There's conflicting reports as to where he is, but Button ranked him 34th

Ah ok, didn't realize Button had him so highly regarded. That's surprising to me, but Button does march to the beat of his own drum (Simon Edvinsson only 25th for instance really jumps out as weird, 6th overall pick, AHL All Star and certainly good enough to play in NHL right now, but being allowed to marinate a bit).

Obviously time will tell on him, these other two, and well every other prospect.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Ah ok, didn't realize Button had him so highly regarded. That's surprising to me, but Button does march to the beat of his own drum (Simon Edvinsson only 25th for instance really jumps out as weird, 6th overall pick, AHL All Star and certainly good enough to play in NHL right now, but being allowed to marinate a bit).

Obviously time will tell on him, these other two, and well every other prospect.

I have read his skating is a tall task to transfer over to the NHL standards, but if he has it between the ears who knows.

 

[Syrinx]

So they're basically recouping where you'd expect them to be in terms of adding prospects to the pool,

It's still a lot better than where we were yesterday.

 

[td_ice]

Honestly these prospects are all fine. I have nothing against any of them. They may have good NHL careers. I think realistically though, many would say they probably aren't Top 100 drafted prospects, or fringe at best, at the moment. Really these are the kind of prospects that teams should have already in their system in the ordinary course of making draft selections and watching players develop. And when a new wave of first round picks are made in a few months (of which Pittsburgh likely won't have any, or at best a 31st/32nd overall pick), that'll push them down further.

So they're basically recouping where you'd expect them to be in terms of adding prospects to the pool, but that Pittsburgh isn't from all the recent years of trading picks (mind you, less of a big deal when they were winning Cups, but the earliest any of these players were picked was 2020, a year the Penguins lost in the Play-Ins). I don't really see the Penguins as some cheap graduated prospect depth away from anything at the moment to be honest.

This just feels very "gotta do right by Crosby, gotta do right by Crosby" as far as getting prospects that may be able to come in and give cheap depth and try to salvage something as far as getting into the postseason for as long as Crosby (turns 37 in the offseason) is present and productive.... when given where the Penguins are in their cycle, I'd have much preferred them to be adding draft capital than drafted 2002-2004 birth prospects. I think amongst the prospects you're probably looking for a positive outcome where by the time you get to the post-Crosby years, these are the kind of players you can flip for draft capital at that point. I'd rather just have the draft capital right now for Guentzel, who was your best trade asset, and build a more timeline appropriate prospect foundation for when you do hit your eventual tank years.

Anyways, that's my 300-foot overview of the situation from their perspective, not getting into the whole "good value, expected value, terrible value" hand-wringing about what a rental is worth.

Wow, extremely well thought out and articulated post.

You know how people say, "I feel dumber for having read that", I definitely feel "smarter" (more informed) having read that.


Good stuff.

 

[LPHabsFan]

It's interesting seeing Penguins fans on the other end of the table for the first time.

Anywho.... The most recent comparable trade was Meier from last year, which was a 1st, a 2nd that could still become a 1st, 7th, and a bunch of mid players/prospects.

UFA to be players don't get top end prospects/young players at the trade deadline. Sometimes they will get that during the summer when there's a full year. Even if you think he "could" be signed, it's unlikely the Penguins allow the team to negotiate before making the deal to increase the price.

said this on Monday.......

 

[mattihp]

The KHL is a much better League, imo. The lack of a transfer agreement, and the KHL's ability to offer much higher salaries that are competitive with NHL 4th line salaries, keeps it the 2nd best League in the world.

My league power ranking is something like

NHL

monumental gap

KHL
AHL

slight gap

SHL

from there, I'd say Liiga is pretty comparable to NLA. The NLA is able to attract really high quality imports, which Liiga can't really do, but the domestic player pool isn't very good. The Finnish player pool isn't super huge because it's a smaller country, so the domestics aren't incredible by any means and the transfer agreement sees the good ones come over to the NHL/AHL as soon as they are able, and they also lose a good amount of players to Sweden and Switzerland. An NLA team just won Champions Hockey League (first time that has happened) and a couple of their top players are Finns with NHL experience (Sami Vatanen and Teemu Hartkinen)

The collapse of Jokerit (it's a messy situation, they were a KHL team and a Russian owned their arena, it's been vacant since the invasion) has a pretty detrimental effect on local Finnish hockey.

The KHL and AHL better than the SHL does not work for anyone who compares stats or have watched the leagues. The KHL has some players now who wouldn't be ECHL stars and lost lots of their best players. The AHL is a developmental league where NHL teams play guys who are just not there and won't be for a while.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The KHL and AHL better than the SHL does not work for anyone who compares stats or have watched the leagues. The KHL has some players now who wouldn't be ECHL stars and lost lots of their best players. The AHL is a developmental league where NHL teams play guys who are just not there and won't be for a while.

The KHL North American imports are much better than the SHL ones. It's not particularly close if you look across the board. Not sure what you mean, "NHLe" (SUPER flawed by the way), still projects KHL points out higher than SHL ones.

I'm not going to poke around an entire leagues for you to handwring about who is "not ECHL stars" level, but (i) better salaries, (ii) no transfer agreement, keeping Russian players there longer and more likely to play their primes there if the best they can get from NHL is fringe/depth roles, keeps KHL much higher than SHL.

A common myth is that everyone that left the KHL post-Ukraine invasion just simply moved over to the SHL. The reality is that the players scattered quite a bit, even Swedes themselves didn't all lockstep go into the SHL. This narrows the gap a bit between KHL and the others but not to the commonly propagated beliefs here.

 

[Turin]

Cap dump, mid 2nd, and three C level prospects. Yikes

Ponomorev and Koivunen are not C level prospects and Bunting isn’t just a cap dump.

 

[SEALBound]

The KHL is a much better League, imo. The lack of a transfer agreement, and the KHL's ability to offer much higher salaries that are competitive with NHL 4th line salaries, keeps it the 2nd best League in the world.

My league power ranking is something like

NHL

monumental gap

KHL
AHL

slight gap

SHL

from there, I'd say Liiga is pretty comparable to NLA. The NLA is able to attract really high quality imports, which Liiga can't really do, but the domestic player pool isn't very good. The Finnish player pool isn't super huge because it's a smaller country, so the domestics aren't incredible by any means and the transfer agreement sees the good ones come over to the NHL/AHL as soon as they are able, and they also lose a good amount of players to Sweden and Switzerland. An NLA team just won Champions Hockey League (first time that has happened) and a couple of their top players are Finns with NHL experience (Sami Vatanen and Teemu Hartkinen)

The collapse of Jokerit (it's a messy situation, they were a KHL team and a Russian owned their arena, it's been vacant since the invasion) has a pretty detrimental effect on local Finnish hockey.

It might depend a bit on what you are trying to compare. If it's league to league, I think you're correct. But if the goal is use each league as a measure of how a prospect might perform in the NHL, then I don't think it's a good list. I think the AHL would be firmly above the KHL if you are looking at that. Plenty of low level pluggers go from the NHL to the KHL and put up big numbers.

If Prospect A was PPG in the AHL and Prospect B was PPG in the KHL (with all other things being equal), I would take the PPG AHL player every time.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Why are Vancouver fans so triggered by this?

 

[WarriorofTime]

It might depend a bit on what you are trying to compare. If it's league to league, I think you're correct. But if the goal is use each league as a measure of how a prospect might perform in the NHL, then I don't think it's a good list. I think the AHL would be firmly above the KHL if you are looking at that. Plenty of low level pluggers go from the NHL to the KHL and put up big numbers.

If Prospect A was PPG in the AHL and Prospect B was PPG in the KHL (with all other things being equal), I would take the PPG AHL player every time.

Yeah but low level plugs take AHL vet spots and put up PPG numbers all the time as well. Most of them being under NHL contract and waived/unclaimed already.

Biggest difference is the AHL is a feeder league. So the young players are being groomed for their roles in the NHL. I think a 20-21 year old KHL PPG will get a lot of attention. The KHL team isn't necessarily grooming him for anything, they know he is (probably) going to sign with his NHL team when his contract ends and they won't get any transfer fee for that, so if he is getting 1st line/PP1 opportunity, it's because they think he will help them win right now. So if he is beating out vets and doing that, it's usually pretty impressive.

If he was a high enough draft pick, the NHL club might instruct their affiliate to play him 1st line/PP1 even if some vets are arguably still better at the moment.

Your typical North American forward import that does well in the KHL was likely someone that was a good scoring prospect, put up big numbers in the AHL when they had a 1st line opportunity, got some opportunity in the NHL of varying lengths, but didn't necessarily stick because there are better scorers at the NHL level and they couldn't hold a depth role long enough. They may have contemplated going back for an AHL veteran player spot on a one way deal, but may have decided the KHL paid them more or they didn't want to have to be an old guy mentor type for the latest batch of 20-21 year olds. The veteran player limit rule also likely plays a factor. The KHL team gives them 1st line minutes/PP1 (because all the best scorers in the world are in the NHL) and they produce well in that role.