Confirmed Trade: [CAR/PIT] Jake Guentzel (25% retained), Ty Smith for Michael Bunting, Ville Koivunen, Vasili Ponomarev, Cruz Lucius, 2024 cond. 1st, 2024 cond. 5th

[Honour Over Glory]

The conditional pick is really, really bad on this. Canes have to make the SCF for it to be a 1st, and if they don't, its Philly's 2nd - a team currently sitting in a playoff spot.

If anyone can ever point me to a trade historically where quantity over quality won out, maybe that can make me feel better, because right now it feels like Dubas f***ing blew it

As pointed out above mate, the TDL is still today and more is yet to come. We thought losing Staal was it. Sutter was not great and the Pens didn't look good anymore but little did we know, the pieces we saw Shero get for Staal, later paid off in big ways.

But it all doesn't happen without realizing when to move on from bad coaches. That's the part you should be mad about. Not the return.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Good deal for both teams!

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Thats what I thought! Pens get deeper and younger......and let's face it, the rebuild is coming.

It's a retool. They aren't a flat out rebuild team while Sid is playing. But they can definitely retool a ton.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

From everyhing I read, I feel the read on this deal fully depends on how you perceive Bunting s value. If you think he is a legit top 6 on a reasonable contract worth a 1st on his own, maybe it is a good deal. If you think he has no value (and to me he was not a good fit in CAR which has considerably lowered his value), then CAR paid 3 2nds and a 4th for the best winger on market, that s not really great for the Pens.

Now for me it signals Pens don t want to rebuild, they want to inject youth in the lineup for next year trying to help the older core which is something I respect

Correct, the plan is to try to compete next season. The rebuild isn't happening yet.

The pieces are all nice prospects, but a bunch of nice prospects for Guentzel is definitely underwhelming. I think the people saying “this is basically Raty, Podkolzin, Pettersson and a conditional 1st for Guentzel” are pretty accurate. At that point though, I’m curious why the Canucks felt this was “too much” for them. I’d prefer the Canes prospects but not to a level where Vancouver felt they weren’t even close.

Because other than Lekkerimaki and Willander, the Canucks don't really have any other prospects than the ones you mentioned.

The conditional pick is really, really bad on this. Canes have to make the SCF for it to be a 1st, and if they don't, its Philly's 2nd - a team currently sitting in a playoff spot.

If anyone can ever point me to a trade historically where quantity over quality won out, maybe that can make me feel better, because right now it feels like Dubas f***ing blew it

Erik Karlsson to San Jose.
Taylor Hall to Arizona (as @Empoleon8771 said).
Jeff Skinner to Buffalo.

 

[Identity404]

To all the fans getting worked up about the 1st being conditional: Pono is already NHL ready, and looks to be a 3rd line center with upside. How is that worth less than a late first?

 

[FerrisRox]

Wow Pitt got absolutely bent over here

To be fair, that is Dubas signature move.

 

[FerrisRox]

Yeah. Just a bunch of meh. Quite surprised actually that other teams didn't beat that.

Kyle Dubas has a long track record of being horrible at negotiating, be it free agent contracts or trades.

He tends to think he's the smartest person in the room, but usually ends up out-smarting himself instead. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a healthy market for Jake, but that Dubas totally misread it, set a price tag that cooled off his own market, and then watched those teams use their cap elsewhere after he had priced them out.

By the time he realized what was happening, it was too late and he was rapidly running out of suitors.

Dubas is the worst kind of moron. A moron who thinks he's a genius. This underwhelming trade return was all too predictable.

 

[Peasy]

Correct, the plan is to try to compete next season. The rebuild isn't happening yet.

Because other than Lekkerimaki and Willander, the Canucks don't really have any other prospects than the ones you mentioned.

Erik Karlsson to San Jose.
Taylor Hall to Arizona (as @Empoleon8771 said).

In both those trades, the most valuable piece they got was the draft pick because it ended up being relatively high and they were able to get a good player. This pick is at best 31. Karlsson was 3rd overall and Mercer 18th.

 

[WaW]

Cruz Lucius was a 4th rounder who goes between the late 1st to 2nd round in a way-too-early 2022 redraft...he's been phenomenal at Wisconsin. Ponomarev looks like he's NHL ready. Koivunen struggled in the AHL last year but is lighting up the Finnish league this year so maybe he'll get another shot. Bunting will be quite good with Sid or Malkin.

Honestly it's not bad for Pittsburgh considering he wasn't gonna re-sign.

 

[shaner8989]

But but the pens are going for a cup? That’s why dumbass traded for karlsson and signed all those depth guys.

Embarrassing. Sorry to pens fans. Although you have had enough success lol.

 

[613Leafer]

To all the fans getting worked up about the 1st being conditional: Pono is already NHL ready, and looks to be a 3rd line center with upside. How is that worth less than a late first?

Yea, I actually like the deal for Pittsburgh. Marching orders from ownership are to try and compete while Crosby & Co are still good.

Bunting steps in immediately as a cheaper Guentzel replacement. The three prospects are all producing quite well in the NCAA, Liiga, and AHL, and should be knocking on the door sooner rather than later. I'm not convinced getting a late 1st and a 2nd instead of those prospects gives you better long-term upside, and it also wouldn't help while Crosby & Co are still going. I think people are over valuing late 1st rounders and under valuing prospects drafted later that are trending pretty well.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Cruz Lucius was a 4th rounder who goes between the late 1st to 2nd round in a way-too-early 2022 redraft...he's been phenomenal at Wisconsin. Koivunen struggled in the AHL last year but is lighting up the Finnish league this year so maybe he'll get another shot. Bunting will be quite good with Sid or Malkin.

Honestly it's not bad for Pittsburgh considering he wasn't gonna re-sign.

Is that because he told them he didn't want to, or some other reason?

If Guentzel wanted to stay long-term in Pittsburgh then I'd be pissed if I was a Pens fan. Plus that EK trade looks worse by the day, if the cap they're spending on him (for the next three years) could've been used to keep Guentzel around instead.

What's next for Dubas, he going to call up Detroit and see if they can ship another former Leaf his way? Heard Woll's on the block.

 

[Toby Flenderson]

Pens need an injection of youth. If Pono and Yager can crack the lineup I’m excited. And Cruz may even compete for a spot he’s doing well in the NCAA. Let’s the kids play!

Now go trade Smith and Eller, we’ll be able to sign someone nice in free agency.

Bunting-Sid-Rust
(Free agent)-Malkin-Rakell
Cruz-Pono-Yager
O’Connor-Acciari-Bemstrom

 

[Djp]

Then the title should say conditional 2nd. That’s how other trades How other trades on here has been posted as.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

In both those trades, the most valuable piece they got was the draft pick because it ended up being relatively high and they were able to get a good player. This pick is at best 31. Karlsson was 3rd overall and Mercer 18th.

Josh Norris and Dylan DeMelo were also part of the Karlsson trade, and the Senators did well in getting them.
New Jersey also got Kevin Bahl (who is an NHL-capable defensive defenseman) in the Hall trade, and the third they got was traded to Washington for Jonas Siegenthaler.
Even without the 1st in those trades, the quantity-acquiring teams did well for themselves.

 

[Flying Dego]

To all the fans getting worked up about the 1st being conditional: Pono is already NHL ready, and looks to be a 3rd line center with upside. How is that worth less than a late first?

The only fans worked up are outside fans that loathe Dubas or just enjoy saying "see they didn't have the value"

I'm disappointed Guentzel is gone, he's always under valued and was our 2nd best player current state. He will be terrific with Aho.

Getting back guys that could play immediately makes the most sense for us so the majority of Pens fans are alright with this. Did I want a higher prospect? Sure, but things could shake out well for both parties.

Jake was gonna get paid and we need younger guys close to playing now.

 

[bigdog16]

Imagine being another contending team and not beating this deal….

Some of you should be laughing at your own front offices.

I am starting to wonder if the Rangers were just a smoke screen and never seriously in. There is no way we could have offered less than that

 

[SensFactor]

Buyers market, Pitts could have done better but not terrible

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Man...the playoffs are going to be fun. Carolina, Vegas, Colorado, Florida...stacked teams.

 

[Discipline Daddy]

Like all the other Canes fans in here, I'm a little anxious about this trade. Jake Guentzel will surely improve our team in the short term, but we gave up a LOT here. More than any rental I can recall from years' past. All 3 prospects are in our top 10 and we have a really good system. It would not surprise me if all 3 are NHLers. I would imagine at least 2 of them will make it. Pono is tearing it up in the AHL and had a 2 point 3rd period NHL game in a cup of coffee earlier this year. He plays the game the right way. Y'all will love him.

Koivunen could be the best young player in Liiga. As a Canes fan, you can imagine it is hard to give up a young PPG player for Karpat.

And Cruz Lucius is leading his team in scoring at Wisconsin as a 19 year old. He led them in scoring as an 18 year old too.

Y'all got 3 legit prospects, each of whom is worth at worst a 2nd, and at best a low 1st. It's like getting 3/4 solid 1st or 2nd round talents. And Bunting, despite his flaws, is a productive middle 6 and powerplay guy. He's a good pickup too.

If we don't re-sign Guentzel this could really come back to bite us.


Edit: also no one is talking about how Jake Guentzel is really bad defensively. There is a legitimate concern with how he will mesh with Rod, who demands that everybody and their mother play a 2-way game. Bunting was in the doghouse for a bit for not playing well defensively, but Guentzel is by all reports worse, and will have to learn the system. We know JG will thrive on the powerplay.

 

[4thline]

It's funny, if the Pens get Bunting, a 1st, and a single comparable from a less deep pool people are okay with the deal and it's right in line with where expectations should have been.

Bunting+1st+ Nadeau/Morrow be a great trade for a rental winger
Bunting+ 1st + Koivunen/Ponomarev - soso, fairish but maybe disappointing

I get wanting the shiny names you're familiar with, but in the scope of rental deals
Koivunen+Ponomarev+Lucius+2nd is actually a pretty big futures haul, and that's completely discounting a 20 goal winger that's shown the ability to play with stars.

 

[Syrinx]

Mostly because of the Antagonist and somewhat abusive position some of your fans took when projecting out the return. Telling other teams that they would be collecting or harvesting untold jewels from each teams system to the likes of which we have never seen. That aggressive positioning lead a number of people to then hope for this underwealming return to then use the receipts to say told you so… but that is only my speculation. This is close to what I thought it would cost Canucks based on our asset pool and i was told it would cost our best prospect and a player that is going, has almost 20 goals and is on a great deal and our first. So, I guess for me, it seems about right.


Go back to the previous threads on this, didn’t say shit… you must have missed the entire build up to this.

Tweets from the media and "insiders" (term used loosely) say Pittsburgh will be getting a, b, c

Pens fans talk about being thrilled to get a, b, c

Dubas trades for d, e, f

Pens fans are antagonistic and stupid for originally believing they were getting a, b, c

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I am starting to wonder if the Rangers were just a smoke screen and never seriously in. There is no way we could have offered less than that

I agree. The Rangers need a right-winger. Jake might pan out on that side, he may not. Like the other LW NYR has tried. Lafreniere has panned out, but I would imagine NYR wants a surer thing on the right side.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

Erik Karlsson to San Jose.
Taylor Hall to Arizona (as @Empoleon8771 said).
Jeff Skinner to Buffalo.

Skinner had a ntc clause and only wanted to play in the Toronto area. Right away that limited us to two teams geographically and it was really only Buffalo since Toronto had no need for another undersized winger who doesn’t play defence. Impossible to get value when there’s only one bidder.

Turned out alright for us, though, as the picks became Kochetkov and Nikishin.

 

[MXD]

If Ponomarev can center efficiently a 3rd line starting next season, that would end up being a pretty good trade for Pittsburgh, no? The first SHOULD probably have been guaranteed, however.