Confirmed Signing with Link: [CAR/MTL] Habs accept Kotkaniemi offer sheet (1 year, $6.1M), 2022 1st, 2022 3rd [Part II]

[GIN ANTONIC]

My question on this is what salary would the Habs have matched for KK?

Like let’s say Canes offer sheeted at $5.25 for 1 year. Same compensation. Still an overpayment but do Habs match that?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Well if others are hyping their players for scoring against non-NHLers, the same should apply to KK.
He's got 2 points so far it seems (1G1A) and first just finished

You're right. One bad pre-season take deserves another?

 

[CauZuki]

KK with a goal on his 3rd shift as a Hurricanes player. Imagine he goes off in Carolina. Lol.

Nothing to imagine , he's shown flashes and he just turned 21...He's going to be great if he can develop into his skillset. Physical , defensively responsible player that can contribute offensively (heavy shot and excellent passing IQ).

 

[HuGo Sham]

My question on this is what salary would the Habs have matched for KK?

Like let’s say Canes offer sheeted at $5.25 for 1 year. Same compensation. Still an overpayment but do Habs match that?

good question. I don't think so. several media pieces have come out with bergevin and habs players quotes. In bergevin's case he couldn't justify a salary that comes in higher than suzuki or some of the other young players up for new contracts. and some of his ex-teammates like Toffoli and Paquette acknowledged it would be weird if he came back at that price. That being said, no one reproached him for signing it.

I say bergevin would not have budged off of say 3 mill even if he knew Dundon was going to send that revenge offer sheet. Because it clearly was; as you can see by the fact most GM's hold the hammer on young RFA's, with few offer sheets ever actually happening.

What's interesting to me, and what we might never know is how the Dvorak trade played into this. I think Dvorak replaces Danault and habs hope one of Poehling or Evans can become some kind of version of KK, but to return to your question, if he doesn't have a Dvorak trade lined up, personally, I think he matches. And I would've matched. I like KK and don't like pissing away assets regardless of their uneven development. Guess we'll see what happens with him, but habs need a 3C to step up and play with their very deep winger group.

 

[Doc5]

My question on this is what salary would the Habs have matched for KK?

Like let’s say Canes offer sheeted at $5.25 for 1 year. Same compensation. Still an overpayment but do Habs match that?

Good question!

I think the main issue was realistically out of the 3 young and coming guys we have up front, Kotkaniemi was unfortunately the lowest on the dept chart. With Suzuki needing a new contract next year, giving Kotkaniemi a 4M+ contract after the year he had doesn't send the players the ideal message "No need to do well, someone will pay you for your pedigree". With Montreal, Kotkaniemi was expected to drive a line as we were so desperate for that big number 1 centre which was what repeatedly set him up to fail. So even if we matched that salary I don't exactly envision a scenario where he would have lived up to that salary here in Montreal.

In Carolina, it's different. There's a better core group of forwards and Kotkaniemi, as a supporting cast, can thrive. So Kotkaniemi may very well do well this year and in hindsight it can look like the Habs did a terrible mistake, but I don't think he would achieve the same while with Montreal.

 

[McJedi]

Meh, It's pre-season vs. a non-NHL goalie with a bunch of non-NHLrs in front of that goalie. I don't expect him to "go off", but hope that he'll show improvement.

Make that Two points for KK in the first period. Maybe KK has that next level he’s ready to reach in Carolina.

 

[Doc5]

You're right. One bad pre-season take deserves another?

hahah I wouldn't phrase it that way, more like one hopeful pre-season game performance deserves another.

 

[The Great Weal]

Kotkaniemi just scored the Canes first goal of the preseason.

To quote what you said:

Plan the parade!

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Make that Two points for KK in the first period. Maybe KK has that next level he’s ready to reach in Carolina.

Maybe KK has that, but making that leap from a pre-season game where he's playing with Trocheck, Teravainin, and DeAngelo on the PP against a bunch of AHLrs and a non-NHL goalie is a bit of a stretch.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

good question. I don't think so

Good question!

I think the main issue was realistically out of the 3 young and coming guys we have up front, Kotkaniemi was unfortunately the lowest on the dept chart. With Suzuki needing a new contract next year, giving Kotkaniemi a 4M+ contract after the year he had doesn't send the players the ideal message "No need to do well, someone will pay you for your pedigree". With Montreal, Kotkaniemi was expected to drive a line as we were so desperate for that big number 1 centre which was what repeatedly set him up to fail. So even if we matched that salary I don't exactly envision a scenario where he would have lived up to that salary here in Montreal.

In Carolina, it's different. There's a better core group of forwards and Kotkaniemi, as a supporting cast, can thrive. So Kotkaniemi may very well do well this year and in hindsight it can look like the Habs did a terrible mistake, but I don't think he would achieve the same while with Montreal.

That’s fair. I kind of think that’s where Carolina messed up a bit. I don’t think they needed to go $6.1. I guess they did it to give them the best chances of it working but I think they could have saved themselves a million and gotten the same result. Maybe as much as $1,5m.

$4.1 and higher would have been the same compensation. I’d say it probably needed to be $4.75 and higher for MTL not to match but I guess for 1 year the price didn’t matter and it also made the QO worse so I get that point as well.

Anyway, you’re right that they are two very different teams and KK fills a different spot/need on the roster

 

[CupInSIX]

Kotkaniemi just took a sip of gatorade in preseason. Better bump this thread.

 

[McJedi]

Maybe KK has that, but making that leap from a pre-season game where he's playing with Trocheck, Teravainin, and DeAngelo on the PP against a bunch of AHLrs and a non-NHL goalie is a bit of a stretch.

It’s likely he’ll be playing with all those guys in the regular season. Will KK be a 30 point guy? 40? 50? More?

 

[Runner77]

Didn't Svechnikov's 8-year contract answer that question a month ago?

It seems like you're trying to drum up a controversy where one doesn't exist. Dundon looks for opportunities to either lock in a key asset at an efficient cap hit, or make high-dollar short term commitments to inject talent into the system from outside. If a truly unique asset is on the table, he will pay for it. If that asset can be replaced more efficiently than retained, he will pass. This has been the pattern the entire time he's owned the team, both on and off the ice, and is consistent with the business philosophy that predates his NHL ownership.

What happened with Svechnikov has nothing to do with how Aho was handled by Dundon. Maybe Dundon learned from the Aho negotiations and altered his approach for subsequent contracts but reports at the time, as I recall, were overwhelmingly stating that Dundon was playing hardball with the Aho camp and that he was far from willing to pay a reasonable salary relative the player’s talent and expected future performance.

Aho’s talks had dragged for months and were going nowhere. The only way out of Aho’s predicament was for him to sign that offer sheet, as flawed as it was. Let’s not act as if Dundon always handled his on-ice contracts with the same type of openness and willingness to pay up, as he’s done more recently with certain players.

 

[Stripper]

It’s likely he’ll be playing with all those guys in the regular season. Will KK be a 30 point guy? 40? 50? More?

With the players surrounding him, I wouldn't be surprised he hits 50 points. Good for him if he does.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

It’s likely he’ll be playing with all those guys in the regular season. Will KK be a 30 point guy? 40? 50? More?

It is who he may be playing with, but he won't be playing against AHLrs. That's my point, he's playing with the best players on the ice right now. Even if he plays with Teravainen and Trocheck in the regular season, they won't be the best players on the ice most nights. I'm fine with being excited that he's done well so far, but it needs the right context.

I don't think 50 points is unreasonable, but I'm also not convinced he'll get it either. I need to see more than just a pre-season game or two.

 

[Runner77]

"Habs fan announces they won the offer sheet after a preseason performance from the guy they traded for to replace the player they lost" is something I would feel was totally made up but then I log into HFBoards and just... stare in amazement.

Replace Hab fan by a fan of any team in all threads and it’ll be the same result — without hyperbole and hot takes, you wouldn’t have a forum. All par for the course.

 

[Runner77]

So many salty Habs

There are barbs and attacks from both sides, really. Some might call that a form of entertainment.

 

[LakeLivin]

If I had to fight Anthony Joshua, I wouldn‘t be any closer to become the next heavy weight champion than you were to win the cup.

Not sure it's relevant to your post, but Joshua lost his heavyweight titles to Oleksandr Usyk this past weekend.

 

[tarheelhockey]

What happened with Svechnikov has nothing to do with how Aho was handled by Dundon. Maybe Dundon learned from the Aho negotiations and altered his approach for subsequent contracts but reports at the time, as I recall, were overwhelmingly stating that Dundon was playing hardball with the Aho camp and that he was far from willing to pay a reasonable salary relative the player’s talent and expected future performance.

Aho’s talks had dragged for months and were going nowhere. The only way out of Aho’s predicament was for him to sign that offer sheet, as flawed as it was. Let’s not act as if Dundon always handled his on-ice contracts with the same type of openness and willingness to pay up, as he’s done more recently with certain players.

LOL, you realize the Aho offer sheet was signed on July 1st, right?

He decided he didn’t want to spend all summer negotiating, and there was a deal on the table which would take him to UFA. Good for him. Dundon played hardball, so did Aho. That’s business, that’s the game.

Svechnikov was brought up in reference to how we need to “find out” if Dundon will sign talent long term. Well that question was answered with an 8-year deal a month ago.

At this point we know how Dundon works because he’s been completely consistent and open about his philosophy since literally Day One when he laid out how he planned to operate the team.

 

[Runner77]

LOL, you realize the Aho offer sheet was signed on July 1st, right?

He decided he didn’t want to spend all summer negotiating, and there was a deal on the table which would take him to UFA. Good for him. Dundon played hardball, so did Aho. That’s business, that’s the game.

Svechnikov was brought up in reference to how we need to “find out” if Dundon will sign talent long term. Well that question was answered with an 8-year deal a month ago.

At this point we know how Dundon works because he’s been completely consistent and open about his philosophy since literally Day One when he laid out how he planned to operate the team.

Negotiations with Aho had dragged out for months. It went way beyond your theory about Dundon willing to pay for on ice product, especially an elite asset like Aho.

As I mentioned, his negotiating approach may have evolved as a result of that failed negotiation. It wasn’t always the case that he was willing to pay what it takes to secure elite level talent long term.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Negotiations with Aho had dragged out for months. It went way beyond your theory about Dundon willing to pay for on ice product, especially an elite asset like Aho.

As I mentioned, his negotiating approach may have evolved as a result of that failed negotiation. It wasn’t always the case that he was willing to pay what it takes to secure elite level talent long term.

You seriously need to just take the L on this if the best you’ve got is an RFA signing an offer sheet on the first day of July.

The Canes have been a cap team every year under Dundon. He literally is not allowed to spend more for talent than he does.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

nvm...

 

[jfhabs]

LOL, you realize the Aho offer sheet was signed on July 1st, right?

He decided he didn’t want to spend all summer negotiating, and there was a deal on the table which would take him to UFA. Good for him. Dundon played hardball, so did Aho. That’s business, that’s the game.

Svechnikov was brought up in reference to how we need to “find out” if Dundon will sign talent long term. Well that question was answered with an 8-year deal a month ago.

At this point we know how Dundon works because he’s been completely consistent and open about his philosophy since literally Day One when he laid out how he planned to operate the team.

Perhaps the Aho situation made him change his mind about playing hardball with his stars?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Perhaps the Aho situation made him change his mind about playing hardball with his stars?

That explains why he caved so fast to Hamilton.

Not sure where this idea that Dundon changed after the Aho OS is coming from. He has been incredibly consistent:

1) He always wants to underpay if possible.
2) If not, he’ll pay market value for real, non-replaceable talent.
3)If it gets to the point of overpayment, he’ll do it only in the short term as a gamble on long term rewards.
4) The purpose of rules 1-3 isn’t to save money. It’s to be as cap-efficient as possible.

This describes nearly every transaction the Canes have made in the Dundon era, and he talks openly about it all the time.

 

[Runner77]

You seriously need to just take the L on this if the best you’ve got is an RFA signing an offer sheet on the first day of July.

The Canes have been a cap team every year under Dundon. He literally is not allowed to spend more for talent than he does.

There is no L when dealing in facts. I don’t need to do anything. Moving on since it’s clear that we’re not going to get anywhere.