Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2023 Off-season

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HTFN

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Yes it is a model based on every defenseman. That’s the whole point.

I mean I guess I don’t know how to proceed if this is the argument you’re making. You’re arguing against some very foundational ideas of mathematical statistics by saying that you can’t use trends from a population to project the behavior of another member of that same population. I don’t know how to respond to this, much like I don’t know how to respond if you said 1+1=3 other than to say you’re wrong.
Because you can't on an individual basis, because the model doesn't adjust for the various entries and exits to the league properly. Good players enter the league much sooner, and generally have an impact that shifts the scale to the point where this development arc doesn't actually mean anything for any on individual. Weighting everything with those guys means that yeah, some gus don't "improve" by average but it's not a mistake to say they actually, you know, get better.

It's such a dogshit analysis that the guy you quoted for the whole "defensemn don't improve" schtick posted later in that article that it was a very rudimentary method of analysis that created a modular "average" player and had far too much to account for to be useful, but you didn't pay any attention to that part at all while you mined the article for graphs to prove your point.
 

Jags

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With regards to Fehervary my only claim is that there is no reason for me to expect any improvement from him. The statistically most likely scenario is that this is who he is: a third pairing guy who is out of place in a good team’s top 4.

Forget the model and look at the individual. If Fehervary were a physical specimen with low IQ, forced to get by on his natural gifts, then yeah, that'd be cause for concern and dismissing him as a 3rd-pair guy and nothing more.

But that's not the case with him. He's got the physical gifts, decent instincts and IQ, good thump to his game and a willingness to jump up in the play and deliver. The knock with him is putting it all together. That takes discipline, and raising his IQ takes coaching. With the right push, there's no reason he can't take a step or two.

Our D has taken a beating since he's been a regular, with some shoddy goaltending to boot. The money and minutes he gets right now are pretty fitting for what we have going on. Not sure why he gets so much negative attention here. He's not one of the squeakier wheels by a longshot.
 

g00n

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Tl'dr most of this shit but what is "long term" for a contract and how many has Gmbm handed out in recent years?
 

twabby

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Because you can't on an individual basis, because the model doesn't adjust for the various entries and exits to the league properly. Good players enter the league much sooner, and generally have an impact that shifts the scale to the point where this development arc doesn't actually mean anything for any on individual. Weighting everything with those guys means that yeah, some gus don't "improve" by average but it's not a mistake to say they actually, you know, get better.

It's such a dogshit analysis that the guy you quoted for the whole "defensemn don't improve" schtick posted later in that article that it was a very rudimentary method of analysis that created a modular "average" player and had far too much to account for to be useful, but you didn't pay any attention to that part at all while you mined the article for graphs to prove your point.

To address the second paragraph first: that is not a fair characterization of what the author said. Indeed, here was what the author said (collapsed into spoilers):


The method we used to correct for survivorship bias seems to have done a reasonable job given the limitations of the data available. However, the delta method will always have flaws – even after addressing this bias. Lichtman has pointed out that an aging curve constructed using the delta method represents a “hybrid” player, and this by itself is an issue. Additionally, our data starts in 2008, so we are unable to include the full career of any player who has played more than 8 years in the NHL (we cannot include Jagr’s entire career, for instance). I think it’s important to note that this is an average change and not the expected change for every single player. Additionally, with any analysis of player aging there will always be players who “defy” the curve, so to speak, and that should be taken into account when looking at any given player. Regardless, I do think this approach could be applied to projection models for WAR as a potential age adjustment (like we used in the Marcel projection above). While it’s not ideal (it seems no age adjustment ever is), I think it’s more accurate than the age adjustment Marcel utilizes.

Given what we know about NHL skater aging based on various methods and approaches (which I covered in more detail in part 1), I find it very interesting that this WAR model, for the most part, lines up with the generally held belief that skaters peak around 24-25 years old and decline gradually after that (there does seem to be some indication here that the decline of players over 30 might not be as steep as is often assumed). While some of the individual components do not show this, the EV Overall WAR and Overall WAR numbers do – I might argue they strengthen this notion. As we get more data, these curves may change, but for right now EV Overall WAR and Overall WAR seem to support what we already know. From an aging perspective, this metric makes sense. In my opinion, that alone lends credence to its validity.

This is hardly the author admitting the model was useless. Quite the opposite.

To address your first paragraph: there’s no reason to believe good players skew the aging curve to the left because the method used measures relative change in impact over time, not their absolute impacts by age.

Perhaps higher-end players age differently than others. Perhaps they peak earlier and that skews the overall distribution. That’s an argument you could make, but you’d need to sift through the data to actually prove that it’s a true statement. I remember last offseason I was asked to only look at how a bunch of Fehervary’s comparables aged and what I found was they did not defy the same curve on average as the entire population.
 

Brian23

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Did someone start dragging Sammi assuming she was "leaking" what the Caps were working on? I must have missed this drama.
 

YippieKaey

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Yes it is a model based on every defenseman. That’s the whole point.

I mean I guess I don’t know how to proceed if this is the argument you’re making. You’re arguing against some very foundational ideas of mathematical statistics by saying that you can’t use trends from a population to project the behavior of another member of that same population. I don’t know how to respond to this, much like I don’t know how to respond if you said 1+1=3 other than to say you’re wrong.

Is there really sufficient data to predict trends though? Like you said, some get better, some get worse. How much worse did Myers become and how much better did Dahlin become? How is that weighted? What intermediate variables other than "goals above replacement" are in the model? Is stuff like coaching, veteran teammates, injuries etc taken into account?
 

twabby

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Is there really sufficient data to predict trends though? Like you said, some get better, some get worse. How much worse did Myers become and how much better did Dahlin become? How is that weighted? What intermediate variables other than "goals above replacement" are in the model? Is stuff like coaching, veteran teammates, injuries etc taken into account?

I think there is sufficient data to create a trend. But more importantly I think there is sufficient data to deny that the trend is steady improvement throughout the 20s as many have suggested before. That trend is not suggested by the data at all.

GAR tries to account for everything on-ice. Hockeyviz’s model actually tries to control for coaching effects as well. They’re not perfect, but nothing ever is.
 

Ridley Simon

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I think there is sufficient data to create a trend. But more importantly I think there is sufficient data to deny that the trend is steady improvement throughout the 20s as many have suggested before. That trend is not suggested by the data at all.

GAR tries to account for everything on-ice. Hockeyviz’s model actually tries to control for coaching effects as well. They’re not perfect, but nothing ever is.
Who is this GAR, and why does he/she always try to account for everything?

GAR is exhausting. GAR needs to move on to the NBA, and have fun dissecting the Wizards. So we can all stop talking to it.

PS — is GAR related to Garp (from the World According to Garp??). That would explain a whole helluva lot.
 

twabby

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Who is this GAR, and why does he/she always try to account for everything?

GAR is exhausting. GAR needs to move on to the NBA, and have fun dissecting the Wizards. So we can all stop talking to it.

PS — is GAR related to Garp (from the World According to Garp??). That would explain a whole helluva lot.

Simon and GARfunkel
 
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HTFN

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To address the second paragraph first: that is not a fair characterization of what the author said. Indeed, here was what the author said (collapsed into spoilers):


This is hardly the author admitting the model was useless. Quite the opposite.

To address your first paragraph: there’s no reason to believe good players skew the aging curve to the left because the method used measures relative change in impact over time, not their absolute impacts by age.

Perhaps higher-end players age differently than others. Perhaps they peak earlier and that skews the overall distribution. That’s an argument you could make, but you’d need to sift through the data to actually prove that it’s a true statement. I remember last offseason I was asked to only look at how a bunch of Fehervary’s comparables aged and what I found was they did not defy the same curve on average as the entire population.
I should have been more clear, it has limited value and ceases being more valuable than 1 on 1 coaching as soon as the idea is to use that alone to determine the future of a player. It's basically a chart that says "old teams likely to stop seeing success at some point", which, duh. I'm too busy building the worst motorcycle of all time to go find the quote but I distinctly remember something from that piece, I think it was actually the "defensemen peak at 22" thing, writer basically went "yeah, that's what it says, and maybe there's something to it but we also just know better, and should be wary of what that 'means' for our conclusion as a whole".

When you read down the full list of caveats... you're ignoring so many things in favor of this one figure... Individual skill ceiling, coaching and role, the prospect of being a late bloomer (both explicitly mentioned when analyzing individuals)... I feel like we read different quotes there, because to me the writer is basically saying that it can be used as a secondary/tertiary way to account for value when using/improving other models, but the "hybrid player" concern seems valid, noting they're average rates and not expected rates is also a huge admission of the limitation

None of this really sounds to me like you can look at the graph, find the age of the guy you want, and then decide when his value is at its highest and punt with certainty knowing his game is about to fall apart.
 

g00n

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My golf cart number yesterday.

It's a sign.
 

alphabetical

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Those Carlson and Fehervary takes are aging pretty well TBH. Who knows, maybe I’ll be wrong about Wilson (not bloody likely).
How can you declare that your assertion that fehervary will never get better is aging well? You said that this week - it hasn't aged at all!
 
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Raikkonen

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In the same interview Kuzy said he has been injured a lot past season, like a series of little things and also said his back wasn't exactly good.

Said he was dealing with it this summer for 2 months straight as a first priority (health). Hopes to be better next season (and sounded like healing gone well enough), and even said it was motivating him (having to play a tough season under Lavi, with injuries and not that good results statistically, something like that). Said he (and not only him) hit a wall with Lavi's hockey and it was not fun in the end without easy exit from that hole. Not exact words, mind you.

Sounded like he expects Ovi to beat the record and be there to celebrate it with him in the same uniform at least :P

Said overall the season wasn't that bad actually :D
 

itsjustsurvival

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I can't wait until the season starts so we can stop bickering about models and projections and just be mad together about how bad we suck.
Dude, I was thinking the exact same thing. We have so much to look forward to, think of the possibilities. The powerplay failing despite Forsythe's departure. Edmundson playing 25 min a night. Another season full of injuries. It's going to be great!
 

um

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Dude, I was thinking the exact same thing. We have so much to look forward to, think of the possibilities. The powerplay failing despite Forsythe's departure. Edmundson playing 25 min a night. Another season full of injuries. It's going to be great!
My biggest fear is our rookie coach won't have the balls to play the old guys in their appropriate roles.

Even Lavi felt the need to play Backstrom as a 1C when he came back. He even scratched our best center before demoting the old guys. God Lavi sucked.
 
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kicksavedave

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In the same interview Kuzy said he has been injured a lot past season, like a series of little things and also said his back wasn't exactly good.

Said he was dealing with it this summer for 2 months straight as a first priority (health). Hopes to be better next season (and sounded like healing gone well enough), and even said it was motivating him (having to play a tough season under Lavi, with injuries and not that good results statistically, something like that). Said he (and not only him) hit a wall with Lavi's hockey and it was not fun in the end without easy exit from that hole. Not exact words, mind you.

Sounded like he expects Ovi to beat the record and be there to celebrate it with him in the same uniform at least :P

Said overall the season wasn't that bad actually :D

Friendly reminder that Brooks Laich once said that NHL players don't just suddenly go from being solid to suck, its always an undisclosed injury behind those big drops in performance, that NHL players play through injuries far too often that impact their performance, and fans don't always see these things. It checks out.

We've all discussed the "Kuzy don't care" theory plenty, but I for one and expecting a nice bounce back season from him under Carby.
 
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g00n

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Friendly reminder that Brooks Laich once said that NHL players don't just suddenly go from being solid to suck, its always an undisclosed injury behind those big drops in performance, that NHL players play through injuries far too often that impact their performance, and fans don't always see these things. It checks out.

We've all discussed the "Kuzy don't care" theory plenty, but I for one and expecting a nice bounce back season from him under Carby.

We can assume every pro athlete is playing with injuries. Some guys fight through them better than others.
 
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kicksavedave

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We can assume every pro athlete is playing with injuries. Some guys fight through them better than others.

Yep, and some injuries are worse than others. Point is, pro's don't just suddenly get "suck" for no reason.

The interview admitting what we all knew, that the team in general quit on Lavi, is also no surprise. We'll find out what impact SC has but its hard to imagine them not rebounding somewhat.
 

g00n

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Tl'dr most of this shit but what is "long term" for a contract and how many has Gmbm handed out in recent years?

Didn't see this answered. Was it 8yrs for Carlson after the Cup win in 2018?
Oshie's 8yr deal was in 2017, as was Kuzy's.
Backstrom's deal in 2020 was 5yrs, which seems to be the max Gmbm is handing out these days (DK, Strome, etc).

Re: Tom Wilson, we can assume he's probably getting 5yrs at most like everyone else. That would put him at 34yrs old for almost all of his final year.

I hope we're not pissing our pants over that.
 
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