Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines/etc) | 2023-24 Regular Season Edition

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So much here. Let me start with, wherever you put Kuz, he's dragging someone down. The vets are gonna be better able to handle it than the young'ns who need to be put in positions to succeed at this stage--or even than a guy like Mantha who's confidence was in the shitter and needed to have some success to get back on track.

You don't treat him like any other player on the roster, because, well, he's not. He makes $8M a year and could, if he wanted, be the best player on the team. As for McMike, this coaching regime has not done any of the things you mention. Phillips is a marginal NHLer. Strome and Milano are both struggling a bit. Sitting them might not be punitive so much as just... we need to win the game. Put the guys who are going out there.

Kuz is not untouchable. He's just here. And he's paid a shit-ton to perform. Carbery is focused on trying to get at least some of that money's worth and is smart enough to know that Kuz doesn't actually GAF so sitting him isn't going to make a difference. Good coaches treat players differently based on experience, temperament, etc. The only strategy that might work for Kuz is putting him in a position where he's having fun. That's it. That's all 92 cares about.

All this punishment envy is indicative of folks who've never managed anyone. People are different. They respond to various levers differently. The guy who cares about his ice time and his place in the lineup will respond to having ice time cut or being demoted a line. Kuz though, he probably likes nachos, so telling him he can watch hockey and eat nachos, maybe with his wife and kids in the box, isn't gonna motivate him to play better--he'll just enjoy eating nachos and watching hockey.
Don't you think we are starting to get beyond this phase?

If someone is dragging down whoever he plays with and isn't a positive player no matter who he plays with, isn't that a clear indication that he shouldn't be up here?

I get your argument how it's worse for the kids to be stuck with this kind of player rather than our captain and future captain but at some point you got to just look at the situation and decide if coddling this guy is worth sinking our franchise player and elite power forward with him. We need those guys to be better. We need Kuznetsov to be better but he hasn't done that in years and every line that he has been moved to has gone worse.

So do we keep coddling this guy for how long? I think the announcers said he's #3 in NHL in forwards ice-time. And that's just gross. You hand him keys to the kingdom because he decided to fold while still making 8 million dollars?

We all know that this guy won't respond to anything and just wants to have fun. I don't really give a shit at this stage if he responds to being benched or sent down to Hershey by enjoying the nachos. I'd keep feeding him those until he decides to either finally start to give a shit or go back to Russia.

I'd get your point better if he was helping the team. He isn't. He is dragging it down while mostly showing to younger players how NHL player shouldn't behave.
 
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Don't you think we are starting to get beyond this phase?

If someone is dragging down whoever he plays with and isn't a positive player no matter who he plays with, isn't that a clear indication that he shouldn't be up here?

I get your argument how it's worse for the kids to be stuck with this kind of player rather than our captain and future captain but at some point you got to just look at the situation and decide if coddling this guy is worth sinking our franchise player and elite power forward with him. We need those guys to be better. We need Kuznetsov to be better but he hasn't done that in years and every line that he has been moved to has gone worse.

So do we keep coddling this guy for how long? I think the announcers said he's #3 in NHL in forwards ice-time. And that's just gross. You hand him keys to the kingdom because he decided to fold while still making 8 million dollars?

We all know that this guy won't respond to anything and just wants to have fun. I don't really give a shit at this stage if he responds to being benched or sent down to Hershey by enjoying the nachos. I'd keep feeding him those until he decides to either finally start to give a shit or go back to Russia.

I'd get your point better if he was helping the team. He isn't. He is dragging it down while mostly showing to younger players how NHL player shouldn't behave.
My position is that I don't think he's being coddled and we're not yet past this phase. We're only 20 games into the season. Lots of guys are just getting their games in order/adapting to the system: See for example: Mantha and Wilson. So no. It's appropriate for Carbery to keep trying for at least a while longer.

Also, this locker room has a lot of leadership guys who can help counter the Kuzy effect on young players.
 
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Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to see 92 gone. But he's got a significant NTC and is expensive for this year and next. Unless he starts performing well enough for some GM to want him, he's gonna cost a lot more than Panik did to unload. So might as well keep trying to get him to play better and be more marketable.

I've generally agreed so far and advocated for Carbery doing exactly this due to the various costs associated with Kuzy and possibly replacing him. There wasn't any other option initially.

I'm basically saying I don't think he's going to do much to increase his value no matter how much Carbery plays him, and we may not be sellers despite his best/worst efforts.

If this team can win while dragging b0@t@nch0r92 around the ice for 60min a night then how much better might they be with even a mediocre replacement?

If we're not sellers at the TDL then what? Do they keep him around and continue to hope for a change in attitude when he's basically had 1-2 good playoff runs his entire career and appears to be phoning it in until his contract is up or someone trades him for a loss?

If we are sellers at the TDL then the result has to be different compared to last year when they couldn't move him at all, and that's only going to get harder the more he dogs it and just plays rando hockey with his usual "f*** it" high risk half-ass speculative flash play that has nothing to do with the team game.

IOW, I think he's out of chances and they have to move on whatever the cost before the decision is made for them again.
 
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I've generally agreed so far and advocated for Carbery doing exactly this due to the various costs associated with Kuzy and possibly replacing him. There wasn't any other option initially.

I'm basically saying I don't think he's going to do much to increase his value no matter how much Carbery plays him, and we may not be sellers despite his best/worst efforts.

If this team can win while dragging b0@t@nch0r92 around the ice for 60min a night then how much better might they be with even a mediocre replacement?

If we're not sellers at the TDL then what? Do they keep him around and continue to hope for a change in attitude when he's basically had 1-2 good playoff runs his entire career and appears to be phoning it in until his contract is up or someone trades him for a loss?

If we are sellers at the TDL then the result has to be different compared to last year when they couldn't move him at all, and that's only going to get harder the more he dogs it and just plays rando hockey with his usual "f*** it" high risk half-ass speculative flash play that has nothing to do with the team game.

IOW, I think he's out of chances and they have to move on whatever the cost before the decision is made for them again.
Fair enough. As I said in another post: I do not want his lazy ass sent to Hershey. Those kids do not need to be exposed to that nonsense. If he can be unloaded, fine. If he ends up eating the world's most expensive nachos, fine. But unless and until Mac and Carbery can work that out/decide to give up, I'm personally also fine playing him with Ovie and Willy who are not gonna be much harmed by it.
 
Don't you think we are starting to get beyond this phase?

If someone is dragging down whoever he plays with and isn't a positive player no matter who he plays with, isn't that a clear indication that he shouldn't be up here?

I get your argument how it's worse for the kids to be stuck with this kind of player rather than our captain and future captain but at some point you got to just look at the situation and decide if coddling this guy is worth sinking our franchise player and elite power forward with him. We need those guys to be better. We need Kuznetsov to be better but he hasn't done that in years and every line that he has been moved to has gone worse.

So do we keep coddling this guy for how long? I think the announcers said he's #3 in NHL in forwards ice-time. And that's just gross. You hand him keys to the kingdom because he decided to fold while still making 8 million dollars?

We all know that this guy won't respond to anything and just wants to have fun. I don't really give a shit at this stage if he responds to being benched or sent down to Hershey by enjoying the nachos. I'd keep feeding him those until he decides to either finally start to give a shit or go back to Russia.

I'd get your point better if he was helping the team. He isn't. He is dragging it down while mostly showing to younger players how NHL player shouldn't behave.

I hear you. I think that at the heart of this tentative approach is organizational mandate to keep winning games. In order for a coaching staff to start sending strong messages about team philosophy and performance standards, they have to be prepared to lose games. Possibly a lot of games.

Look at it this way. They scratch Kuznetsov, for example, or go the whole way and send him down. What happens if you lose the next 2-3 games? It might well happen because you have Strome and McMichael as your top-6 centers. Both are pacing for a ~40 point season. One of them will have to start towing Ovi around. Are you putting Kuznetsov back in? You have to be prepared to accept losses.

On the other hand.... you might well be correct. How many years do you have to give Kuznetsov before you rip that bandaid off? This tentative approach gets on my nerves sometimes. It has earned the Caps five pretty fruitless years and counting.
 
Fair enough. As I said in another post: I do not want his lazy ass sent to Hershey. Those kids do not need to be exposed to that nonsense.
Yes, please keep him in Washington. Don't mess up the decent things going on "down on the farm." Question, though, in all seriousness. If waived, would he even report? If he didn't report, could he be waived again for contract termination? I recall that happening at some point in recent history (Buffalo maybe?). I could be way off and who knows, maybe Kuzy likes chocolate and reports, which ruins everything.
 
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Standings at the 20 gm mark for each team

East Standings (20 gms played)
Team W-L-OT PTS
BOS 14-03-3 31
FLA 12-07-1 25
DET 11-06-3 25
TOR 11-06-3 25
TBL 09-06-5 23
BUF 09-09-2 20
MTL 09-09-2 20
OTT 08-09-0 16 (17GP)

NYR 15-04-1 31
WSH 12-06-2 26
CAR 12-08-0 24
NYI 08-06-6 22
PHI 10-09-1 21
NJD 10-09-1 21
PIT 10-10-0 20
CBJ 05-11-4 14
 
One reason to treat him with kid gloves would be if he's playing through some kind of physical impairment other than just the deterioration that comes with age and the mileage on his body. Folks in last night's GDT were alluding to marks on his neck perhaps being linked to some of the stiffness and limited mobility we're seeing.

That said, still think he'd benefit from shedding a few, since being a bit lighter on his feet would help with agility, first step, starts and stops, and reversals - all of which are very, very no bueno. Also, his ability to receive a pass has plummeted off the table this season, and again almost cost us a shorty last night.

And yet with all that, he still got 2 assists last night, and remains our leading scorer. So how do you not keep putting him out there?

But why he's on the ice with Kuzy and not Strome is a mystery. Maybe it's for Kuzy's benefit - being on the ice w/8 somehow ups Kuzy's accountability and responsibility as a player.

It's Kuzy though - nobody knows anything, except what they see, which is also pretty no bueno - except that he appears to be (along with 24) one of the few forwards that is capable of carrying the puck up ice and into the zone. Maybe that's why he's more valuable to us than any other team - most of which have more than 2 guys who can do that..
Yeah I pointed it out last night. This is the third game this season I've noticed fresh cupping circles on his neck. I'm no doctor but I get cupping therapy for my back and they generally hit my spine area top to bottom all the way to the base of my neck. So maybe he's got a bad back, shoulder or neck. Can't imagine he's doing the therapy for shits and giggles.
 
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On Carbery / Kuzy comments. I have lead large sales teams most of my career. I use sports analogies that translate to business. Here is a business analogy applied to sports.

You Lead Teams. You Manage individuals.

That is what Carbery is doing. He is leading the team which is focusing on team goals - like winning. How he manages players is different for each player. How you manage Kuzy is going to be different than how you manage Milano. People respond to different things. To do this you have to build relationships based on trust and respect. Those Relationships take time. That is still happening 20 games into the season.

Thing is you can’t “get through” to all individuals. Carbery has made an impact on many individuals. Some he hasn’t. Doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but may take more time. Players are investments. With Kuzy, at $7.8M, you gotta keep building trust and respect and that is likely why he is getting so much ice time. OV I think is a different issues. Jensen was slow to adopt in WSH 4 years ago.

Not even 25% of way through season, so gotta keep working the system. If next 62 are like last 20 we’ll be in good shape.
 
On Carbery / Kuzy comments. I have lead large sales teams most of my career. I use sports analogies that translate to business. Here is a business analogy applied to sports.

You Lead Teams. You Manage individuals.

That is what Carbery is doing. He is leading the team which is focusing on team goals - like winning. How he manages players is different for each player. How you manage Kuzy is going to be different than how you manage Milano. People respond to different things. To do this you have to build relationships based on trust and respect. Those Relationships take time. That is still happening 20 games into the season.

Thing is you can’t “get through” to all individuals. Carbery has made an impact on many individuals. Some he hasn’t. Doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but may take more time. Players are investments. With Kuzy, at $7.8M, you gotta keep building trust and respect and that is likely why he is getting so much ice time. OV I think is a different issues. Jensen was slow to adopt in WSH 4 years ago.

Not even 25% of way through season, so gotta keep working the system. If next 62 are like last 20 we’ll be in good shape.
Great way to put it. It's not about stats and equal application of the rules so as to maximize the stats, it's about figuring out which stats you can break by adequate mentorship, positive affirmation (if necessary), etc.

Like... Mantha right now (granted he isn't blowing it out of the water but he had a scratch or two, and now we're seeing a new dude for the time being), it's possible that playing the buttons in a certain order can create building blocks that lead to a more possessive and dominant player.

It's also true that the building blocks aren't universal. Kuznetsov doesn't need to be shown that he can take over games, this dude knows that. He needs to be shown that he needs to in a way that makes it resonate with him, and can make him want to carry other people on his back instead of punching in, trying some stuff, mostly being useless, and punching out again.

Maybe that is a slow burn. Maybe it never happens. I would love if there's a moment in game 40 where Carbery finally goes "do you see how you doing what you want is hurting these people?" and it all clicks but maybe it never does. Hell, it'd be nice if it comes before then, but he has to try everything before he can say there's nothing left to try, and that might mean leveraging the respect of the people pulling the weight right now.

Now... there's a non-zero chance that Kuznetsov doesn't respect Ovechkin that way. Might not be large and we don't really know, but personally I've never noticed Kuznetsov to be in the Ovechkin+Orlov+Russians group to the point that they were all a unit. It's speculative at best but maybe there's just a slight rift there? Sometimes it felt like you'd see Ovechkin+Orlov+Alexeyev out and Kuznetsov just absent, and hey, if that's personal flavor and they're all still tight that's fine with me, I need my recharge space too. I just think it's interesting, especially in light of the Ovechkin/Sammy/Kuznetsov friendships and how that all played out, and then Kuznetsov trying to get in Alexeyev's ear about staying.
 
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Fair enough. As I said in another post: I do not want his lazy ass sent to Hershey. Those kids do not need to be exposed to that nonsense. If he can be unloaded, fine. If he ends up eating the world's most expensive nachos, fine. But unless and until Mac and Carbery can work that out/decide to give up, I'm personally also fine playing him with Ovie and Willy who are not gonna be much harmed by it.

Absolutely! One of the best games of hockey I've watched in years was the Game 7 Calder Cup. That locker room to me looked really close and their hard work and comradery payed off. I'll take Beck Malenstyn types any day over lazy pure skilled guys who take nights off. Nothing can get under my skin worse than watching someone with so much skill many players can dream of having and wasting it with laziness and a negative attitude.
 
On Carbery / Kuzy comments. I have lead large sales teams most of my career. I use sports analogies that translate to business. Here is a business analogy applied to sports.

You Lead Teams. You Manage individuals.

That is what Carbery is doing. He is leading the team which is focusing on team goals - like winning. How he manages players is different for each player. How you manage Kuzy is going to be different than how you manage Milano. People respond to different things. To do this you have to build relationships based on trust and respect. Those Relationships take time. That is still happening 20 games into the season.

Thing is you can’t “get through” to all individuals. Carbery has made an impact on many individuals. Some he hasn’t. Doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but may take more time. Players are investments. With Kuzy, at $7.8M, you gotta keep building trust and respect and that is likely why he is getting so much ice time. OV I think is a different issues. Jensen was slow to adopt in WSH 4 years ago.

Not even 25% of way through season, so gotta keep working the system. If next 62 are like last 20 we’ll be in good shape.

This is absolutely true, but the gamble here is that Carbery is either an interpersonal wizard wunderkind who has the magical ability to reach Kuzy when several other veteran and rookie coaches could not, or else he's just randomly got something in his approach that will resonate with Kuzy given enough time.

It's not impossible but I'm increasingly skeptical, not of Carbery's abilities but that the above scenarios are true.

Rarely do "wantaway" players ever fully turn it around and buy back into the team they're trying to escape, or that tried to get rid of them.
 
32nd in pp%, 31st in goals scored but 12th in the league with 1-2 games in hand on most teams. Imagine if our offense was middle of the pack. We could be #1 in the league lol.
 
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Kuzy has been Kuzy under every coach. He isn’t going to change. Jettison him and let’s move on.

This would be addition by subtraction.

The only coach who could get consistently good results out of him was Trotz. The difference is that Trotz got him as a rookie and made him earn his ice time and his pay check.

Once he got the big pay check and a Cup ring is when he stopped caring.
 
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The only coach who could get consistently good results out of him was Trotz. The difference is that Trotz got him as a rookie and made him earn his ice time and his pay check.

Once he got the big pay check and a Cup ring is when he stopped caring.

He was okay under Todd too. Not as good as the cup year but he was still producing. He hit rock bottom under Lavi.
 
He was okay under Todd too. Not as good as the cup year but he was still producing. He hit rock bottom under Lavi.

He was always producing at a clip below expectations. He should've been a consistent 30g guy and he never was. He should've been a force in the playoffs but other than 2018 he largely laid big Kuzybird eggs.

He should've been better than OK
 
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32nd in pp%, 31st in goals scored but 12th in the league with 1-2 games in hand on most teams. Imagine if our offense was middle of the pack. We could be #1 in the league lol.
I have no idea what to think of this team. Generally I think they don’t have the offensive horses to keep this pace up and as soon as Lindgren comes back to earth they’re going to put a string of Ls together. Conversely, they haven’t been playing great and they can’t score for shit and they’re still winning so if their offense gets back to league average, as you said, they could be cooking.

I guess the optimistic / pessimistic quandary is which do you think is more likely to happen: they start scoring goals at some point or they fall back once they stop getting timely goaltending because they can’t score?
 
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I think Kuznetsov is probably a little lazy but also just isn't as good as people think.

He had one stellar Cup run, one great year (15-16), and a couple of pretty good years, but otherwise has never really been a star player. I think people way overestimate how talented he is.
 
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I think Kuznetsov is probably a little lazy but also just isn't as good as people think.

He had one stellar Cup run, one great year (15-16), and a couple of pretty good years, but otherwise has never really been a star player. I think people way overestimate how talented he is.

His high has been very high though, it's just that he has never really been able to keep it that high consistently. With Kuzy it's more about the potential considering those highs.
 
I have no idea what to think of this team. Generally I think they don’t have the offensive horses to keep this pace up and as soon as Lindgren comes back to earth they’re going to put a string of Ls together. Conversely, they haven’t been playing great and they can’t score for shit and they’re still winning so if their offense gets back to league average, as you said, they could be cooking.

I guess the optimistic / pessimistic quandary is which do you think is more likely to happen: they start scoring goals at some point or they fall back once they stop getting timely goaltending because they can’t score?

Indeed. I mean Ovi should get more goals going forwards but i guess that will happen simultaneously to goaltending going away. So both is my answer.
 
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