Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2022-23 Season Part 3: Drop the puck!

[AlexModvechkin8]

I'm getting closer to this point. Thanksgiving is usually a large enough sample size to determine nearly the entire playoff field, though maybe not the seeding. And right now they're 3pts out of a WC spot with several teams to jump over, and 3-5-2 in their last 10. Goal differential of -7 is 2nd worst in the East.

16 points in 18 games is a 72 point pace. Last year they squeaked into a WC spot with 100pts. 72 would've put them 3rd worst in the East, which is very close to where they are currently.

Not looking good. A firesale may be coming.

But I have a suspicion they'll tinker or stand pat by the TDL if they're still a few points out of a WC spot, figuring "what the hell".

I don’t think they’ll stand pat. Doesn’t strike me as BMac’s style. The only way they stand pat is if Ted tells Brian not to do anything and wait until the off-season.

 

[max21]

I’d rather suck this year and off load some contracts than sneak into the playoffs just to lose in the first round again. I don’t think I can mentally handle another series like last year. The Islanders had a lost year last year and look very competent again now, though they’re not as old as our core.

 

[marcel snapshot]

Kind of shocked at how un-fun they are to watch. With the exception of the Edmonton win, the games they've played feature really pedestrian, dull hockey. Sure, they don't have Nick and had been missing Orlov, 2 of their more creative guys with the puck, and Kuz (other than the Oilers game) has pretty much been AWOL.

But with the exception of Dowd and Hath they're not at all hard to play against - they lack pace and creativity, their entries largely suck, they concede a lot of ice, they aren't particularly physical, and they struggle to play cohesively on both sides of the ice.

Against Las Vegas, they were cohesive in suppressing scoring chances, and against Edmonton they were cohesive in attacking the Oil's porous D - but they haven't come close to playing cohesively on both sides of the ice for the bulk of a game. If they had last year's goal-tending, their record would likely be in the putrid zone - as opposed to the meh zone that it's in now.

Been a Caps fan for a long time, and the team has been pretty consistent in being able to hold my interest even in down years. But their games seem to feature extended periods of lifelessness which is a core hockey no-no - and you can't just put that on injuries.

 

[Kuz]

Why do people think Oshie doesnt have trade value? We have traded 2nd rounders like every year for players who couldnt carry his jock strap.

Mostly there are very few good teams with close to 6 millions at the TDL and he has a long contract with history of injury. So hes more than a rental you as you have to keep him for several years with uncertanity if he is gonna play much. Not that many team want a that old player for several years.

 

[um]

nvm.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Lmfao nobody panics and acts like they’re too big to validate the things they’re so positive of quite like you.

Even taking the time would be Chara and Siegenthaler all over again, so no. This time you do anything to engage with the content or just stop pretending you’re trying

you know what? It's the holidays so I'll give you one more for free. It's not the easiest thing to find deployment stats for 1998 but I did find faceoff stats. Briere and McMichael played just over 60 NHL games these seasons and nearly identical TOI (718 v. 712 minutes), Briere still took 484 faceoffs to McMichael's 345.

Smart money says they let their center play center. They also let him play in the AHL when they wouldn't develop him anywhere else, lol.

You brought up Briere as in some lame ass example then tried to send me off to validate if he played a few shifts at wing when I pushed back on said lame ass example. Who do you think you’re dealing with here? Lol…keep amusing me…but damn your forum game is weak!

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

McCarthy makes the decisions on d-pairs, not Lavi!

Who submits the lineups? Lineup decisions are all ultimately on Lavi.

 

[Jags]

You brought up Briere as in some lame ass example then tried to send me off to validate if he played a few shifts at wing when I pushed back on said lame ass example. Who do you think you’re dealing with here? Lol…keep amusing me…but damn your forum game is weak!

Come on, that wasn't a lame example. Briere was definitely faster, but a solid example of what HTFN was referencing: An IQ player. An easier example would be Backstrom. Backstrom was a brilliant center in every phase of the game and would have been a mediocre wing at best. Playing center is cerebral and requires heaping amounts of responsibility and tactics that playing wing just plain doesn't. You know this.

You also know that CMM's rep fits that mold. Not much about his pedigree to date suggests that he's a straight-ahead physical marvel that can just flat out play. His game was always going to take a minute to translate, and his prospects here were iffy from the jump before Backstrom's injury because he projects pretty purely as a center and we were stacked at the position. You talk like it's a universal truth that any good center should be able to stand out just as much at wing. That's not true, and I think you know that.

Two different skillsets. Sometimes there's plenty of overlap; many centers clearly do have that potential. Briere was always going to be a better center, but had the speed/skating/shot to maybe excel at wing. Lots of great centers lack the tools to excel at wing unless they're given a lot of leeway to be creative with their deployments. Does it sound to you like McMichael's being given any leeway at all?

McMike's strengths were always his hockey sense and intelligence. Elite positioning instincts and ability to read the game. Despite having some of the physical gifts, he's wasted at wing. These deployments do very little, if anything, for his development. Might be good to correct that clunky stride, but aside from that...

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Come on, that wasn't a lame example. Briere was definitely faster, but a solid example of what HTFN was referencing: An IQ player. An easier example would be Backstrom. Backstrom was a brilliant center in every phase of the game and would have been a mediocre wing at best. Playing center is cerebral and requires heaping amounts of responsibility and tactics that playing wing just plain doesn't. You know this.

You also know that CMM's rep fits that mold. Not much about his pedigree to date suggests that he's a straight-ahead physical marvel that can just flat out play. His game was always going to take a minute to translate, and his prospects here were iffy from the jump before Backstrom's injury because he projects pretty purely as a center and we were stacked at the position. You talk like it's a universal truth that any good center should be able to stand out just as much at wing. That's not true, and I think you know that.

Two different skillsets. Sometimes there's plenty of overlap; many centers clearly do have that potential. Briere was always going to be a better center, but had the speed/skating/shot to maybe excel at wing. Lots of great centers lack the tools to excel at wing unless they're given a lot of leeway to be creative with their deployments. Does it sound to you like McMichael's being given any leeway at all?

McMike's strengths were always his hockey sense and intelligence. Elite positioning instincts and ability to read the game. Despite having some of the physical gifts, he's wasted at wing. These deployments do very little, if anything, for his development. Might be good to correct that clunky stride, but aside from that...

I don’t know what is keeping CMM off the ice, and what’s keeping him from being good when he’s on it. You can kiss up to your forum buddy over Briere all you want.

All I said was it would help if CMM could you know, NOT be JAG at wing when he DOES get playing time, so he could make himself easier to integrate into the lineup (and eventually earn his regular place). Do you disagree?

I played C mostly in my amateur hockey career, but also a lot of LW. Playing wing isn’t rocket science. You all are making excuses for CMM. He doesn’t need to be a physical specimen or sick on the boards, or even overly physical to play well at wing, he just needs to play better.

A top-6 talent C should be able to play adequately well and let his skill shine through even at wing……especially since he’s a noted SHOOTING Center!

 

[Jags]

I don’t know what is keeping CMM off the ice, and what’s keeping him from being good when he’s on it. You can kiss up to your forum buddy over Briere all you want.

Why ya always gotta put that "I'm gonna be a dick about this for no reason" stink on these posts?

All I said was it would help if CMM could you know, NOT be JAG at wing when he DOES get playing time, so he could make himself easier to integrate into the lineup (and eventually earn his regular place). Do you disagree?

Do I agree that NHL players shouldn't suck? Sure. Do I agree that players shouldn't suck when deployed against type? No. That happens with a real frequency.

I played C mostly in my amateur hockey career, but also a lot of LW. Playing wing isn’t rocket science.

I did roughly the same through 3 years of college, and you're right. Playing wing isn't rocket science. But compared to playing wing, playing center to elite offensive results IS rocket science. So when you have a guy that thrives at the differences between those two things, you embrace the hell out of that extra talent. You don't flush it.

A top-6 talent C should be able to play adequately well and let his skill shine through even at wing……especially since he’s a noted SHOOTING Center!

Being a shooting center was like 5th on his CV, behind (interestingly) his neutral zone play, defensive stickwork, and play in his own zone. Being a "noted" shooting anything in juniors means exactly zilch unless you have that rare sniper pedigree.

You know all those bullshit shots Kuzy takes on the man advantage that the goalie can see coming cleanly and NEVER go in? THAT is the kind of "noted" shooting talent McMichael was billed with; the kind that beats iffy junior goaltenders regularly but figures to do not a whole lot at the NHL level without work. That's a whole different thing.

He has a real good shot, make no mistake. But translating that to NHL success is a process that'll take time no matter which position he plays. His shot was never on par with what Burakovsky or Vrana had coming into the league. His brain and vision were the key assets from day one.

Wasted at wing.

 

[SecretaryofDefense5]

Imagine if they could land Bedard..,

 

[HTFN]

You brought up Briere as in some lame ass example then tried to send me off to validate if he played a few shifts at wing when I pushed back on said lame ass example. Who do you think you’re dealing with here? Lol…keep amusing me…but damn your forum game is weak!

Lol, no, you said you were positive he was probably utilized at wing the same way and I told you to prove it.

Only thing I found would suggest that Briere played a lot more under center in his age 21 season than McMichael did, through sheer faceoff use alone. I know exactly who I’m dealing with, the same guy that goes looking for the ejector seat just like this every single time anyone backs themselves up with something you weren’t ready for.

Any time you’re willing to engage with the content I’m waiting.

 

[traparatus]

Mostly there are very few good teams with close to 6 millions at the TDL and he has a long contract with history of injury. So hes more than a rental you as you have to keep him for several years with uncertanity if he is gonna play much. Not that many team want a that old player for several years.

Considering that Vegas had to give Pacioretty away for nothing with one year left on his contract, I think Caps will have to ride the Oshie contract out.

As a rental he'd have value but as is, nobody is touching that contract.

 

[Brian23]

To kill the CMM talk for a bit, someone bring up Trotz wanting to come back to coaching has me thinking. I've been one that has harped hard that Trotz was awful his last year here (shouldn't have gotten 2018 to be fair, but that ended well so ehh...) and that letting him walk was a good thing however I do wonder if a reunion would be a good thing for the franchise.

Trotz isn't great at developing forwards, but I'm more thinking in giving the team a sustained identity and giving them something to lean on as father time saps their talent. He's great at taking less talented teams and making them sound and competitive teams. At his best, with teams that lack top end talent like we might be heading towards, I feel like he could possibly be a good option. Maybe he even turns Fehervary and maybe AA into absolute studs on the backside.

Considering that Vegas had to give Pacioretty away for nothing with one year left on his contract, I think Caps will have to ride the Oshie contract out.

As a rental he'd have value but as is, nobody is touching that contract.

Wasn't that entirely because Vegas is in cap hell?

 

[Misery74]

Imagine if they could land Bedard..,

We look lottery bound, and we have the coaching staff to get us there.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Lol, no, you said you were positive he was probably utilized at wing the same way and I told you to prove it.

Only thing I found would suggest that Briere played a lot more under center in his age 21 season than McMichael did, through sheer faceoff use alone. I know exactly who I’m dealing with, the same guy that goes looking for the ejector seat just like this every single time anyone backs themselves up with something you weren’t ready for.

Any time you’re willing to engage with the content I’m waiting.

If you want to “engage with the content“, my exact quote was this:

“I’m sure Danny Briere when he was busting his ass to crack the NHL took a few damn shifts at wing and didn’t regularly look average at best.”

I didn’t say shit about “the same way” or any other fluff you want to spin.

So yeah, I’m sticking with that belief that somewhere on his way to cracking the Sabres lineup, he played some shifts at wing. You can prove me wrong or move on. I don’t care. Keep trying to make it personal….makes me giggle.

 

[traparatus]

Wasn't that entirely because Vegas is in cap hell?

That's part of it, sure. Still, Pacioretty is a highly effective point per game player that no team in the league was willing to trade any assets for because of his cap hit and injury history. Oshie is 35, has two more years on his contract with some trade protection and can't stay healthy. The recent string of injuries are originating from nothing plays, too.

I'm not saying that Caps wouldn't be able to give him away but I can't envision getting anything back. It doesn't help that Oshie's contract is not structured in a way that would make it attractive to budget teams. The salary doesn't drop much at all.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

That's part of it, sure. Still, Pacioretty is a highly effective point per game player that no team in the league was willing to trade any assets for because of his cap hit and injury history. Oshie is 35, has two more years on his contract with some trade protection and can't stay healthy. The recent string of injuries are originating from nothing plays, too.

I'm not saying that Caps wouldn't be able to give him away but I can't envision getting anything back. It doesn't help that Oshie's contract is not structured in a way that would make it attractive to budget teams. The salary doesn't drop much at all.

Interesting his trade protection expires at the end of this league year it appears…

• 2017-20: 15 team no trade list
• 2021-23: 10 team no trade list

or at least there are no details beyond then. Capfriendly shows it to 2025, so maybe an error on Spotrac.

 

[twabby]

Interesting his trade protection expires at the end of this league year it appears…

• 2017-20: 15 team no trade list
• 2021-23: 10 team no trade list

or at least there are no details beyond then. Capfriendly shows it to 2025, so maybe an error on Spotrac.

CapFriendly shows a 10 team no trade list until 2025.

Edit: n/m you found it yourself!

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

Would Seattle want Oshie?

 

[Rayquaza64]

The fact that we aren't technically in cap hell would definitely help our case, without retention it might be hard to get more than a mid round pick though, unless when he comes back he starts a heater

Would Seattle want Oshie?

We'd probably have to trade contracts with Seattle who currently has 105k in cap space, and I doubt that would be worth it

 

[ClevelandCapsfan]

Would Seattle want Oshie?

Last season; yes. No more.

 

[HTFN]

If you want to “engage with the content“, my exact quote was this:

“I’m sure Danny Briere when he was busting his ass to crack the NHL took a few damn shifts at wing and didn’t regularly look average at best.”

I didn’t say shit about “the same way” or any other fluff you want to spin.

So yeah, I’m sticking with that belief that somewhere on his way to cracking the Sabres lineup, he played some shifts at wing. You can prove me wrong or move on. I don’t care. Keep trying to make it personal….makes me giggle.

How about this for giggling: Briere was a Phoenix Coyote from 1997-8 to 2003

You can believe whatever made up shit you want, I already did what I needed to do and you're so out of touch with the actual reality you'll say, well, that instead of looking up anything to verify your position.

Unless the coaches were going out of their way to spot a ~46% faceoff man extra draws on his wing shifts, Briere played a lot more time at center in his ~700 minutes than McMichael.

What more do you think I actually need to do to prove this in your mind? Their age 21 seasons are more jarringly comparable than even I expected, so... what are you missing here besides doing any of the legwork or taking the position seriously?

 

[RedRocking]

The fact that we aren't technically in cap hell would definitely help our case, without retention it might be hard to get more than a mid round pick though, unless when he comes back he starts a heater


We'd probably have to trade contracts with Seattle who currently has 105k in cap space, and I doubt that would be worth it

I’m still of the opinion that Oshie is worth more to us than what he would fetch on the open market. His contract isn’t crippling, per se, especially since we will have a lot of cap room this offseason. And it still remains to be seen how much he can contribute this year.

The PP tends to be a mess when he is out. Wilson returning helps….but Oshie is so important with his footwork and ability to move defenders around in the bumper. We’re so lost right now - we have Mojo bumbling there, fairly useless as a lefty, and last game they even resorted to putting Ovi in the bumper. Without Oshie’s presence in the middle, PKers only have to close off Ovi’s and Carlson’s shooting lanes to stifle us.

So in terms of the way this team is built, with particular emphasis on 895 (where Ovi needs an effective PP unit), I just assume keep him, rather than get some middling draft pick back.

Moreover, he’s a great locker room leader and was our best playoff performer last year - so when healthy he still has particular value for this old, decrepit team.

 

[trick9]

I’m still of the opinion that Oshie is worth more to us than what he would fetch on the open market. His contract isn’t crippling, per se, especially since we will have a lot of cap room this offseason. And it still remains to be seen how much he can contribute this year.

The PP tends to be a mess when he is out. Wilson returning helps….but Oshie is so important with his footwork and ability to move defenders around in the bumper. We’re so lost right now - we have Mojo bumbling there, fairly useless as a lefty, and last game they even resorted to putting Ovi in the bumper. Without Oshie’s presence in the middle, PKers only have to close off Ovi’s and Carlson’s shooting lanes to stifle us.

So in terms of the way this team is built, with particular emphasis on 895 (where Ovi needs an effective PP unit), I just assume keep him, rather than get some middling draft pick back.

Moreover, he’s a great locker room leader and was our best playoff performer last year - so when healthy he still has particular value for this old, decrepit team.

That's fair, for his flaws he's still a pretty good player and a good role model to have around. I'm right in between with him. Guys like him are good to have even though you are rebuilding, to avoid the Sabres -trap, where team gets just a little bit too comfortable losing on purpose. Oshie is a good pro to have around and he's still a good shooter. He's the kind of guy that make it tougher for teams to shadow Ovechkin on the PP too. In terms of trade value i don't think he fetches back anything useful. Best-case scenario is propably trading him for cap dump with less term + pick. Even that might very well be something that GM's don't want to do. I don't think having Oshie at that salary is a problem for this season and next (unless we somehow get Bedard) because i find it hard to believe we would be contending for Cup either way. The last year on the contract i don't really like. It sort of comes down to how badly you want to get that contract off the books because you'll likely lose that trade either way.