Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2022-23 Season Part 3: Drop the puck!

[HTFN]

So it's all the same argument: play the young guys

play the young guys because why? Because it's just a fun cool thing to do?

Most of us would still very obviously prefer to root for a winning, contending hockey team. What motivation could we have, or believe the organization would have, to play young players that would possibly line up with that preference?

Could it maybe, possibly be because some of us think they're more likely to win more games that way over the next year or two?

Nobody on the other side of this discussion is giving many reasons that don't ultimately amount to "Laviolette is doing it so it must be for a reason and the reason is ___ is not ready" but when you ask someone why, say, Siegenthaler wasn't ready for the 3rd pairing minutes Chara got without fail you get crickets. When you ask what part of the game is keeping Hagelin on the ice last year with the team down a f***ing goal while they sit their younger offensive talents you get crickets.

That's not "blah blah play the young guys", that's holding the other side of this argument accountable for the things they say are at play. If it makes sense it should be easy to make sense of, but it isn't and appealing to authority with zero tangible evidence isn't cutting it.

 

[PlushMinus]

As for my own thoughts and opinions (I do have them from time to time lol), I think this is a very difficult team to coach. The veterans like Ovie, Kuznetsov, Oshie and Carlson have been playing together for so long that it's likely almost impossible to teach them to play differently. All you can do is try to motivate them to play to the best of their ability, knowing that when they do magic can and will happen. But we can see that laziness and lack of motivation regularly on the ice, this season and seasons past.

Then you have the difficulty of bringing in several new players to "solve" the problems of the previous 1st round exit (year after year), and you have to try and fit these guys to a line where they can develop chemistry with the veteran group. I have seen very little evidence over the last 2-3 seasons of genuine chemistry on any of the lines (happy to be corrected), other than the 4th line, which was fantastic when Hagelin was playing and continues to be pretty damn good without him. And of course the Ovie, Kuzy, Wilson line is capable of great things when the mindset is there.

I agree with others who have said let's try Ovie, Kuzy, Mantha. Lavi has tried other combinations but barely looked at this one. Can't hurt to give it a shot. I get that coaches like to spread their offence over 2 (and if possible 3) lines, but if you can create one line capable of scoring 2+ 5v5 goals per game then why not try?
Maybe the reason Lavi hasn't used that line is because it would be very high risk defensively. You'd need your best d-pairing on the ice at the same time.

 

[g00n]

play the young guys because why? Because it's just a fun cool thing to do?

Most of us would still very obviously prefer to root for a winning, contending hockey team. What motivation could we have, or believe the organization would have, to play young players that would possibly line up with that preference?

Could it maybe, possibly be because some of us think they're more likely to win more games that way over the next year or two?

Yes, some people think that. Others don't, including the coaches. That's where the disagreement lies. I'd like to see the young guys play but I'm not going to whine about it every single day and pretend it's this huge issue that's dooming the franchise.

And who are we talking about here other than CMM?? What other guys in the pipeline are going to tip the scales from "this team is old slow and shitty" to "hooo boy here comes the cup!"

Aren't the same people whinging constantly about CMM the same ones lamenting Feverbaby's lack of seasoning?

Also regarding the complaints about Siegs and Stephenson, drafting, player dev, etc, again this is mostly confirmation bias. We've done this before:

League News: - NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) - 2021-2 Regular Season Edition, Vol. 2

Colorado loss to Vancouver reminds me of some caps losses this year.

forums.hfboards.com

League News: - NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) - 2021-2 Regular Season Edition, Vol. 2

I recall I wanted Larkin with the caps pick :(. As did I.

forums.hfboards.com

League News: - NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) - 2021-2 Regular Season Edition, Vol. 2

I recall I wanted Larkin with the caps pick :(. As did I.

forums.hfboards.com

 

[AlexModvechkin8]

 

[RedRocking]

Just to play devil's advocate. Consider, for example, Red Wings. If you were to ask their fan base how they feel about the stretch of time between 2013 and 2019, they will overwhelmingly respond that it was a colossal and tedious waste of time. It's so bad that Ken Holland, who achieved so much at the helm of this franchise, is regarded with mixed feelings at best.

Personally, I've never found much joy in seen the team stuck in the mushy middle.

Oh totally, I agree it’s probably not the best recipe for longer term success to just tread water and not bottom out for a while.

For me, it’s just recognizing the situation for what it is, and the forces driving a lot of the short term thinking by management - and understanding their POV (as much I can from their words and actions).

I get being frustrated with things, I didn’t mean to pretend that I don’t at times. And I understand people that have issues and want to voice them.

I was just explaining how I can make peace with (what appears to be) their plan for now, and try to enjoy the last few years with this accomplished core.

Who knows what the future holds - this offseason will be very telling and interesting.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Since nobody here has access to management or inside information, then everything here is opinion and speculation. On that basis I agree with Langway's opinion, so yes, I'm "sure" I agree with his post.

Lots of generalities in it but ok…

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

It's a difficult situation. How much can a team achieve without an elite center, preferably backed up by another elite center? Most pundits say, not much at all.

Then there is the issue of accountability, drive and attention to detail. For example, Carlson has been abysmal for the last number of playoffs. He was dreadful last year. After a long offseason to self reflect and hopefully better himself, he showed up this year in full slug mode. Coaching staff has no response to it. There are no consequences. This team doesn't have anywhere near the talent level to be able to mask this.

What “consequences” are you envisioning lol? They can’t bench him. They have nobody to eat those all situation minutes.

 

[HTFN]

Yes, some people think that. Others don't, including the coaches. That's where the disagreement lies. I'd like to see the young guys play but I'm not going to whine about it every single day and pretend it's this huge issue that's dooming the franchise.

And who are we talking about here other than CMM?? What other guys in the pipeline are going to tip the scales from "this team is old slow and shitty" to "hooo boy here comes the cup!"

Aren't the same people whinging constantly about CMM the same ones lamenting Feverbaby's lack of seasoning?

Also regarding the complaints about Siegs and Stephenson, drafting, player dev, etc, again this is mostly confirmation bias. We've done this before:

League News: - NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) - 2021-2 Regular Season Edition, Vol. 2

Colorado loss to Vancouver reminds me of some caps losses this year.

forums.hfboards.com

League News: - NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) - 2021-2 Regular Season Edition, Vol. 2

I recall I wanted Larkin with the caps pick :(. As did I.

forums.hfboards.com

League News: - NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) - 2021-2 Regular Season Edition, Vol. 2

I recall I wanted Larkin with the caps pick :(. As did I.

forums.hfboards.com

???

We spent, like, a lot of last season saying things like "hey remember October/November when AJF and Protas were playing and they were winning games". Yeah, CMM is in that group and I'm not going to pretend he's not, but you can't really pretend this is the CMM brigade either because it was and always has been as simple as "these rookies were showing up regularly better than the healthy veterans they would eventually be replaced by, so what the hell?"

What “consequences” are you envisioning lol? They can’t bench him. They have nobody to eat those all situation minutes.

Some might say that risking 2 points is worth it to wake up a player who could cost you 10 if left to his own devices. An injury can easily take that off the table anyway in the grand scheme of things so, again, maybe for once play to win instead of not to lose in the long term and do something for the health of the franchise that goes beyond the 2 points directly in front of them?

 

[g00n]

play the young guys because why? Because it's just a fun cool thing to do?

Most of us would still very obviously prefer to root for a winning, contending hockey team. What motivation could we have, or believe the organization would have, to play young players that would possibly line up with that preference?

Could it maybe, possibly be because some of us think they're more likely to win more games that way over the next year or two?

Nobody on the other side of this discussion is giving many reasons that don't ultimately amount to "Laviolette is doing it so it must be for a reason and the reason is ___ is not ready" but when you ask someone why, say, Siegenthaler wasn't ready for the 3rd pairing minutes Chara got without fail you get crickets. When you ask what part of the game is keeping Hagelin on the ice last year with the team down a f***ing goal while they sit their younger offensive talents you get crickets.

That's not "blah blah play the young guys", that's holding the other side of this argument accountable for the things they say are at play. If it makes sense it should be easy to make sense of, but it isn't and appealing to authority with zero tangible evidence isn't cutting it.

That's not true at all (your edit re: the last 2 paragraphs). Plenty of reasons were given at the time and it's a bit unfair to try and dredge that old shit up now when we can't really go back and look at it. Especially since most of it wrt Hagelin came from Tex and he's not here to defend himself.

But I will say that wrt Siegenthaler he didn't look all that great to me when he was here and had issues with his skating. I said so at the time and in general wished him well. I don't recall a shitload of bitching about the trade and in fact many here complaining about player development and asset management were in praise of it.

Confirmed with Link: - Siegenthaler to NJ for 2021 3rd Rounder (Arizona pick)

forums.hfboards.com

So it's monday morning quarterbacking and 20/20 hindsight based on JS turning the corner in a new location, which is not uncommon.

Regarding Hagelin, I've said before that Lavi probably feared giving up more goals due to shitty defense and shitty goaltending, which makes a 1-2 goal comeback even harder. That's why he still played the 4th line a lot when trailing late in the game. Shitcanning the entire Goalie corps suggests that was true, and it was not a mirage phenomenon wrt late goaltending woes per the graphic someone posted here recently.

???

We spent, like, a lot of last season saying things like "hey remember October/November when AJF and Protas were playing and they were winning games". Yeah, CMM is in that group and I'm not going to pretend he's not, but you can't really pretend this is the CMM brigade either because it was and always has been as simple as "these rookies were showing up regularly better than the healthy veterans they would eventually be replaced by, so what the hell?"


Some might say that risking 2 points is worth it to wake up a player who could cost you 10 if left to his own devices. An injury can easily take that off the table anyway in the grand scheme of things so, again, maybe for once play to win instead of not to lose in the long term and do something for the health of the franchise that goes beyond the 2 points directly in front of them?

Weren't Ovie and Kuzy on fire early last season? I think attributing the early winning just to playing the young guys and NB being out is a bit of confirmation bias.

 

[HTFN]

That's not true at all (your edit re: the last 2 paragraphs). Plenty of reasons were given at the time and it's a bit unfair to try and dredge that old shit up now when we can't really go back and look at it. Especially since most of it wrt Hagelin came from Tex and he's not here to defend himself.

But I will say that wrt Siegenthaler he didn't look all that great to me when he was here and had issues with his skating. I said so at the time and in general wished him well. I don't recall a shitload of bitching about the trade and in fact many here complaining about player development and asset management were in praise of it.

Confirmed with Link: - Siegenthaler to NJ for 2021 3rd Rounder (Arizona pick)

forums.hfboards.com

So it's monday morning quarterbacking and 20/20 hindsight based on JS turning the corner in a new location, which is not uncommon.

Regarding Hagelin, I've said before that Lavi probably feared giving up more goals due to shitty defense and shitty goaltending, which makes a 1-2 goal comeback even harder. That's why he still played the 4th line a lot when trailing late in the game. Shitcanning the entire Goalie corps suggests that was true, and it was not a mirage phenomenon wrt late goaltending woes per the graphic someone posted here recently.

I'm not going to sit here and say I thought Siegenthaler was the second coming but he's also not the only data point.

You can also call it a benefit of hindsight all you want but that actually, you know, matters. You can't ever talk about asset mismanagement without the benefit of hindsight because the whole thing is about failing to recognize, develop, and utilize potential. The Capitals were more comfortable asking an oooold franchise figurehead of another team to come over and stave off time (like, imagine the Capitals cutting Ovechkin loose while he still wanted to play in the NHL and how we'd view the team getting him if he's that cooked) instead of asking a young defenseman to improve his footwork. That's a problem.

It kind of is true. They looked for reasons that made sense and found plenty, but it's becoming pretty clear that those were... not correct. So where are we?

 

[HTFN]

Weren't Ovie and Kuzy on fire early last season? I think attributing the early winning just to playing the young guys and NB being out is a bit of confirmation bias.

It's a 60 minute game, the Capitals weren't getting shelled or pushed in except for herculean efforts from their tippy top guys. They were rolling lines because they had to and by and large keeping up in a way the "ideal" version of the team couldn't seem to do later. The contrast was stark and apparent, and no adjustment was made. Young legs were keeping up, making mistakes, making up for those mistakes, overperforming in moments, etc.

It's the hallmarks of development except the Capitals tried to stuff it all back in the bottle and didn't take advantage

 

[g00n]

I'm not going to sit here and say I thought Siegenthaler was the second coming but he's also not the only data point.

You can also call it a benefit of hindsight all you want but that actually, you know, matters. You can't ever talk about asset mismanagement without the benefit of hindsight because the whole thing is about failing to recognize, develop, and utilize potential. The Capitals were more comfortable asking an oooold franchise figurehead of another team to come over and stave off time (like, imagine the Capitals cutting Ovechkin loose while he still wanted to play in the NHL and how we'd view the team getting him if he's that cooked) instead of asking a young defenseman to improve his footwork. That's a problem.

It kind of is true. They looked for reasons that made sense and found plenty, but it's becoming pretty clear that those were... not correct. So where are we?

It was also a cap space issue, iirc. And they didn't know Chara was that spent. So that's kind of a mistake, I guess.

Fire everyone?

 

[HTFN]

It was also a cap space issue, iirc. And they didn't know Chara was that spent. So that's kind of a mistake, I guess.

Fire everyone?

Kind of exactly the point. Time and time again they bite on what other players could be (based on what they used to be) because they don't ever trust their internal options enough to give them any runway to get better. Then they turn their own guys out to pasture, either in free agency to quickly wash out and retire once touched by another NHL franchise or traded due to cap issues because they'd rather run with the safe controllable option than... be forced into a tough decision by actually having a good player, I guess.

 

[g00n]

Kind of exactly the point. Time and time again they bite on what other players could be (based on what they used to be) because they don't ever trust their internal options enough to give them any runway to get better. Then they turn their own guys out to pasture, either in free agency to quickly wash out and retire once touched by another NHL franchise or traded due to cap issues because they'd rather run with the safe controllable option than... be forced into a tough decision by actually having a good player, I guess.

Other than Chara and maybe Panik who else are you talking about here under GMBM?

 

[HTFN]

Other than Chara and maybe Panik who else are you talking about here under GMBM?

So like, other than the best options? Hagelin over AJF for large portions of last year, Eller over CMM literally right now, I think it's reasonable to say they should have done more to carve a role out for Vrana and never did to the point that Mantha/Vrana can be on this list even if they both didn't occupy the roster at the same time.

Matt Irwin's permanent untouched spot on the depth chart is also questionable, citing the exact same rationale Laviolette uses to justify CMM sitting during games and playing in practice as "valuable". They don't leave room for young players to make and learn from their mistakes. Just make them occasionally and then see the bench for an extended stretch. It's bad development philosophy plain and simple and the only thing it's ever going to create is bland middle of the road swiss army forwards and a handful of supremely talented but ultimately frustrated or borderline broken offensive prospects.

They're literally trying to be the 2010-2020 Nashville Predators at this point

 

[g00n]

So like, other than the best options? Hagelin over AJF for large portions of last year, Eller over CMM literally right now, I think it's reasonable to say they should have done more to carve a role out for Vrana and never did to the point that Mantha/Vrana can be on this list even if they both didn't occupy the roster at the same time.

Matt Irwin's permanent untouched spot on the depth chart is also questionable, citing the exact same rationale Laviolette uses to justify CMM sitting during games and playing in practice as "valuable". They don't leave room for young players to make and learn from their mistakes. Just make them occasionally and then see the bench for an extended stretch. It's bad development philosophy plain and simple and the only thing it's ever going to create is bland middle of the road swiss army forwards and a handful of supremely talented but ultimately frustrated or borderline broken offensive prospects.

They're literally trying to be the 2010-2020 Nashville Predators at this point

No you're talking about TOI. We were just talking about the franchise as a whole making player acquisition decisions. So now we can agree GMBM has generally made good moves? Enough that a Panik or Chara here and there are not grounds for a freak out and "Fire GMBM" campaign?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Don‘t mean to be cold, but it sure as shit looks like moving on from Vrana was the right move.

The rest of the complaint seem centered around a couple of bottom-6 spots for marginal NHLers………and of course CMM…..always comes back to him.

 

[HTFN]

Don‘t mean to be cold, but it sure as shit looks like moving on from Vrana was the right move.

The rest of the complaint seem centered around a couple of bottom-6 spots for marginal NHLers………and of course CMM…..always comes back to him.

why would it not come back to the most infrequently used, more recent 1st round pick that languishes on the depth chart even when the team is losing and in need of a spark? boo f***ing hoo, so sorry it's a primary problem

bitch and moan about that all you want but I'm not really listening until you have anything to say but "he must not be ready but he will be".

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

why would it not come back to the most infrequently used, more recent 1st round pick that languishes on the depth chart even when the team is losing and in need of a spark? boo f***ing hoo, so sorry it's a primary problem

bitch and moan about that all you want but I'm not really listening until you have anything to say but "he must not be ready but he will be".

Bitch and moan..lol…what other fantasies do you make up in your head when you’re reading here?

I guess I’m not really listening to you either every time you suggest you know better than the Team and its staff.

 

[HTFN]

Bitch and moan..lol…what other fantasies do you make up in your head when you’re reading here?

Conversely I’m not really listen to you every time you suggest you know better than the Team.

Except I'm kind of not... not really. I'm not on team "NHL GM's are stupid", I'm on team "one of you people who disagree with me must be seeing something that makes sense, so what is it?" but you aren't ever getting that far. I'd f***ing love to read some post that leaves me like "oh shit, okay, that really does make sense" but it's not there. I want to see what "the Team" sees instead of just being told to trust them because they're professionals, is that really so hard?

Meanwhile there's a few of you so desperately determined to make this about one guy and complain incessantly about how much you have to hear about him as a result...

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

You are…

 

[pman25]

We’re gonna go scoreless again aren’t we…until beck malenstyn banks one in randomly. That’s the way.

Im too good at this

 

[g00n]

Except I'm kind of not... not really. I'm not on team "NHL GM's are stupid", I'm on team "one of you people who disagree with me must be seeing something that makes sense, so what is it?" but you aren't ever getting that far. I'd f***ing love to read some post that leaves me like "oh shit, okay, that really does make sense" but it's not there. I want to see what "the Team" sees instead of just being told to trust them because they're professionals, is that really so hard?

Meanwhile there's a few of you so desperately determined to make this about one guy and complain incessantly about how much you have to hear about him as a result...

Do you think my explanation of Hagelin's PT from up-thread is unreasonable?

How about my assessment off the top of my head regarding Siegenthaler, which was echoed by nearly every post in the trade thread I dug up?

Maybe people are just tired of talking about it.

 

[HTFN]

You are…

I've directly argued with twabby against that very thing. You just liked a post on it like... a handful of days ago.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I've directly argued with twabby against that very thing. You just liked a post on it like... a handful of days ago.

That you’re not on team whatever….doesn’t mean you’re not suggesting you know more in these specific Instances you’ve mentioned….you’re railing on and on how they’re wrong.

look it’s fine….so whatever. I don’t want to stifle conversation, it just gets tiresome at times.