Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2022-23 Season Part 3: Drop the puck!

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g00n

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Lavi has his favorites, let’s not pretend he doesn’t. I’m a supporter of his but his standards for some are different than with others. He clearly values guys with a certain profile. We’ve seen him be harsher on guys like Vrana, McMike, Sprong, and Mantha than he is on the Ellers and Hagelins. He doesn’t have as much patience for mistakes made by guys that play a certain style.

There’s no defensible reason for having promoted Eller to 2LW and now demoting Strome to 4LW. There’s no analytical or objective measure to merit either of those moves.

And yes, Mantha is being wrongfully benched. Even with the questions around his consistency of effort he’s still one of their best two way forwards and he’s certainly more valuable to the team than some guys whose lineup spots seem to be etched in stone. I don’t see how anyone could argue that Lavi doesn’t play favorites.

It's possible that "certain style" is not doing what the coach and the rest of the team are doing. If that's the case it's not "playing favorites" it's good coaching.

Any coach that lets cherrypickers or goldbrickers get away with it loses the room and can't get everyone else to buy in. If those players you named have had any history of that then all this talk about unjustified favoritism goes out the window.

Not to mention this is professional hockey at the highest level. If you want a job then make yourself indispensable, and obviously so. Crying about PT is for losers and lower tiers.

Earn your paycheck. Do the job the boss wants. It's not a developmental league.
 

AlexModvechkin8

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It's possible that "certain style" is not doing what the coach and the rest of the team are doing. If that's the case it's not "playing favorites" it's good coaching.

Any coach that lets cherrypickers or goldbrickers get away with it loses the room and can't get everyone else to buy in. If those players you named have had any history of that then all this talk about unjustified favoritism goes out the window.

Not to mention this is professional hockey at the highest level. If you want a job then make yourself indispensable, and obviously so. Crying about PT is for losers and lower tiers.

Earn your paycheck. Do the job the boss wants. It's not a developmental league.
They did earn their paychecks, just maybe not in the exact manner the boss wanted. All of those guys mentioned were at the top of the rankings in production for this team. Sprong and Vrana have been or were at the top of the league in 5-on-5 goal rates for multiple years. Mantha has some of the best production metrics on the team and is one of their best defensive forwards. McMichael had bad luck but made plays happen when he was on the ice and his deployments under Lavi were a joke. They have their warts too but most players do and Lavi dislikes their faults more than he dislikes the faults of others. That’s his prerogative as coach but he has very rigid standards for how a player should play in specific roles and it’s to the detriment of the team that he’s as inflexible as he is.

He has a lowsy track record with young forwards throughout the entirety of his career because he expects guys to play one way and if they don’t play that way he can’t deal with it.
 
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g00n

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They did earn their paychecks, just maybe not in the exact manner the boss wanted. All of those guys mentioned were at the top of the rankings in production for this team. Sprong and Vrana have been or were at the top of the league in 5-on-5 goal rates for multiple years. Mantha has some of the best production metrics on the team and is one of their best defensive forwards. McMichael had bad luck but made plays happen when he was on the ice and his deployments under Lavi were a joke. They have their warts too but most players do and Lavi dislikes their faults more than he dislikes the faults of others. That’s his prerogative as coach but he has very rigid standards for how a player should play in specific roles and it’s to the detriment of the team that he’s as inflexible as he is.

He has a lowsy track record with young forwards throughout the entirety of his career because he expects guys to play one way and if they don’t play that way he can’t deal with it.

The young forward thing is a complete myth started by NSH fans based on one player (Fiala) and nothing else. People here just picked it up and ran with it based on their own confirmation biases.

"Metrics" are in the eye of the coach who tells the players what job to perform. It's his team and someone calculating xWhatever isn't in charge or in the locker room.
 

g00n

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I'll give a sales analogy.

If I have a salesman who generates a lot of leads and has apparent potential but doesn't close as much as he could, that might look good to someone comparing those leads totals to coworkers, but let's say I need my staff to focus on certain regions and clients, and to close deals above a set price point. I have a very specific set of requirements to fit the overall global strategy and we need full buy-in.

Let's say the leads hero also doesn't see the need to follow some of the boss' directions, and isn't making calls or conducting follow-up as requested, and/or is being lazy about the sales channels or territories he's responsible for.

The guy with a ton of leads for small, low % opportunities might have a big pipeline but ultimately few real prospects or deals, and will fall short of the goals we've set.

What message does it send to the rest of the sales team--who I need to be putting in at least the minimum effort in the right markets-- if I keep letting this guy shirk his duties, just because he has "potential"?

So the leads and potential aren't all that valuable by comparison to salesmen who are putting their focus where I need it, even if they're also closing at a similar rate.

What I'm hearing here with Mantha is the equivalent of "the answer is to fire the sales manager because lead generation and potential are more important than anything else".
 

g00n

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Seems like nothing more than experimentation as a result of 3 "core" forwards coming back within a few games of each other. I wouldn't reach much else into it wrt Strome. Just as much chance Eller ends up 4LW and Strome goes back up to 1C or 2C eventually.
 

pman25

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I’m guessing Lavi gets to the lineup most of us are proposing in like 10 more games. Or injuries just solve it anyway.

Of course watch this team trade away Strome to fit in Hagelin if he returns lol
 

crab

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Jan 26, 2019
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Strome out is an awful decision and really has to affect the players morale. How on earth does Eller get a jersey over Strome. Lavi’s lineup decisions are awful.
 

Jags

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I'll give a sales analogy.

If I have a salesman who generates a lot of leads and has apparent potential but doesn't close as much as he could, that might look good to someone comparing those leads totals to coworkers, but let's say I need my staff to focus on certain regions and clients, and to close deals above a set price point. I have a very specific set of requirements to fit the overall global strategy and we need full buy-in.

Let's say the leads hero also doesn't see the need to follow some of the boss' directions, and isn't making calls or conducting follow-up as requested, and/or is being lazy about the sales channels or territories he's responsible for.

The guy with a ton of leads for small, low % opportunities might have a big pipeline but ultimately few real prospects or deals, and will fall short of the goals we've set.

What message does it send to the rest of the sales team--who I need to be putting in at least the minimum effort in the right markets-- if I keep letting this guy shirk his duties, just because he has "potential"?

So the leads and potential aren't all that valuable by comparison to salesmen who are putting their focus where I need it, even if they're also closing at a similar rate.

What I'm hearing here with Mantha is the equivalent of "the answer is to fire the sales manager because lead generation and potential are more important than anything else".

Wow, you're burning a lot of calories defending something with no more evidence than the people you're arguing with. The "We don't know so trust the process" argument would be more compelling if we weren't playing like shit.

I'll give a hockey analogy.

If I have a hockey player that generates the exact kind of results any reasonable person should expect from his deployments and punish him for it, I might be wrong to do so.

I'll give another hockey analogy.

If I have a hockey player that demonstrates no chemistry with any linemates and appears to torpedo the lines he's on as a result but bench a string of other, better players instead of him, I'm might be wrong to do so.

I'll give another hockey analogy,.

If I have a hockey team that goes unbeaten for like 15 games and break up the forward lines most responsible for that success for no reason and the team immediately starts playing like they're having spastic fits, I might be wrong to do so.

The two shuffles before this sucked out loud. The 4th line was the only one doing anything good. So the latest shuffle appears to be another key player to the bench and breaking up the only like working. Instead of, you know, maybe going back to the lines that had you on a 15-game points streak.

Super tight division race, we can't spare any points, and he's throwing away the easy ones.

Absence of inside knowledge doesn't preclude one from analyzing the evidence there is and justifiably asking, "WTactualF?"
 

g00n

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Nov 22, 2007
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Wow, you're burning a lot of calories defending something with no more evidence than the people you're arguing with. The "We don't know so trust the process" argument would be more compelling if we weren't playing like shit.

I'll give a hockey analogy.

If I have a hockey player that generates the exact kind of results any reasonable person should expect from his deployments and punish him for it, I might be wrong to do so.

I'll give another hockey analogy.

If I have a hockey player that demonstrates no chemistry with any linemates and appears to torpedo the lines he's on as a result but bench a string of other, better players instead of him, I'm might be wrong to do so.

I'll give another hockey analogy,.

If I have a hockey team that goes unbeaten for like 15 games and break up the forward lines most responsible for that success for no reason and the team immediately starts playing like they're having spastic fits, I might be wrong to do so.

The two shuffles before this sucked out loud. The 4th line was the only one doing anything good. So the latest shuffle appears to be another key player to the bench and breaking up the only like working. Instead of, you know, maybe going back to the lines that had you on a 15-game points streak.

Super tight division race, we can't spare any points, and he's throwing away the easy ones.

Absence of inside knowledge doesn't preclude one from analyzing the evidence there is and justifiably asking, "WTactualF?"

My evidence right now is the chicken little nature of this board compared to what actually ends up happening.


This is basically the same article I posted earlier, only less informative.
 

DWGie26

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I honestly don’t understand these lines/moves. But i do think Lavi has some rationale and a plan. I don’t think any of this is long term lineups but he is looking to see who will step up their play.

With Strome, I *think* there may be two things at play. First is anyone can sit, and he has that luxury. Second is, he may just want to have 4 centers in the lineup. Eller is his guy, and he isn’t going to sit Kuzy, Backstrom or Dowd (yet).

Sounds like it may be this up front. Standard dee pairs with Irwin and Fever as third pair.
OV-Kuzy-Sheary
Milano-Backstrom-Wilson
Mantha-Dowd-Oshie
Johanson-Eller-Hathaway

It’s not that crazy of a lineup.
 

SecretaryofDefense5

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Mar 20, 2022
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I honestly don’t understand these lines/moves. But i do think Lavi has some rationale and a plan. I don’t think any of this is long term lineups but he is looking to see who will step up their play.

With Strome, I *think* there may be two things at play. First is anyone can sit, and he has that luxury. Second is, he may just want to have 4 centers in the lineup. Eller is his guy, and he isn’t going to sit Kuzy, Backstrom or Dowd (yet).

Sounds like it may be this up front. Standard dee pairs with Irwin and Fever as third pair.
OV-Kuzy-Sheary
Milano-Backstrom-Wilson
Mantha-Dowd-Oshie
Johanson-Eller-Hathaway

It’s not that crazy of a lineup.
But it is. In what world should Eller be playing over Strome?

BMac needs to step in to trade Eller if only to prevent Lavi from hurting the team.
 

Jags

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My evidence right now is the chicken little nature of this board compared to what actually ends up happening.

Yeah, that's not evidence. That's people speculating in a forum thread that is literally titled "Speculation."

And your basis is what "ends up happening"? He made shitty changes, and what ended up happening is a team playing really well immediately started playing shitty.

So if your argument is that the team eventually figuring out how to play well again excuses the stretch that we sucked for no reason, that's pretty thin. We hire coaches to minimize those stretches, not create them.

Look, I'm not in the "Lavi must be fired" camp. It's early for that. But this string of decisions is baffling, and your blind defense of him with no evidence and appearances heavily suggesting otherwise is curious.

Like I said over and over in my last post, he might be wrong. And if you allow for that possibility at all, then your crabby and relentless defense wouldn't need to be so crabby and relentless.
 

DWGie26

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But it is. In what world should Eller be playing over Strome?

BMac needs to step in to trade Eller if only to prevent Lavi from hurting the team.
Can’t trade Eller until we see 10-15 games from Backstrom and see how is he doing both health wise and play. It takes some games. I can’t explain the Eller love but clearly it is there. Just like the Irwin love. This isn’t isolated to Lavi. All coaches have favorites and “their guy” they lean on. Eller is clearly that guy for Lavi. So you can want Eller traded, but you aren’t going to get it.
 
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