OT: Capitals Cinema Club: TV and Movies

[HTFN]

This is taking an annoying amount of time to get exciting. Really, there's a little too much Star Wars jibber, I can't honestly think somebody fresh to the series wouldn't mostly just be bored after the first two episodes. I'm hanging on but this isn't screaming "amazing television" on par with some of the decade's best yet.

Although for the first time in Star Wars history I get to say thank god for episode 3.

 

[Jags]

Not all world-building has to be the GRRM-style of "we're gonna have a million factions and a million characters and elaborate spelled out histories for each."

I'm not saying it has to be that. I'm saying that the "world" of the films never felt as big to me as they wanted it to. This was a gifted director and novice writer taking the "Show, don't tell" rule a little too seriously. Yes, I agree it gets worse beyond the OT instead of getting better.

It's an excellent example of world building. It makes the universe feel lived in and shows the viewer the wide array

100% agree. This is the sign of a great director with a vision telling a story visually. But so much of the rest of the crafting of the OT's story was clumsy. This is why I feel pretty strongly that ANH is the best movie they ever made. The writing of the last two films just wasn't as good. And as you said, the more power he achieved and money he made for the powers that be, the less they reined him in. And maybe that's why Jedi pales in comparison to the first two (or at least one of the bigger reasons).

Despite Lucas' myth-building, Star Wars didn't actually start out as a pre-planned Episode IV. The EpIv and "A New Hope" tags were added in 1981.

I've not seen these movies as many times as you have. I saw the OT as a kid then I didn't see them again for like 20+ years. You couldn't rent them during the early years of the VHS craze, as I recall.

I saw the first prequel in theaters and hated it, so I skipped the others and watched all 6 years later while recovering from knee surgery. I saw the 5 new ones as they were released on video.

Return of the Jedi was so disappointing to me as a kid that I never had a chance to fall in love with the franchise the way you clearly did. Rewatching them all dispassionately as an adult with so much more to compare it to? Groundbreaking for sure in the context of cinematic history, and it deserves a lot of credit for that. But watch the 9 chapters in narrative order and tell me it's worth being the obsession it is for so many people.

That youthful passion imbues the OT with more rose-colored love than it deserves, in my opinion. I think the OT had to find you at the right time in your life, and I clearly missed that sweet spot by a couple years.

 

[Hivemind]

@HTFN @Ovechkins Wodka

You'll discover that Andor is composed of (mostly) 3 episode arcs. I think it's fortunate that they released all 3 of the first episodes simultaneously when they did, or else more people might have been turned off without have any payoff for 3 weeks.

 

[HTFN]

@HTFN @Ovechkins Wodka

You'll discover that Andor is composed of (mostly) 3 episode arcs. I think it's fortunate that they released all 3 of the first episodes simultaneously when they did, or else more people might have been turned off without have any payoff for 3 weeks.

I thought about it for a second after my post and figured that had to be how it went, because holy shit the first two episodes just have no hook or flow without treating them like acts. Normally I guess you'd say "well they're episodes" but episodes meant to air week to week still have arcs within themselves and Andor starts kind of flat while it's setting the pieces up.

Like, there's nothing in the first two that even touches pushing a kid out a window. Meant to binge, it pulls itself together. If you don't have the time for it, you might not get to the first real hook.

one thing that really bugs me is how many more speaking computers/robots there are in a timeframe we should know. Like, yeah, there's C3PO but he's literally a language/translator/hospitality/whatever the f*** droid and possibly the only one over the two trilogies the series draws from (by default) that talks outside of... like... General Grievous? Meanwhile in Andor we've got at least one R2D2/C3PO hybrid and at least one more talking navigation system Stellan Skarsgard uses.

 

[Hivemind]

one thing that really bugs me is how many more speaking computers/robots there are in a timeframe we should know. Like, yeah, there's C3PO but he's literally a language/translator/hospitality/whatever the f*** droid and possibly the only one over the two trilogies the series draws from (by default) that talks outside of... like... General Grievous? Meanwhile in Andor we've got at least one R2D2/C3PO hybrid and at least one more talking navigation system Stellan Skarsgard uses.

Grievous isn't even a droid. He's basically the same situation as Vader, with a mostly cyborg body after injuries.

But there's quite a few other speaking droids out there. The B1 battle droids from the prequels (and frequently used as comic relief in basically all Star Wars media since then). Huyang from Clone Wars & Ahsoka. K2-SO from you're favorite movie, Rogue One. L3-37 from Solo. IG-11 from the Mandalorian.

 

[HTFN]

Grievous isn't even a droid. He's basically the same situation as Vader, with a mostly cyborg body after injuries.

But there's quite a few other speaking droids out there. The B1 battle droids from the prequels (and frequently used as comic relief in basically all Star Wars media since then). Huyang from Clone Wars & Ahsoka. K2-SO from you're favorite movie, Rogue One. L3-37 from Solo. IG-11 from the Mandalorian.

good points, I kind of remembered Grievous being bio based but figured whatever. The battle droids I just totally forgot about. K2-So, man, I kind of intentionally purged her from my memory because they basically locked that droid into permanent hell for her. Solo I never watched because I'm sick of prequel tie-ins and it looked like absolute ass.

All of these examples coming way after the Original Trilogy in release date but also mostly preceding it in chronology kind of pokes at my original point, it's annoying to see how they treat the universe's technology to it into these stories. If you want to get advanced and take the Star Wars universe into other sci-fi directions, be brave enough to examine the future of the universe and not tuck all this anachronistic stuff into a timeline that should have worked.

I'll take it back, I guess my beef isn't them existing but that they're not way more prevalent. All of that understanding R2D2's beeps and boops becomes somehow more and less charming when you realize the droid could just say stuff if programmed different. The world getting less and less technologically advanced is a real problem without an inbuilt reason for it.

I also just... don't like knowing the main character will live. Yeah, I know in self-titled shows you can always nearly expect it but prequel series don't always do it for me, because... where's the risk? I know he's healthy and fine in Rogue One, I don't need to know how he got to a backstory movie with more backstory even if it is well told.

Wish the well told stuff was centered around new people.

 

[Hivemind]

good points, I kind of remembered Grievous being bio based but figured whatever. The battle droids I just totally forgot about.

I'll take it back, I guess my beef isn't them existing but that they're not way more prevalent. All of that understanding R2D2's beeps and boops becomes somehow more and less charming when you realize the droid could just say stuff if programmed different.

Just wait until you meet Chopper (originally from Rebels, but now in Ahsoka as well). His beeps in Ahsoka are basically just English fed thru a beep filter. He also has probably killed more people than anyone else in Star Wars, short of the triggerman on the Death Star.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

This is taking an annoying amount of time to get exciting. Really, there's a little too much Star Wars jibber, I can't honestly think somebody fresh to the series wouldn't mostly just be bored after the first two episodes. I'm hanging on but this isn't screaming "amazing television" on par with some of the decade's best yet.

Although for the first time in Star Wars history I get to say thank god for episode 3.

If that’s the absurd expectation someone put in your head just quit. It’s good for syfy.

 

[ChaosLord]

Re - George Lucas
Don't mistake my defense of the original trilogy as a claim that Lucas is a brilliant writer or a genius. The original trilogy works because he had people who would say "No, that's dumb" to him at the time. He had others to help him write and direct. He didn't have that in the prequel trilogy, and that's a huge part of why it sucked.

So we're all in agreement then that Lucas is a 4 billion dollar super-fraud?

 

[Ajax1995]

NERDS!!!

 

[Jags]

So we're all in agreement then that Lucas is a 4 billion dollar fraud?

Nah, he gave the world a bunch of cool shit for sure. But when people start pointing to one obscure piece of the SW saga and comparing it to the best TV ever, yeah, it might be time to talk about fandom run amok.

I personally enjoyed Andor a lot, but I wouldn't liken it to the best TV of all time. It has a bit of a barrier to entry as you do kinda need to know or appreciate things about SW to even bother, and it's not paced all that well. It absolutely lands better if you're into SW, is all.

But I'm also not a sci-fi/fantasy aficionado. It's just another genre to me. Maybe if you have that bent then Star Wars is the masterpiece many claim it to be. I think about a third of it is really good, in both the movie and TV categories. Your mileage may vary.

Lucas definitely isn't a writer on par with Tolkien or Rowling, but he balanced out his writing deficiencies with his gifts as a director and visual storyteller to basically invent the modern blockbuster franchise. That's nothing to scoff at.

 

[Hivemind]

But when people start pointing to one obscure piece of the SW saga and comparing it to the best TV ever

Andor is legitimately great television that just happens to be Star Wars. It's not great because its a part of "the saga." It's great because in spite of being Star Wars.

The pacing is fine, albeit not for everyone. I get that some people don't like slow burns, but this is a well executed slow burn that makes you care about the characters and the looming conflicts (as opposed to, say, Rings of Power which is a slow burn that doesn't make you care about its stakes).

 

[Jags]

Andor is legitimately great television that just happens to be Star Wars. It's not great because its a part of "the saga."

That's not what I said. I said it's an obscure part of the saga that you're pointing to as objectively great television that requires no knowledge of or appreciation for Star Wars to enjoy.

All I'm saying is that's an overstatement. I watched it and liked it but feel pretty strongly that some SW knowledge is required to enjoy it fully (or to even bother in the first place cuz I don't think too many people would watch a SW-free trailer for Andor and gleefully dive in.)

And while I did enjoy it, I wouldn't say I enjoyed it more than Silo or Station 11 or Foundation, and that's just compared to 3 other things I watched in the genre in the last few months, not the best TV ever, genre be damned.

The pacing is fine, albeit not for everyone. I get that some people don't like slow burns, but this is a well executed slow burn that makes you care about the characters and the looming conflicts

And this particular slow burn has a much higher chance of feeling well-executed to someone who responds to an offhand comment about chatty robots with "But there's quite a few other speaking droids out there. The B1 battle droids from the prequels (and frequently used as comic relief in basically all Star Wars media since then). Huyang from Clone Wars & Ahsoka. K2-SO from you're favorite movie, Rogue One. L3-37 from Solo. IG-11 from the Mandalorian."

Someone who can casually reference Hoth, Cloud City, and Yavin IV in a conversation with someone who's never even been to Yavin I is more likely to dig the slow pace of Andor.

If you can rattle off the difference between the half-dozen releases of the first movie or know the title and plot of a sequel that never existed? Then you, my friend, might be ideally suited to not give a shit that you just burned two hours waiting for something to happen in Andor.

You're over-selling it a bit, Obi-Wan.

 

[kicksavedave]

Andor is a really good show with the little caveat that you have to be into Star Wars. And that's a sticking point because the Star Wars movie franchise is 2 really good movies, 2 or 3 pretty good ones, and at least 4 or 5 that kinda suck. And you can say roughly the same thing about the hit-or-miss rate of the 40 TV shows they've made lately.

So Andor being great is kinda like saying, "That guy is a pretty shitty human being, but his left ear is really cool."

Star Wars overall is a ho-hum but massive franchise built on the foundation of two really solid movies that were pretty lean on world building and characterization (very "white hat vs. black hat" broad stroke hamfistedness). That shaky foundation started to really show in the third movie and they've added a ton of content since then without addressing the issue all that much. Their one real attempt to really add to it produced the three worst movies they ever made.

Andor's quality stands out so much because most of the rest of it is so unremarkable, and that weighs down its quality as a standalone property pretty mightily. Without an abiding appreciation for the rest of it, comparing it to The Sopranos or Breaking Bad isn't the best idea.

Removing that stigma makes it more of a limited series, even though it'll have two seasons. And even then it'd have to compete with the likes of Band of Brothers, Chernobyl, and like half a dozen others just at HBO, and Netflix has had a few great ones, too. Probably best to stick to sci-fi comparisons because the genre hasn't yielded as much brilliance as its fans claim.

I really dug Andor, but let's not get crazy. Now, commence tomato-throwing.

All very fair. Where Star Wars in general ranks among the all time great films and TV, is kinda like where Dan Snyder ranks against all Redskins previous owners. But among the entire SW franchise, Rogue One and Andor stand out both stylistically and for quality writing. Many people will choose R.O. as their favorite SW movie and Andor as their favorite of the new TV series. That doesn't make either of them Shawshank Redemption or Breaking Bad. But thats OK. I still like spending time in the SW galaxy, even if its not incredible film making. It just all still takes me back to the Uptown Theatre in DC in the summer of 1977, when I was 9 years old and my life would change forever

* To fully enjoy either RO or Andor, you really need the full back story.

 

[Hivemind]

@Jags you're missing the point.

Yes, I'm a Star Wars nerd.
Yes, I enjoy Andor.

But I don't enjoy Andor because I'm a Star Wars nerd. Andor breaks away from tradition when it comes to so many things Star Wars. It's the opposite of the "typical" Star Wars formulas. It's most of the things a Star Wars show should not be. Yet, because it executes them as well as it does, it transcends that. Andor transcends Star Wars into just great story telling.

I love Andor because I'm a movie nerd, more than being a Star Wars nerd. I love it because it gives its actors space to shine and monologue. I love it because it has great cinematography. I love it has a great original score. I love it because it's shot with primarily real sets and practical effects that will stand up to the test of time. I love it because it hits so many notes that are relevant to life in 2020s. I love it because it parallels and draws influence from real world history and revolutionary movements. I love it because its lofty and unapologetic.

Can being a Star Wars nerd help add value? Sure. There are Easter Eggs and all sorts of content for the hardcore fans. But, in stark contrast to every other bit of Star Wars since the OT, those things are in the background (often quite literally). They aren't shoved in your face, they're there for the fans to discover and enjoy, but they don't distract.

I'm very much not saying it's the best Star Wars thing, and therefor the best thing ever. That's quite the opposite. But just because something is part of an existing IP or a genre-piece doesn't mean it's somehow lesser, either. The notion that genre-pieces aren't on par and cannot be "high drama" is a ridiculous cultural notion that has held on far too long. I'm not just saying this about Star Wars, but all genre-pieces. To pick another example frequently discussed in this thread - Toni Collette got robbed from an Oscar nomination because Hereditary is a horror film, for instance.

 

[kicksavedave]

Just wait until you meet Chopper (originally from Rebels, but now in Ahsoka as well). His beeps in Ahsoka are basically just English fed thru a beep filter. He also has probably killed more people than anyone else in Star Wars, short of the triggerman on the Death Star.

The SW Wiki actually ran all the numbers, and it turns out that Grand Moff Tarkin (consider him the trigger man in this scenario) is only 3rd on the list (Chopper is 25th )

The most deaths in the SW universe belongs to... General Hux, when he launched the Star Killer Base against a bunch of planets in EP7. 155 Billion to be specific. Tarkin only took out 2B.

Kill Counts - Star Wars

Characters that have killed any other sentient beings in Star Wars Canon and Legends media, from highest to lowest. As new media for Star Wars is made all the time with tv shows, comic books, novels, and other forms of media, this list will be updated constantly. Finished and/or temporarily...

listofdeaths.fandom.com

If you actually count droids, #5 on the list is pretty interesting.

 

[ChaosLord]

the movie and TV categories. Your mileage may vary.

Lucas definitely isn't a writer on par with Tolkien or Rowling, but he balanced out his writing deficiencies with his gifts as a director and visual storyteller to basically invent the modern blockbuster franchise. That's nothing to scoff at.

Rowling is a complete thief and a plagiarist but thats another discussion for another time.

 

[HTFN]

Andor is legitimately great television that just happens to be Star Wars. It's not great because its a part of "the saga." It's great because in spite of being Star Wars.

The pacing is fine, albeit not for everyone. I get that some people don't like slow burns, but this is a well executed slow burn that makes you care about the characters and the looming conflicts (as opposed to, say, Rings of Power which is a slow burn that doesn't make you care about its stakes).

Have to say, the pacing is cheeks. If I didn't remember how Disney does streaming premieres I'd have thought the first two episodes were done by people who actively hate themselves and possibly the audience because it drags forever and ever.

I actually had a hard time latching on to characters, outside of Andor because you kind of get no choice and might as well try early, but holy nuts a lot of those first two episodes is tickling nerd pickles by mentioning obscure little ships and details and places and how somebody's got a hydrodynamic spatula with port and starboard attachments that they want to sell.

I don't think I personally gave a single damn about anybody until episode 3, and then it was only like "okay if this is where your arc starts that's fine, it just better start from here and go somewhere good". So far this second section of the season where he's doing mercenary stuff is fine, better paced for sure, but not world-bending.

I really think there's still some Star Wars getting in your way. Not in a bad way, it just lets you internalize what some other people naturally want to glaze over during, and probably lends so much flavor to what you're watching that you don't know how to separate it to the truly uninterested. Show's good, wouldn't call it great so far.

 

[HTFN]

Rowling is a complete thief and a plagiarist but thats a discussion for a different time.

Yeah, whoa, I wouldn't have even put Rowling in the same paragraph as Tolkien if we're talking quality writers. Lady didn't even have a firm grasp on her plot until like... book four. It's great for YA material and I cut my teeth on it and remember it pretty fondly but it's not, like, literary gold.

That's like putting Dan Brown in that mix, to me.

 

[Jags]

I was not aware of the Rowling criticism that didn't have to do with politics. I didn't read the books. But I agreed to watch all of the Potter movies and the first Fantastic Beasts with my goddaughter over a summer break and there's no questioning that an extremely vivid and intricately-drawn world was created for that series. I was really impressed.

I've read a truly ridiculous amount of books, so I've got a really special hate for plagiarists. When those came out everything I heard told me they were for kids, so they were totally off my radar. I never heard the plagiarism claims. I admit that I did find that to be a clever and captivating world riddled with charming characters. Not exactly my thing content-wise, but it was easy to see why it captured the imaginations of so many people. Many adults in my life were flabbergasted that I hadn't read them.

But if all that stuff was ripped off, then yeah, f*** her. Didn't know that. Thanks for the tip.

EDIT: Trying to find the skinny on this and I gotta say that the big claims and lawsuits are pretty thin. I don't care either way, but this seems like a bit of a conspiracy thing. *shrug*

 

[usiel]

I almost complained about the word count on SW debate before realizing it is August still. Approved.

 

[Hivemind]

This seems like the absolute perfect moment to post this

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

I took a break from Andor. Since you said after chapter 6 it’s kind of like a new movie. I’ll finish it before football season and then move onto the new series once more are released.

 

[kicksavedave]

I remember, a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, when a light saber through the gut was instant death. Qui Gon must be pissed.

I fricken knew it.

Spoiler: Spoiler

.

 

[Neil Racki]

The Worst Person in the World - 3.5/5 .. a norweigian indie coming of age for a late 20 something woman in Oslo. Very delicately done, very well acted, I can see why it got some awards.

I really really need to stop watching norweigian female coming of age movies.

I did see titties .. twice even.