Canucks News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Playoffs Approaching

[credulous]

The problem with this comparison is most of those defensemen you've listed are either the driving force on their respective teams, have a significantly larger showcase to prove their value or they won cups. One good season doesn't put you in this price category. At least not when you're a RFA.

Hronek hasn't shown he can drive a line without Hughes. In fact, he's shown precisely the opposite. If Hughes is off his game, Hronek immediately struggles. They're a good compliment to one another but it's abundantly clear who's benefiting from who.

it doesn't really matter. you can only introduce certain things in arbitration hearings and 'well subjectively he's not a driving force' isn't one of them. it's all in the cba

All this aside, there is next to zero chance management pays Hronek more than Hughes over the next three seasons. And I'd love to hear his argument why he deserves more. Cap going up or not, Hughes is still locked at 7.8M for three more reasons.

i don't think hronek will get to arbitration (because i think even if he doesn't get a 9m award the 1 year term is disaster enough for the team) but he has so much leverage in these negotiations. the only way he takes less than hughes is if he really wants to stay in vancouver and is willing to take a relatively huge paycut to do so

 

[Vector]

Well Matthew Tkachuk didn't file for arbitration which led to the Flames filing for salary arbitration and then trading him. I'm not really sure if there is a common chess opener here.

Canucks used the threat of arbitration on Boeser’s last contract. So that’s another where the team used it.

 

[bossram]

Well Matthew Tkachuk didn't file for arbitration which led to the Flames filing for salary arbitration and then trading him. I'm not really sure if there is a common chess opener here.

Canucks used the threat of arbitration on Boeser’s last contract. So that’s another where the team used it.

These are interesting counterpoints, but I think they have very different surrounding circumstances vs. Hronek's case.

1. Everyone knew Tkachuk wanted out, which is not exactly the case with Hronek. Treliving also just seems like he bumbled his hand that offseason stupendously badly, hard to know what the actual strategy was.

2. In the Boeser case, Boeser was coming off a down season and his camp was likely worried he'd get a relatively smaller award vs. re-signing with VAN.

 

[bossram]

Since when is the bold true? Are you an arbitrator? Are you in the room when they do the hearings?

Also your examples are not that relevant. The reason for those cap hits being high are that most of the years are priced as UFA years. An arbitration award for Hronek would be for the one, final year of his RFA eligibility. Players priced solely/mostly in RFA years would be more comparable.

He's not getting $9M in arbitration and I would wager significantly on that. It is highly unlikely it even gets to arbitration, in any event.

Interesting @credulous has not responded to this, despite responding to others and making additional posts on arbitration.

Can you show us what section of the CBA determines which variables/statistics can be presented in arbitration? That would clear things up.

 

[Vector]

These are interesting counterpoints, but I think they have very different surrounding circumstances vs. Hronek's case.

1. Everyone knew Tkachuk wanted out, which is not exactly the case with Hronek. Treliving also just seems like he bumbled his hand that offseason stupendously badly, hard to know what the actual strategy was.

2. In the Boeser case, Boeser was coming off a down season and his camp was likely worried he'd get a relatively smaller award vs. re-signing with VAN.

Yup. That’s exactly what happened. It’s just one of the few cases where team elected arbitration was close to a reality.

Flames elected arbitration for Tkachuk to prevent him from negotiating offer sheets with other teams. Ultimately didn’t do them any good but allowed them to control the trade process rather than give Tkachuk the power.

 

[credulous]

Interesting @credulous has not responded to this, despite responding to others and making additional posts on arbitration.

Can you show us what section of the CBA determines which variables/statistics can be presented in arbitration? That would clear things up.

12.9 g ii and g iii

here: Collective Bargaining Agreement

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

it doesn't really matter. you can only introduce certain things in arbitration hearings and 'well subjectively he's not a driving force' isn't one of them. it's all in the cba



i don't think hronek will get to arbitration (because i think even if he doesn't get a 9m award the 1 year term is disaster enough for the team) but he has so much leverage in these negotiations. the only way he takes less than hughes is if he really wants to stay in vancouver and is willing to take a relatively huge paycut to do so

You wouldn't have to. All you say is they're the #1 defenseman of their respective team and Hronek is a step below nearly all of them. Walsh would be a complete fool to try comparing Hronek to Doughty or even Karlsson. Meanwhile, you have Makar and Fox in the Norris conversation--something Hronek will never be.

I doubt he wants to bring up Jones or Nurse because that's a good example on why not to pay guys for a one off season. Neither of them will ever live up to their contracts.

His best comparison would only really be Hamilton. And then it's right back to Hamilton is a #1 while Hronek isn't.

If it does get to arbitration, I doubt very much he's getting more than Hughes. Maybe 8M or thereabouts. In other words a hair but Walsh has a pretty huge uphill battle convincing anyone Hronek is worth more than Hughes.

That all said, if it does happen, we're pretty much trading him. Paying Hronek 8.5-9M would be absurd. He's simply not worth that even if we could afford it.

 

[rypper]

Trading Hughes is the dumbest thing I've read on this forum in a long time.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Trading Hughes is the dumbest thing I've read on this forum in a long time.

Bro, no. No. I refuse to believe someone said this.

 

[Hansen]

Trading Hughes is the dumbest thing I've read on this forum in a long time.

Reserved

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

If Hronek is determined to get top dollar on a long-term deal based on this platform year, and the Canucks want to trade him, there are 3 teams I think that would be interested: Toronto, Winnipeg, and Buffalo. I don't think you'd get much in a trade though.

 

[andora]

As far as I remember reading it is pretty wide open for what a team or a player can present as statistical evidence

 

[arttk]

Honestly this Hronek thing is like the Petey contract talk. We talked ourselves into thinking Petey is going to sign at like 12.5M and then he came in at 11.6M.
So yeah, chill out.

 

[bossram]

12.9 g ii and g iii

here: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Yes. Thank you for pointing it out. You have proven yourself wrong.

The evidence that can be presented is very broad:
A) the overall performance, including National Hockey League official statistics (both offensive and defensive), of the Player in the previous season or seasons;
D) the overall contribution of the Player to the competitive success or failure of his Club in the preceding season;
E) any special qualities of leadership or public appeal not inconsistent with the fulfillment of his responsibilities as a playing member of his team;
F) the overall performance in the previous season or seasons of any Player(s) who is alleged to be comparable to the party Player whose salary is in dispute; and

The above seems a lot broader than when you said that players literally cannot use raw numbers. C'mon bud. Take the L.

 

[bossram]

As far as I remember reading it is pretty wide open for what a team or a player can present as statistical evidence

You are correct. @credulous is basically making things up. He's cited the correct section of the CBA, but it does not actually support what he's trying to claim.

 

[F A N]

Canucks used the threat of arbitration on Boeser’s last contract. So that’s another where the team used it.

2. In the Boeser case, Boeser was coming off a down season and his camp was likely worried he'd get a relatively smaller award vs. re-signing with VAN.

That was a different scenario though. Not only was Boeser coming off a down season he also had that $7.5M AAV qualifying offer. Team-elected arbitration offered an opportunity to cut that AAV down a bit with little risk of a bigger award than the qualifying offer.

 

[andora]

.

The evidence that can be presented is very broad:
A) the overall performance, including National Hockey League official statistics (both offensive and defensive), of the Player in the previous season or seasons;
.

Wow yeah.. the fact it says you can include 'nhl' stats to me reads wide open.. like there isnt even a door there

 

[VanillaCoke]

Not paying the First (+) to swap mik for toffoli feels even more like a mistake now... like who would care about the price now, with an even better, stronger roster.
Not adding to a top two team to bolster it even more for a strong run is bit of a bummer.

 

[racerjoe]

Not paying the First (+) to swap mik for toffoli feels even more like a mistake now... like who would care about the price now, with an even better, stronger roster.
Not adding to a top two team to bolster it even more for a strong run is bit of a bummer.

Again... we didn't have the cap space for him... and we did add...

 

[sting101]

Not paying the First (+) to swap mik for toffoli feels even more like a mistake now... like who would care about the price now, with an even better, stronger roster.
Not adding to a top two team to bolster it even more for a strong run is bit of a bummer.

the mistake was not getting rid of Suter and getting Toffoli instead of Lindholm. At least Mikhayev has had a pulse is skating much better and looks to have turned a corner somewhat.

Would have rather had the 800k to apply to a raise for Joshua or Blueger than pay Suter 1.6 and Toffoli we probably could have re signed short term

Re: Lindholm i feel bad for the team that signs him. I'm sure he will turn it around somewhat but if he gets 7-9 million and 6-8yrs that team is gonna regret it

 

[VanillaCoke]

Again... we didn't have the cap space for him... and we did add...

Again... Yes we do, its a cap space swap.. and we could've added more...



The top six(nine) is clearly lacking and not on par with the other top teams post tdl. Top.of the league all year, would have been a good call to bolster the roster for a deep run even more. Idk how anyone can/would complain about that.

 

[SelltheTeamFrancesco]

Not paying the First (+) to swap mik for toffoli feels even more like a mistake now... like who would care about the price now, with an even better, stronger roster.
Not adding to a top two team to bolster it even more for a strong run is bit of a bummer.

Are we just making up scenarios that are not even plausible now and act like they would have been on the table. Toffoli got a second and a third. Swapping Mik would have cost you almost every draft pick of value we have for the foreseeable future or it would not make any sense for New Jersey.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Are we just making up scenarios that are not even plausible now and act like they would have been on the table. Toffoli got a second and a third. Swapping Mik would have cost you almost every draft pick of value we have for the foreseeable future or it would not make any sense for New Jersey.

In a thread full of made up scenarios, sure why not.

Substitute whatever you like for losing miks cap, Chicago, Arizona, SJ, use your imagination kiddo. Other teams did it, Allvin also has previously, not exactly outlandish.

Again, point is adding more to this first place team certainly would look good now, even if it cost more than the bargain wpg paid for toffoli, who we know fits perfectly here..

I'm shocked adding to compete even more/better/harder is controversial around here cmon now

 

[Vector]

In a thread full of made up scenarios, sure why not.

Substitute whatever you like for losing miks cap, Chicago, Arizona, SJ, use your imagination kiddo. Other teams did it, Allvin also has previously, not exactly outlandish.

Again, point is adding more to this first place team certainly would look good now, even if it cost more than the bargain wpg paid for toffoli, who we know fits perfectly here..

I'm shocked adding to compete even more/better/harder is controversial around here cmon now

You can’t make up a scenario and then say they made a mistake for not doing your imagined trade.

I don’t think there was a reasonable way to offload Mikheyev at this deadline. Sounds like they explored it but moving long term salary was too expensive of a proposition for short term upgrades.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

They should have traded for Crosby, the cowards.