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[Mr. Canucklehead]

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[Wisp]

I’m very convinced Sat Shah is on HF Canucks. A lot of what he says is very consistent with how this board thinks

It's that most of us find him agreeable and echo him.

Moving Garland would suck.

But let's be honest. I think we'd all trade Mikheyev and Garland for Guentzel.

That's the way I think of it.

I like Garland. I wouldn't be talking about trading a him if I didn't think they really desperately needed to raise this team's ceiling.

IMO we need to get that powerplay going, we need to get Pettersson going, that first line going. There's a lot a genuine star forward can unlock.

 

[arttk]

Moving Garland would suck.

But let's be honest. I think we'd all trade Mikheyev and Garland for Guentzel.

That's the way I think of it.

I think they might move Boeser if they can get Guentzel and then move Garland and Mik and somehow get Necas.
Might make sense to retain Lindholm in that case because the 3rd line wingers are going to be dirt cheap options, Pod + some cheap vet.

 

[Bleach Clean]

No kidding.

Reinhart has outscored Garland at even strength only once in the last 4 years and it's this year.

Once in four years.

Amazing how underrated he still is. And it's not hard to see in the counting stats, amazing how many people are still fooled by PP production when they look at stats.

We will not be able to replace his production for anywhere near 4.95 mil if we move him.

I'm surprised people still devalue the importance of talent, especially in short samples like the playoffs...

Take RNH and Garland for example: Garland outproduced RNH at ES in the regular season (42 to 38). In the playoffs, where checking is tighter and talent rises to the top, RNH outpaced Garland at ES (11 to 7 EVPs (rate)). That's the difference. Player talent becomes far more noticeable in higher leverage situations (like the PP).

EVPs are not everything. Even if a more talented player gave up something at ES to Garland, he would still be able to make it up by playing well with Miller-Pettersson-Lindholm, getting more out of each, and by converting PPPs. As well as preventing goals on the PK.

 

[pitseleh]

I'm surprised people still devalue the importance of talent, especially in short samples like the playoffs...

Take RNH and Garland for example: Garland outproduced RNH at ES in the regular season (42 to 38). In the playoffs, where checking is tighter and talent rises to the top, RNH outpaced Garland at ES (11 to 7 EVPs (rate)). That's the difference. Player talent becomes far more noticeable in higher leverage situations (like the PP).

EVPs are not everything. Even if a more talented player gave up something at ES to Garland, he would still be able to make it up by playing well with Miller-Pettersson-Lindholm, getting more out of each, and by converting PPPs. Oh, and by preventing goals on the PK.

RNH has a 70% GF rate playing with McDavid and a 37% rate when away from him. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

 

[Bleach Clean]

RNH has a 70% GF rate playing with McDavid and a 37% rate when away from him. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

McDavid and Hyman were RNH's most frequent linemates during the regular season as well (where he finished behind in EVPs).

 

[pitseleh]

McDavid and Hyman were RNH's most frequent linemates during the regular season as well (where he finished behind in EVPs).

Sure, but when I look at RNH playing next to a generational talent who is having an all time great playoff, I’m not sure why you’d attribute any material amount of the divergence to the difference in talent between RNH and Garland. Especially when RNH has terrible numbers away from McDavid.

 

[calnuck]

I think they might move Boeser if they can get Guentzel and then move Garland and Mik and somehow get Necas.
Might make sense to retain Lindholm in that case because the 3rd line wingers are going to be dirt cheap options, Pod + some cheap vet.

That is a horrible horrible idea

 

[mriswith]

I'm surprised people still devalue the importance of talent, especially in short samples like the playoffs...

Take RNH and Garland for example: Garland outproduced RNH at ES in the regular season (42 to 38). In the playoffs, where checking is tighter and talent rises to the top, RNH outpaced Garland at ES (11 to 7 EVPs (rate)). That's the difference. Player talent becomes far more noticeable in higher leverage situations (like the PP).

EVPs are not everything. Even if a more talented player gave up something at ES to Garland, he would still be able to make it up by playing well with Miller-Pettersson-Lindholm, getting more out of each, and by converting PPPs. As well as preventing goals on the PK.

RNH's linemates were Draisaitl and Kane vs LA, and Mcdavid and Hyman vs us. Garland got Dakota Joshua and Lindholm.

23.1 mil line vs 10.6 mil line.

I could write a lot more about how I disagree with literally everything you wrote in that post but I don't even need to, you proved my point for me.

The fact that you believe Garland, who indisputably drives his own line, can legitimately be compared to McDrai's lines while making less than half the money proves my point about how efficient his contract his and how talented he is.

 

[thecupismine]

I'm surprised people still devalue the importance of talent, especially in short samples like the playoffs...

Take RNH and Garland for example: Garland outproduced RNH at ES in the regular season (42 to 38). In the playoffs, where checking is tighter and talent rises to the top, RNH outpaced Garland at ES (11 to 7 EVPs (rate)). That's the difference. Player talent becomes far more noticeable in higher leverage situations (like the PP).

EVPs are not everything. Even if a more talented player gave up something at ES to Garland, he would still be able to make it up by playing well with Miller-Pettersson-Lindholm, getting more out of each, and by converting PPPs. As well as preventing goals on the PK.

It's also not an either/or thing. The Canucks have 4 guys who are going to take up 80%+ of the PP time - they just need one more good PP player moving forward, and that play is going to play next to Petey in all likelihood at ES. Not sure using an example of anyone who rides shotgun next to a top 5 player all time and gets caved in without him is very illustrative either.

Someone has to drive play on the third line, otherwise we end up in a spot where the bottom 6 holds back the top 6 because they're always getting caved in. The Canucks are atypical in the sense they have a small winger doing it instead of a big, penalty killing matchup center doing it, but you work with the resources you have rather than those you wish you did.

 

[mriswith]

RNH has a 70% GF rate playing with McDavid and a 37% rate when away from him. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

He's also comparing a line that makes 23 mil to one that made less than 8 mil in the regular season.

 

[Wisp]

Just because you guys are comparing that two, I like RNH's chances much more complimenting the Canucks top 6 centers than I do Garland's. Him and Pettersson would probably do some beautiful shit together.

For better or worse Garland has struggled to find chemistry in the Canucks top 6 since he was acquired. He was really awkward fit until he found a home on that third line and chemistry with Joshua.

Probably his best linemates will be gone in free agency and a good possibility he goes back to being an awkward fit.

 

[mriswith]

Just because you guys are comparing that two, I like RNH's chances much more complimenting the Canucks top 6 centers than I do Garland's. Him and Pettersson would probably do some beautiful shit together.

For better or worse Garland has struggled to find chemistry in the Canucks top 6 since he was acquired. He was really awkward fit until he found a home on that third line and chemistry with Joshua.

Probably his best linemates will be gone in free agency and a good possibility he goes back to being an awkward fit.

That's just not true. He carried Horvat's line in season 1 en route to a monstrous 50 ES point season and looked good with EP in the very limited minutes that it happened this year.

The perception that he is hard to find chemistry with is based entirely off of his slump season in his 2nd year here.

I really don't understand why every Garland critic completely glosses over his first season here and act as if that incredible, worth ~9 mil season where he carried the 2nd line never happened.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

RNH-EP-Marner is a dream line







to play against..

 

[David71]

I’m very convinced Sat Shah is on HF Canucks. A lot of what he says is very consistent with how this board thinks

what do you think his username is on here?

 

[Bleach Clean]

Sure, but when I look at RNH playing next to a generational talent who is having an all time great playoff, I’m not sure why you’d attribute any material amount of the divergence to the difference in talent between RNH and Garland. Especially when RNH has terrible numbers away from McDavid

I'm not sure why RNH's conversion would be discounted due to playing with McDavid in the playoffs? RNH has a hand in McDavid having that all-time great playoff.

 

[Bleach Clean]

RNH's linemates were Draisaitl and Kane vs LA, and Mcdavid and Hyman vs us. Garland got Dakota Joshua and Lindholm.

23.1 mil line vs 10.6 mil line.

I could write a lot more about how I disagree with literally everything you wrote in that post but I don't even need to, you proved my point for me.

The fact that you believe Garland, who indisputably drives his own line, can legitimately be compared to McDrai's lines while making less than half the money proves my point about how efficient his contract his and how talented he is.

And you missed the point entirely...

The point is not that Garland is a more efficient scorer/line driver at ES than random winger. The point is that this matters less than a player's overall contribution to a team. You could get more out of Pettersson, more on special teams play, that would make up the difference in losing Garland's ES superiority.

It's also not an either/or thing. The Canucks have 4 guys who are going to take up 80%+ of the PP time - they just need one more good PP player moving forward, and that play is going to play next to Petey in all likelihood at ES. Not sure using an example of anyone who rides shotgun next to a top 5 player all time and gets caved in without him is very illustrative either.

Someone has to drive play on the third line, otherwise we end up in a spot where the bottom 6 holds back the top 6 because they're always getting caved in. The Canucks are atypical in the sense they have a small winger doing it instead of a big, penalty killing matchup center doing it, but you work with the resources you have rather than those you wish you did.

But they'll have Lindholm to do this, no? This is why they re-sign him for $7m+. If they felt that the Garland solution was enough, then they don't re-sign Lindholm, imo.

If Garland could mesh with Pettersson, things would be a lot easier.

The RNH example is one of a player who is worse at ES, while providing a net conversion benefit to other skilled linemates. A skilled player working with other skilled players.

 

[wonton15]

what do you think his username is on here?

MS for Matiar Shah
Or M2B

 

[Wisp]

That's just not true. He carried Horvat's line in season 1 en route to a monstrous 50 ES point season

are we really pretending 52 points is monstrous and 46 points is a slump. this year that we're all pleased with him is at 47 points, the difference being this time he was contributing to winning hockey games in a steady third line roll.

 

[Wisp]

I'm not sure why RNH's conversion would be discounted due to playing with McDavid in the playoffs? RNH has a hand in McDavid having that all-time great playoff.

yes. there's a reason he plays with McDavid, because it makes him better and it gets the job done. alex burrows wasn't scoring 35 goals away from the Sedins either.

 

[Lat]

MS for Matiar Shah
Or M2B

Sat ain't no Master Scout

 

[Bleach Clean]

... and looked good with EP in the very limited minutes that it happened this year.

If he had looked demonstrably good with Pettersson, he wouldn't have been moved away from Pettersson. Or Miller for that matter.

 

[mriswith]

are we really pretending 52 points is monstrous and 46 points is a slump. this year that we're all pleased with him is at 47 points, the difference being this time he was contributing to winning hockey games in a steady third line roll.

I genuinely wonder if every Garland critic views it like you, not seeing the difference between ES and PP points. I don't see any other way for it to make sense.

You can't have a remotely accurate perception of him as a player if you miss the distinction.

49 even strength points his first season was monstrous, yes. It put him right in the same wheelhouse as Aho, Pastrnak, Nylander, Reinhart, Debrincat, Hischier, etc.

Pettersson and Miller have only accomplished that feat twice in their entire careers and only during their 90-100 point seasons.

 

[theguardianII]

Why not post this, this is a fantasy forum.

Marner for Boeser AND Garland? Safety in numbers for the Leafs.
or
Taveras for Boeser
or
Hronek for Nylander
or
Demko for 2026 1rst, Knies and Hildeby
or
Silovs for ?

Well that exhausts the TO & Vancouver trade stuff

 

[JT Milker]

Marner is an absolute knob.

 

[rypper]

Why not post this, this is a fantasy forum.

Marner for Boeser AND Garland? Safety in numbers for the Leafs.
or
Taveras for Boeser
or
Hronek for Nylander
or
Demko for 2026 1rst, Knies and Hildeby
or
Silovs for ?

Well that exhausts the TO & Vancouver trade stuff

I thought the purpose of fantasy trades was to make the team better?