Canucks Managerial Discussion | Part 18

[Jimson Hogarth*]

This is the best thing I've read here in awhile.



In the 101-point season, our best goalie, our best 5 defenders, and 8 of our 10 best forwards were from the previous regime. That was basically just the great core that had twice finished with the best record in the league bouncing back for one last good season.

And we still miss the playoffs if Benning's $6 million goalie doesn't get hurt and our backup doesn't .930 us there over the last 2 months of the season.



Sutter wasn't being used to shelter Horvat when he was healthy.

Sutter was given soft minutes and offensive zone starts, and even used on the wing for a stretch. Horvat was thrown under the bus defensively right from the start of the season.

Which is exactly what Benning said his plan was. Idiotic.

A GM living off the success of a core drafted by someone else? That never happens

 

[sting101]

Well he is right but, well, we finished 29th in the league.

Yes I was agreeing with what you said. Just can't use historical numbers as accurate measures in terms of goals. Otherwise we would be saying things like "the top players today suck they can't even score 50 goals and put up multiple 100 pt seasons"

 

[Cupless44]

Where did I say that?

If he had gotten a better futures return for guys like Kesler and Garrison (like getting a better return for a good defenseman? or at the VERY least keeping that 2nd round pick?), and not bothered to waste cap space on Miller, and not given Lack away for nothing, and not spent a draft pick to move Kassian for Prust, and not wasted time with Dorsett and Sbisa, and perhaps targeted Franson instead of Bartkowski, and actually given Shinkaruk a legitimate shot rather than giving him away, and not given away Forsling for Clendening, and not wasted assets to help solve Pittsburgh's cap problems, maybe we'd be in a better position.

I've been all for a rebuild. But that means stockpiling youth and draft picks. Benning has traded more youth and draft picks than he's acquired.

You are right, and I dislike most of the same moves you do. As I have said Benning needs to have a good summer and reverse that trend. I just don't think we have given up any all stars or that he has ruined the franchise. If he nails 2 more good drafts than after 4 years on the job he will have put together the best prospect pool in franchise history. Not a high standard to reach in this city I know, but it is accomplishing something.

He has cap space coming off the books in the next 2 years. He has no more room for goofy moves though. They have to be patient and build through the draft. It is sounding more like Linden i s getting it. Lets hope so.

 

[y2kcanucks]

You are right, and I dislike most of the same moves you do. As I have said Benning needs to have a good summer and reverse that trend. I just don't think we have given up any all stars or that he has ruined the franchise. If he nails 2 more good drafts than after 4 years on the job he will have put together the best prospect pool in franchise history. Not a high standard to reach in this city I know, but it is accomplishing something.

He has cap space coming off the books in the next 2 years. He has no more room for goofy moves though. They have to be patient and build through the draft. It is sounding more like Linden i s getting it. Lets hope so.

What makes you think he's even capable of having a good summer? Everything he's done until now suggests he isn't. There's no Lazarus effect here. Benning is what he is: a dumb idiot who's in way over his head as a GM of a professional hockey team.

He had cap space going into his first season and he wasted it. He would have had cap space last offseason if he didn't waste it on garbage too. He's devalued this franchise by losing almost every trade he makes. You can only build through the draft for so long. If that's all you're good at then congratulations: you've just become an NHL farm team for other NHL teams that actually know how to build championship calibre teams.

 

[y2kcanucks]

A GM living off the success of a core drafted by someone else? That never happens

Happened here most recently in the 2014-15 season. Since Benning's had a chance to put his stamp on the team we've seen the results (3rd worst in the league, bottom 5 in all categories).

Enjoy

 

[Cupless44]

You don't get it do you?

It's a league wide conspiracy - all the other teams are able to use smaller nets!


I'd rather not end up like the Oilers.

There is the patented Oiler rebuttal again! If we move on from 36 year old players we are doomed.

The Oiler are one team that hasn't nailed a draft pick outside the top 5 in years. It would be hard for any hockey team to ever duplicate their futility.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Happened here most recently in the 2014-15 season. Since Benning's had a chance to put his stamp on the team we've seen the results (3rd worst in the league, bottom 5 in all categories).

Enjoy

It's happened before? Most recently? What are some other instancea of GMs having success off of other people's built core?

 

[valkynax]

You are right, and I dislike most of the same moves you do. As I have said Benning needs to have a good summer and reverse that trend. I just don't think we have given up any all stars or that he has ruined the franchise. If he nails 2 more good drafts than after 4 years on the job he will have put together the best prospect pool in franchise history. Not a high standard to reach in this city I know, but it is accomplishing something.

He has cap space coming off the books in the next 2 years. He has no more room for goofy moves though. They have to be patient and build through the draft. It is sounding more like Linden i s getting it. Lets hope so.

It is not a single super star that's been pissed away, it's the consistent lack of trade awareness and appallingly bad negotiation skills that's causing the team to bleed away prospects and assets like a hemophiliac kid being tossed through a plate glass window.

Again, the Granlund trade. I'm not saying Shink is a top prospect, what he can bring to NHL was not known, and Benning thought it would be a good idea to give him up and bring in a proven plug into the team.

If we're a short rebuild team, we target proven star veterans to make immediate impact on the team's performance; if we're a long rebuild team, we trade away some existing veterans for picks and prospects to prepare for the future. Benning is doing neither, he's been making random trades and signing random contracts based on what I could only assume as how drunk he was the moment he made his decisions.

I've been hoping and hoping and hoping for Benning to improve but he's disappointed the fans time after time. The only thing he's good at right now is digging through other team's trash bin hoping to find that misunderstood or misused player for cheap so we could cash in. One may say Benning's good at drafting, but until his picks turn out to be 60 pt per season players, I'm not buying it.

 

[y2kcanucks]

It's happened before? Most recently? What are some other instancea of GMs having success off of other people's built core?

Well I'm keeping this on topic about the Canucks management so that's why I used this example. Bringing up anything else is just a red herring which only serves deflect attention away from the piss poor job the three stooges have done.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

There is the patented Oiler rebuttal again! If we move on from 36 year old players we are doomed.

The Oiler are one team that hasn't nailed a draft pick outside the top 5 in years. It would be hard for any hockey team to ever duplicate their futility.

Yes despite having an absurd number of top 9 picks over the years the "quantity over quality" drafting methodology hasn't worked for the oilers.

 

[Ryp37]

You are right, and I dislike most of the same moves you do. As I have said Benning needs to have a good summer and reverse that trend. I just don't think we have given up any all stars or that he has ruined the franchise. If he nails 2 more good drafts than after 4 years on the job he will have put together the best prospect pool in franchise history. Not a high standard to reach in this city I know, but it is accomplishing something.

He has cap space coming off the books in the next 2 years. He has no more room for goofy moves though. They have to be patient and build through the draft. It is sounding more like Linden i s getting it. Lets hope so.

Problem with this is they can't make up their mind. They preach patience and doing it the right way, then come July 1st they're looking to sign another overpriced contract. You're either re-building or you're not.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Well I'm keeping this on topic about the Canucks management so that's why I used this example. Bringing up anything else is just a red herring which only serves deflect attention away from the piss poor job the three stooges have done.

It's not a "red herring" that is absurd. A Benning hater who complains unironically about succeeding off of other people's core is a very real case of the pot calling out the kettle

 

[Hit the post]

There is the patented Oiler rebuttal again! If we move on from 36 year old players we are doomed.

I'd rather not just Benning's judgement in acquirement suitable veteran (cheaper) mentors. We've seen how that story went (eg., Prust). I might feel different with ANOTHER management team in place. Key difference.

The Oiler are one team that hasn't nailed a draft pick outside the top 5 in years. It would be hard for any hockey team to ever duplicate their futility.

Maybe it's just a case of luck 'balancing itself out'. They got really lucky during the zenith of the Gretzky years in drafting.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Yes despite having an absurd number of top 9 picks over the years the "quantity over quality" drafting methodology hasn't worked for the oilers.

What are you talking about? The Oilers haven't had a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 3 years.

Their 2013 draft had a lot of quantity, as did their 2010 draft. They've been poor at drafting. Should fire their scouts.

Vancouver's drafting has gotten a lot better in recent years though, starting in 2012. So for us we should do well with a quantity of draft picks.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Problem with this is they can't make up their mind. They preach patience and doing it the right way, then come July 1st they're looking to sign another overpriced contract. You're either re-building or you're not.

Which teams that are rebuilding don't try to sign good FAs?
Or take on big contracts? What?

 

[y2kcanucks]

It's not a "red herring" that is absurd. A Benning hater who complains unironically about succeeding off of other people's core is a very real case of the pot calling out the kettle

It is a red herring. I don't see what Mike Gillis has to do with anything. Who gives a **** if some of his core pieces were here before he got here? What does that have to do with the stupid moves the three stooges have made, other than to deflect attention away from it?

 

[Hit the post]

What does that have to do with the stupid moves the three stooges have made, other than to deflect attention away from it?

uh...there are FOUR stooges not three.

 

[Zaddy91]

Sedin Sedin Burrows (Nonis)
Baertschi (Benning) Horvat (Gillis/Nonis) Virtanen (Benning)
Etem(Benning) Sutter(Benning/Nonis) Hansen (Nonis)
Gaunce(gillis) Granlund (Gillis/Benning) Dorsett (Benning)

Edler(Nonis) Tanev (Gillis)
Hutton(Gillis) Tryamkin (Benning)
Sbisa(Benning/Nonis) Hamhuis (Gillis)

Markstrom (Gillis/Nonis)
Miller(Benning)


Gonna say that when the 1st line, the 2C 3C and #1D are Nonis Gillis didn't supply this team with what it needed. Hutton Horvat and Tanev are enough to leave him some slack for lack of top 9 drafted players.

 

[y2kcanucks]

uh...there are FOUR stooges not three.

Three Stooges and their pet jackass

 

[MS]

It's not a "red herring" that is absurd. A Benning hater who complains unironically about succeeding off of other people's core is a very real case of the pot calling out the kettle

Your continued attempts to deflect toward Gillis are just embarrassing.

We aren't talking about Mike Gillis. Mike Gillis has nothing to do with the job that Jim Benning is doing is GM of the Vancouver Canucks. If you don't have anything to contribute about Jim Benning, don't contribute anything at all.

There are other threads to talk about whether Mike Gillis did a good job as GM here.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

What are you talking about? The Oilers haven't had a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 3 years.

Their 2013 draft had a lot of quantity, as did their 2010 draft. They've been poor at drafting. Should fire their scouts.

Vancouver's drafting has gotten a lot better in recent years though, starting in 2012. So for us we should do well with a quantity of draft picks.

Oilers

2009- 4 top 90 picks
2010- 5 top 90 picks
2011- 5 top 90 picks
2012- 4 top 90 picks
2013- 4 top 90 picks

Wow that looks like something a lot of fans want the Canucks to do

Now in the same years the "lottery tickets" people love so much...

2009- two 4ths
2010- two 6th and two 7ths
2011- two 4ths
2012- no extra
2013- three 4ths

Yowza I see a lot of Benning haters with this as their listed ideal plan. Strip and ship assets and buy lottery tickets... Glad you aren't in charge of my money!

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Your continued attempts to deflect toward Gillis are just embarrassing.

We aren't talking about Mike Gillis. Mike Gillis has nothing to do with the job that Jim Benning is doing is GM of the Vancouver Canucks. If you don't have anything to contribute about Jim Benning, don't contribute anything at all.

There are other threads to talk about whether Mike Gillis did a good job as GM here.

Weren't you a fan of Pat Quinn? Don't you know that Quinn made some mistake in 1991?

 

[y2kcanucks]

Oilers

2009- 4 top 90 picks
2010- 5 top 90 picks
2011- 5 top 90 picks
2012- 4 top 90 picks
2013- 4 top 90 picks

Wow that looks like something a lot of fans want the Canucks to do

Now in the same years the "lottery tickets" people love so much...

2009- two 4ths
2010- two 6th and two 7ths
2011- two 4ths
2012- no extra
2013- three 4ths

Yowza I see a lot of Benning haters with this as their listed ideal plan. Strip and ship assets and buy lottery tickets... Glad you aren't in charge of my money!

Are our scouts as bad as the Oilers scouts?

And are you really arguing that having more draft picks is a bad thing?

 

[Cupless44]

Problem with this is they can't make up their mind. They preach patience and doing it the right way, then come July 1st they're looking to sign another overpriced contract. You're either re-building or you're not.

This I do agree with 100%.

The problem is you can't have a foot in each direction. Linden is playing up the prospects now so I hope he finally gets it and might understand that you have to give a fan base hope of something better, a contender in the future.

I do believe ownership has been a significant issue in a proper rebuild. Linden says he has their support. Lets hope so. And I do think the Sedins are a bit of a factor. I think they feel they owe them more than to lead a leaf type rebuild in the last 2 years here.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Are our scouts as bad as the Oilers scouts?

And are you really arguing that having more draft picks is a bad thing?

It is most def not a magic bullet. Especially if Benning came in and decided that the way the Canucks synthesized scouting information and made draft lists needed changing. Why waste assets with a scorched earth approach when you know you'll be revamping the way the team scouts, drafts and develops?