Canucks Managerial Discussion | Part 18

[Toxic0n]

So it's not so much I don't care it's that the negatives have been overblown imo

We finished bottom 5 in all statistical categories while trying to make the playoffs! Unless you believe in the "stealth tank" theory, I'd say the negatives are blown just the right amount.

 

[WhoseLainesItAnyway]

My guess is that a lot of people that seem to be taking this position became fans of the team post-2010 and witnessed a great team make it to the Finals and then suddenly fall off a cliff (somewhat). Most of the media hacks during this time did all they could to sewer Gillis and the narrative was (somewhat rightfully) that poor drafting closed the window on the team as a Cup contender. Enter Jim Benning, supposed drafting savant. The anti-Gillis in many ways. Of course there will be support for him amongst casual fans as long as he can throw some teenagers into the lineup. Any 'analysis' beyond that is just "wait and see!!!" so it's impossible to refute even with the most logical reasoning.

Agreed though that it's taking an awfully long time for the "wait and see" crowd to adjust to the team face planting even harder than expected. Scary thing is it might take Virtanen/McCann busting at age 25 (Hodgson style) for that crowd to admit that Benning isn't a scouting genius. Even that might not do it. Although it's obviously good for the team to draft well, having a major hit in Boeser might buy Benning some time in terms of fan appeasement, which could be terrible if the mismanagement everywhere else continues.

I don't think "wait and see" is such an unreasonable position to take when people are writing off teenagers and young players in their early 20s.

The reason why I defend Benning is the same reason why I thought the "fire Gillis" chants were wrong. I find the "fire everyone" crowd rantings to be the exact same kind of childish reactionary tantrum-throwing that was ultimately responsible for Gillis getting the ax. I didn't agree with his firing at the time but at least Gillis was on the job long enough for a legitimate evaluation of his work to happen. Most of the work this management has done can't be properly evaluated for years yet many here are ready to drive them to the airport over mountains that are actually molehills.

FWIW I've watched the majority of games the Canucks have played in the last 2 decades.

 

[WhoseLainesItAnyway]

We finished bottom 5 in all statistical categories while trying to make the playoffs! Unless you believe in the "stealth tank" theory, I'd say the negatives are blown just the right amount.

2015: This team shouldn't have made the playoffs it needed to tank! Fire Benning!
2016: This team shouldn't have tanked it needed to make the playoffs! Fire Benning!

 

[Toxic0n]

2015: This team shouldn't have made the playoffs it needed to tank! Fire Benning!
2016: This team shouldn't have tanked it needed to make the playoffs! Fire Benning!

right back at ya, your drive by comment is not even worth an argument.

 

[Ryp37]

2015: This team shouldn't have made the playoffs it needed to tank! Fire Benning!
2016: This team shouldn't have tanked it needed to make the playoffs! Fire Benning!

That's not what he is saying at all but whatever fits your argument

 

[arttk]

2015: This team shouldn't have made the playoffs it needed to tank! Fire Benning!
2016: This team shouldn't have tanked it needed to make the playoffs! Fire Benning!

What a lazy and crappy argument.

 

[RobertKron]

Which players? Virtanen? McCann? Demko? Tryamkin? Which of these top 90 picks would you say Benning had little or no influence on?

That's not generally how teams draft. They don't just show up at the draft, wait until their turn comes around, and then say "um, we want that guy!!" Similarly, they obviously can't decide in advance what guy they want at each spot.

The process of building the team's draft list takes months of give and take from the scouting staff and GM to come up with the list that they use on draft day. Being a "good drafting" GM is like any type of good management: it comes from effective use of your resources to build and follow a good process for your team. This romanticization of Benning, or any GM, following hunches and making these sweeping declarations or whatever is so absurdly simplistic.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

That's not generally how teams draft. They don't just show up at the draft, wait until their turn comes around, and then say "um, we want that guy!!" Similarly, they obviously can't decide in advance what guy they want at each spot.

The process of building the team's draft list takes months of give and take from the scouting staff and GM to come up with the list that they use on draft day. Being a "good drafting" GM is like any type of good management: it comes from effective use of your resources to build and follow a good process for your team. This romanticization of Benning, or any GM, following hunches and making these sweeping declarations or whatever is so absurdly simplistic.

I'm wondering which of those picks Benning stood back as people are saying, and just let happen.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Sarcastic mischaracterization of something nobody said!

 

[me2]

We finished bottom 5 in all statistical categories while trying to make the playoffs! Unless you believe in the "stealth tank" theory, I'd say the negatives are blown just the right amount.

biggest regression in team history (26 points)
lowest scoring team in team history
most losses in a season
2nd longest losing streak in team history
etc.


overblown

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

biggest regression in team history (26 points)
lowest scoring team in team history
most losses in a season
2nd longest losing streak in team history
etc.


overblown

Shutout 3 straight games for the first time in history. Worst offensive output by a defence in 30 years.

If only sbisa didn't get hurt we would have been in the race though.

 

[Kickassguy]

Lulz.

 

[Catamarca Livin]

I'm wondering which of those picks Benning stood back as people are saying, and just let happen.

Yes exactly. It is his name on the draft, he would be involved in the final decision of each pick. Of course while taking input. It is not like he was out of hockey before being hired. Funny how some people need Benning to be bad at everything, therefore will not give him credit for anything.

 

[Kickassguy]

Yes exactly. It is his name on the draft, he would be involved in the final decision of each pick. Of course while taking input. It is not like he was out of hockey before being hired. Funny how some people need Benning to be bad at everything, therefore will not give him credit for anything.

Funny how some people seem to think one area of possible strength makes up for about four other areas of managerial weakness.

 

[pahlsson]

props to jim benning for sending bonino out of the conference and preventing a rival from picking up a cheap useful player, people **** on him but he really knows how to wheel and deal

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Yes exactly. It is his name on the draft, he would be involved in the final decision of each pick. Of course while taking input. It is not like he was out of hockey before being hired. Funny how some people need Benning to be bad at everything, therefore will not give him credit for anything.

He gets credit for Boeser. He doesn't get blamed for Stewart. Has nothing to do with what you need, it's about being consistent with logic.

 

[Hit the post]

He gets credit for Boeser. He doesn't get blamed for Stewart. Has nothing to do with what you need, it's about being consistent with logic.

Certainly not the selection but he deserves all the "credit" for the guy that GAVE HIM A CONTRACT (when he didn't have to at that point).

Not a huge thing as I don't think we're that close to the 50 contract limit - but hardly a "plus" for Benning.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Certainly not the selection but he deserves all the "credit" for the guy that GAVE HIM A CONTRACT (when he didn't have to at that point).

Not a huge thing as I don't think we're that close to the 50 contract limit - but hardly a "plus" for Benning.

Of course. That was just embarrassing. And then they started him in AHL because they are that bad at projecting players in terms of where they are at. After flunking out of AHL he was sent to ECHL where he flunked out again, and then foisted on some junior team because his original junior team didn't want him. Actually feel bad for the kid; that experience had to be embarrassing. Benning has taken his "feel good" story and turned the poor kid into a running gag.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

props to jim benning for sending bonino out of the conference and preventing a rival from picking up a cheap useful player, people **** on him but he really knows how to wheel and deal

Nice one.

In all seriousness, I have no idea how we make a fairly savvy pick-up hockey wise and cap wise with Bonino, trade him for a player who is at best equal to him in value, then give him a contract with an AAV nearly 2.5x the amount of Bonino's.

I didn't love it at the start, and it has not grown on me at all. Yeah, yeah, wasn't a full season I know. But if you, pro-Benning dude who will rebut me and vehemently claim he's not pro-Benning, think he's suddenly a 25-goal scorer next year, full marks to you.

 

[me2]

Nice one.

In all seriousness, I have no idea how we make a fairly savvy pick-up hockey wise and cap wise with Bonino, trade him for a player who is at best equal to him in value, then give him a contract with an AAV nearly 2.5x the amount of Bonino's.

I didn't love it at the start, and it has not grown on me at all. Yeah, yeah, wasn't a full season I know. But if you, pro-Benning dude who will rebut me and vehemently claim he's not pro-Benning, think he's suddenly a 25-goal scorer next year, full marks to you.

"When I traded for Bonino I was told he was 26 which is real good, just the right age for our refresh retool rebuild 'new direction' (TM). But then a year later our stats guy discovered Bonino was actually 27 and 27 is too old for the 'new direction' (TM). I don't know how or why this could happened - I have people still looking in it. I asked Gilman about this oversight and he just shrugged mumbled something incoherent like 'tempus fugit', I had to let him go I think he's losing it. Anyway I was left with no option but to move Bonino. I have replaced him with 26 Brandon Sutter, who I have doubled check is 26 and not too old like 27 or something."

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

"When I traded for Bonino I was told he was 26 which is real good, just the right age for our refresh retool rebuild 'new direction' (TM). But then a year later our stats guy discovered Bonino was actually 27 and 27 is too old for the 'new direction' (TM). I don't know how or why this could happened - I have people still looking in it. I asked Gilman about this oversight and he just shrugged mumbled something incoherent like 'tempus fugit', I had to let him go I think he's losing it. Anyway I was left with no option but to move Bonino. I have replaced him with 26 Brandon Sutter, who I have doubled check is 26 and not too old like 27 or something."

I should not have laughed at this but I did.

 

[tantalum]

"When I traded for Bonino I was told he was 26 which is real good, just the right age for our refresh retool rebuild 'new direction' (TM). But then a year later our stats guy discovered Bonino was actually 27 and 27 is too old for the 'new direction' (TM). I don't know how or why this could happened - I have people still looking in it. I asked Gilman about this oversight and he just shrugged mumbled something incoherent like 'tempus fugit', I had to let him go I think he's losing it. Anyway I was left with no option but to move Bonino. I have replaced him with 26 Brandon Sutter, who I have doubled check is 26 and not too old like 27 or something."

That was fantastic.

 

[Cupless44]

In regards to your last paragraph, I'm in the exact same boat.

I think it's unfair to state it's only one side repeating themselves - the same arguments arebeing repeated by both sides. The discussions are stale and repetitive and have been for some time.

I can only speak for myself but I don't think drafting is a panacea for everything wrong with the team, nor is it the case that I 'don't care about anything else'. That being said I do feel that great drafting will go a long way towards rebuilding this franchise.

I'm not as high on Benning as when he first was hired (I was also among the minority who loved the Garrison trade, and still do) however I also don't feel his contracts or trades have been as bad as many make them out to be. So it's not so much I don't care it's that the negatives have been overblown imo, and relatively speaking I don't think Sutter being overpaid by 500k, or the team losing a 3rd round pick to acquire the better player, is really going to be the difference between success and failure. That doesn't mean the Sbisa contract isn't horrid and was not an egregious mistake.

I would also add I don't think that asset management, as it's interpreted around here, is the primary goal of a GM or again as important as some make it out to be. Winning trades and 'managing assets' should be secondary as opposed to the focus.

Great post. I could not have said better myself, how I feel about the whole thing. You nailed it for me.

 

[Cupless44]

We finished bottom 5 in all statistical categories while trying to make the playoffs! Unless you believe in the "stealth tank" theory, I'd say the negatives are blown just the right amount.

Two seasons under Benning....one a 101 pt playoff season. The other a poor season, but no one objective could say injuries did not affect the results significantly.

Aside from the fact that team needed a rebuild when Benning was hired, a GMs body of work needs more than 2 years, especially when taking over an aging team in decline with a poor prospect pool.


So the bottom line after 2 years is inconclusive.

 

[Cupless44]

"When I traded for Bonino I was told he was 26 which is real good, just the right age for our refresh retool rebuild 'new direction' (TM). But then a year later our stats guy discovered Bonino was actually 27 and 27 is too old for the 'new direction' (TM). I don't know how or why this could happened - I have people still looking in it. I asked Gilman about this oversight and he just shrugged mumbled something incoherent like 'tempus fugit', I had to let him go I think he's losing it. Anyway I was left with no option but to move Bonino. I have replaced him with 26 Brandon Sutter, who I have doubled check is 26 and not too old like 27 or something."

Pretty clever, except you left out the part about Benning's concentrated effort of trying to make a slow team faster.