GDT: Canadian Soccer | Canada at the Copa America - July 9 vs Argentina in the SF

[Drivesaitl]

Past coaches never gave a damn about the actual team. Herdman actually cares instead of just showing up for a paycheck. He’s keenly aware of his player selection pool. There’s a strong argument that Herdman was a major driving force in the recruitment of players like Eustaquio and the recognition of players like Vitoria and Johnston.

He seems to have done a good job. For sure I like the type of players and the range of talents he's selected for the team. We seem to like the same players. Just a comment on the game but I thought Buchanan had kind of an off game yesterday. Some bad passes and turnovers but Canada was making a lot of those. He didn't have his usual verve. But this was the US, and they shutdown quickly and better at defending than most of what we've seen at Concacaf. But Larin goal was a real beauty. That step around and slotting home, that was Klose worthy. Really like him. He should have had 2 but finishing one is gold.

 

[Cloned]

Or maybe it was the automatic World Cup berth? Look, I like the guy but these sort of results are not sole sourced.

Vitoria is a key player under Herdman after years of being overlooked by past coaches. We wasted his entire prime because past coaches weren’t committed enough to the national team to actually put effort into scouting and player selection. This is probably Herdman’s second greatest quality, his best being motivation and team building.

And an automatic berth means less if the team sucks on the pitch. Herdman influences all sorts of things in a positive manner and it all adds up to form what we’re seeing today.

 

[Gopper]

What he’s done for soccer in this country has been transformative. You can argue he was simply the right man at the right time, but I think he deserves every bit of credit thrown his way.

Sure but Bev Priestman won a Gold Medal with largely the same group of players that John Herdman determined were not good enough to win with. Yes, there's been a few additions and players like Ashley Lawrence and Jessie Fleming getting better. Priestman has Sinclair near the end of her career and didn't have players like Diana Matheson or Melissa Tancredi either.

Herdman certainly has delivered and he's a great recruiter. He also gets to select Jonathan David, Alphonso Davies, and Stephen Eustáquio. I think another quality manager can get similar results with this group.

 

[Cloned]

He seems to have done a good job. For sure I like the type of players and the range of talents he's selected for the team. We seem to like the same players. Just a comment on the game but I thought Buchanan had kind of an off game yesterday. Some bad passes and turnovers but Canada was making a lot of those. He didn't have his usual verve. But this was the US, and they shutdown quickly and better at defending than most of what we've seen at Concacaf. But Larin goal was a real beauty. That step around and slotting home, that was Klose worthy. Really like him. He should have had 2 but finishing one is gold.

Buchanan is still relatively inexperienced and there will be mistakes. But his skill set is almost unique on this team. I say almost because Davies has a similar skill set, but obviously at a more advanced level.

The scary thing is all the key guys are young and likely to get better in 4 years…

 

[AM]

Vitoria is a key player under Herdman after years of being overlooked by past coaches. We wasted his entire prime because past coaches weren’t committed enough to the national team to actually put effort into scouting and player selection. This is probably Herdman’s second greatest quality, his best being motivation and team building.

And an automatic berth means less if the team sucks on the pitch. Herdman influences all sorts of things in a positive manner and it all adds up to form what we’re seeing today.

This sort of argument is only settled by who can stay coherent after 5 shots.

 

[Cloned]

Sure but Bev Priestman won a Gold Medal with largely the same group of players that John Herdman determined were not good enough to win with. Yes, there's been a few additions and players like Ashley Lawrence and Jessie Fleming getting better. Priestman has Sinclair near the end of her career and didn't have players like Diana Matheson or Melissa Tancredi either.

Herdman certainly has delivered and he's a great recruiter. He also gets to select Jonathan David, Alphonso Davies, and Stephen Eustáquio. I think another quality manager can get similar results with this group.

Herdman would’ve won Gold if not for absolutely shambolic officiating. He also faced USA at the height of their powers and Brazil/Marta at the height of their powers. I’m also not sure he ever “determined” these players were not good enough to win with. I wouldn’t equate his ambition to coaching the mens team as giving up on the womens team, especially since he keeps in regular contact with many of the players on that team.

He’s the best coach in the region and it’s unlikely Canada could find a better replacement at this time.

 

[Cloned]

This sort of argument is only settled by who can stay coherent after 5 shots.

I bet Herdman can take 5 shots and still be coherent enough to coach a game.

 

[AM]

I bet Herdman can take 5 shots and still be coherent enough to coach a game.

Hopefully not until we clinch .

 

[Gopper]

Vitoria is a key player under Herdman after years of being overlooked by past coaches. We wasted his entire prime because past coaches weren’t committed enough to the national team to actually put effort into scouting and player selection. This is probably Herdman’s second greatest quality, his best being motivation and team building.

And an automatic berth means less if the team sucks on the pitch. Herdman influences all sorts of things in a positive manner and it all adds up to form what we’re seeing today.

Vitoria, Borjan and Hoilett committed to Canada before Herdman.

 

[Cloned]

Vitoria, Borjan and Hoilett committed to Canada before Herdman.

Vitoria played sparsely for Canada (mostly in friendlies as a relief CB) until Herdman recognized his ability last year and he played in 14 games.

 

[Gopper]

Herdman would’ve won Gold if not for absolutely shambolic officiating. He also faced USA at the height of their powers and Brazil/Marta at the height of their powers. I’m also not sure he ever “determined” these players were not good enough to win with. I wouldn’t equate his ambition to coaching the mens team as giving up on the womens team, especially since he keeps in regular contact with many of the players on that team.

He’s the best coach in the region and it’s unlikely Canada could find a better replacement at this time.

I agree with you about him being the best coach in the region. I like John Herdman a lot.

I do know for a fact that Herdman did feel like he went as far as he could with women's side. So much so that he was going to leave until soccer canada gave him the men's job.

 

[Cloned]

I agree with you about him being the best coach in the region. I like John Herdman a lot.

I do know for a fact that Herdman did feel like he went as far as he could with women's side. So much so that he was going to leave until soccer canada gave him the men's job.

I’d imagine more of it had to do with wanting to coach mens international soccer than with wanting to leave womens international soccer. That’s more about personal/career ambition than giving up on the womens team. The CSA were smart enough to do this so that he didn’t move for a position in another national mens soccer federation.

 

[Gopper]

I’d imagine more of it had to do with wanting to coach mens international soccer than with wanting to leave womens international soccer. That’s more about personal/career ambition than giving up on the womens team. The CSA were smart enough to do this so that he didn’t move for a position in another national mens soccer federation.

I don't blame him at all. The women's side was stalled and there weren't a lot of good young players coming in when he left.

It doesn't change the fact that Bev Priestman was able to get more out of virtually the same group of players that John Herdman determined weren't good enough. Bev Priestman did a great job coaching them and Canada saw a number of players show a lot of improvement with her coaching. Bev didn't have the luxury of coaching Sinclair in her prime, who was the best player in the world.

Vitoria was always on Canada's radar. He chose not to commit. He still was capped before Herdman came on the scene. Same with Cyle Larin. Same with Davies. Same with Jonathan David. The pieces were there.

Herdman did recruit Eustáquio and Scott Kennedy. He certainly deserves credit in the recruitment department. If he can get Marcelo Flores, he will be God tier to me. That would be unbelievable.

 

[Cloned]

I don't blame him at all. The women's side was stalled and there weren't a lot of good young players coming in when he left.

It doesn't change the fact that Bev Priestman was able to get more out of virtually the same group of players that John Herdman determined weren't good enough. Bev Priestman did a great job coaching them and Canada saw a number of players show a lot of improvement with her coaching. Bev didn't have the luxury of coaching Sinclair in her prime, who was the best player in the world.

Vitoria was always on Canada's radar. He chose not to commit. He still was capped before Herdman came on the scene. Same with Cyle Larin. Same with Davies. Same with Jonathan David. The pieces were there.

Herdman did recruit Eustáquio and Scott Kennedy. He certainly deserves credit in the recruitment department. If he can get Marcelo Flores, he will be God tier to me. That would be unbelievable.

I still think it’s less that he “determined” the women weren’t good enough and more “I want a new challenge and coaching mens international soccer is the pinnacle of my career path.”

I’m not sure it’s fair to compare Herdman to Priestman. Herdman had prime Sinclair, but also had to face prime Morgan/Marta/Wambach/Rapinoe/Lloyd. Priestman has old Sinclair, but also faces a far less formidable USA/Germany/Brazil squad than Herdman did. Herdman had them playing free flowing attacking football and lost because of shoddy officiating. Priestman has them playing tight defensive football and won two knockout games on penalties. There’s probably a middle ground somewhere between saying one of them is definitively better than the other.

I think you have to credit Herdman for the whole tapestry of recruitment and team building. It’s not easy to convince players to commit and convince other players to buy in to a team concept. With Vitoria he was considered somewhat of a outcast on the team until Herdman decided to include him on a regular basis and got everyone on the same page.

 

[Gopper]

I still think it’s less that he “determined” the women weren’t good enough and more “I want a new challenge and coaching mens international soccer is the pinnacle of my career path.”

I’m not sure it’s fair to compare Herdman to Priestman. Herdman had prime Sinclair, but also had to face prime Morgan/Marta/Wambach/Rapinoe/Lloyd. Priestman has old Sinclair, but also faces a far less formidable USA/Germany/Brazil squad than Herdman did. Herdman had them playing free flowing attacking football and lost because of shoddy officiating. Priestman has them playing tight defensive football and won two knockout games on penalties. There’s probably a middle ground somewhere between saying one of them is definitively better than the other.

I think you have to credit Herdman for the whole tapestry of recruitment and team building. It’s not easy to convince players to commit and convince other players to buy in to a team concept. With Vitoria he was considered somewhat of a outcast on the team until Herdman decided to include him on a regular basis and got everyone on the same page.

He was leaving the Canadian women for England until Canada soccer up the ante and gave him the men's gig. So yes, I'd say he absolutely determined that the current group of players he had weren't good enough to win and he had taken them as far as they could go. That's the just of the story. Obviously, that turned out to be false because under Bev, they won a gold medal and beat the Americans, which they never did under John.

 

[Cloned]

He was leaving the Canadian women for England until Canada soccer up the ante and gave him the men's gig. So yes, I'd say he absolutely determined that the current group of players he had weren't good enough to win and he had taken them as far as they could go. That's the just of the story. Obviously, that turned out to be false because under Bev, they won a gold medal and beat the Americans, which they never did under John.

Well he's from England, that's literally his home country. That's not exactly a questionable career move in terms of ambition and heart, especially if it meant inroads towards eventually getting the men's job with England too. It's a BIG leap of logic to suggest that he determined that the Canadian women weren't good enough and that that was the reason why he was considering a move to England.

And you still haven't addressed my point about the quality of players he had to face while he was the coach of the women's team. Especially the Americans, since you brought them up.

 

[Gopper]

Well he's from England, that's literally his home country. That's not exactly a questionable career move in terms of ambition and heart, especially if it meant inroads towards eventually getting the men's job with England too. It's a BIG leap of logic to suggest that he determined that the Canadian women weren't good enough and that that was the reason why he was considering a move to England.

And you still haven't addressed my point about the quality of players he had to face while he was the coach of the women's team. Especially the Americans, since you brought them up.

I'm telling you what John Herdman thought about the women's team when he left. He thought the team achieved all they could. The original core led by Sinclair either retired or their play was declining. The young players coming up weren't showing well.

I don't blame Herdman for leaving or looking for new challenges and opportunities. My point is that he made a determination that his core of women he had weren't good enough to achieve beyond what they already had. Which as you know was two bronze medals. The team had peaked. Bev Priestman three years later takes largely the same group that Herdman deemed not good enough and won a gold medal with them. And she had arguably a weaker core than he ever did. She did not have Matheson, Tancredi or even a 33 year old Christine Sinclair. Let alone Christine Sinclair in 2011/2012 when she was the best player in the world.

I'm pushing back on your narrative that John Herdman is some soccer messiah in Canada. He's done a great job and I hope he stays until 2026. The women achieved their greatest success without him. And with the men's team, many of the key players were already there.

The US women were much better in 2012 than the team we saw in 2021. That's fair. The 2021 US team still beat the Netherlands in the Olympic quarters, who were arguably the strongest team. Canada got good results against all of the top teams in the tournament. Bev Priestman did a very good job.

Yes, John Herdman is a great recruiter and motivator. He's a perfect national team coach. Players go to war for the guy. I know information about the women's team mostly. He got Steph Labbe back who almost quit after the Carolina Morace debacle. She was done. He also convinced Josee Belanger to come back as well. She also quit the Nat team after Morace tenure with the team. He's very good.

Speaking of Morace, she was the one who really challenged Sinclair to improve her fitness levels and really try to be the best player in the world. Does Morace get credit for Sinclair becoming the best women's player and helping Canada win a bronze a year later?

To me Herdman is a good cook who has all the right ingredients and he's stirring the pot just right. Benito Flores and Stephan Hart never had those ingredients. But they also aren't the coach Herdman is. Herdman doesn't achieve what he has with the players Stephen Hart had to choose from.

 

[Cloned]

I'm telling you what John Herdman thought about the women's team when he left. He thought the team achieved all they could. The original core led by Sinclair either retired or their play was declining. The young players coming up weren't showing well.

I don't blame Herdman for leaving or looking for new challenges and opportunities. My point is that he made a determination that his core of women he had weren't good enough to achieve beyond what they already had. Which as you know was two bronze medals. The team had peaked. Bev Priestman three years later takes largely the same group that Herdman deemed not good enough and won a gold medal with them. And she had arguably a weaker core than he ever did. She did not have Matheson, Tancredi or even a 33 year old Christine Sinclair. Let alone Christine Sinclair in 2011/2012 when she was the best player in the world.

I'm pushing back on your narrative that John Herdman is some soccer messiah in Canada. He's done a great job and I hope he stays until 2026. The women achieved their greatest success without him. And with the men's team, many of the key players were already there.

The US women were much better in 2012 than the team we saw in 2021. That's fair. The 2021 US team still beat the Netherlands in the Olympic quarters, who were arguably the strongest team. Canada got good results against all of the top teams in the tournament. Bev Priestman did a very good job.

Yes, John Herdman is a great recruiter and motivator. He's a perfect national team coach. Players go to war for the guy. I know information about the women's team mostly. He got Steph Labbe back who almost quit after the Carolina Morace debacle. She was done. He also convinced Josee Belanger to come back as well. She also quit the Nat team after Morace tenure with the team. He's very good.

Speaking of Morace, she was the one who really challenged Sinclair to improve her fitness levels and really try to be the best player in the world. Does Morace get credit for Sinclair becoming the best women's player and helping Canada win a bronze a year later?

To me Herdman is a good cook who has all the right ingredients and he's stirring the pot just right. Benito Flores and Stephan Hart never had those ingredients. But they also aren't the coach Herdman is. Herdman doesn't achieve what he has with the players Stephen Hart had to choose from.

You may have sources inside the womens team, but I still question how you would know exactly what Herdman was actually thinking. No one but he would know that.

Besides, all the positive things you mention about Herdman are already enough to label him a soccer messiah in Canada.

 

[Delicious Pancakes]

Maybe we should start a separate thread for John Herdman?

 

[Cloned]

Maybe we should start a separate thread for John Herdman?

Don’t tempt me.

“Extend Herdman for life.”

 

[stratedge]

Finishing first in CONCACAF would push up their FIFA rankings and, possibly, get us some more favourable opponents in the group stage.

It's individual match results, not qualifier standings, that affects their rating and thus ranking. But I took a good long look and, with the way the ratings system works now, it's pretty unlikely they can move up enough to move from the 4th pot of the draw to the 3rd, which is the only way to get a more favourable group stage (other than the luck of the draw).

 

[oilers'72]

It's individual match results, not qualifier standings, that affects their rating and thus ranking. But I took a good long look and, with the way the ratings system works now, it's pretty unlikely they can move up enough to move from the 4th pot of the draw to the 3rd, which is the only way to get a more favourable group stage (other than the luck of the draw).

That's why I mentioned that these wins may move us up enough in the rankings. Currently, the US is 11th and Mexico 14th. The US win will get us a fair number of points. The remaining 4 games are against weaker opponents, so dropping points against them will drop the ranking points. The next rankings will come out on the 22nd.

The interesting thing I saw when checking the December ranking was that Algeria jumped a massive 7,97 points. But, CAF qualifying ended on November 16th, with Algeria finishing first in their group at 4-2-0, 2 points up on Burkina Faso, who drew Algeria 2-2 in the final game. Other than having a GD of +21, there's nothing to support that jump from 32nd to 29th.

 

[rboomercat90]

So tell me if I have this wrong (because I am not a soccer guy):

Whether Canada finishes 1, 2 or 3 in qualifying doesn't really matter in terms of what draw we might get in Qatar. What matters instead is what our overall FIFA world ranking is.

The way the draws are selected is they form 4 groups of 8, with the first group teams ranked 1-8, then 9-16, 17-24, and 25-32, and then each pool gets one team from each group.

Canada's current ranking is #40. So if we were worried about getting a slightly better draw we'd need to be ranked in the top 24 by the time the World Cup draws are made. (or at least in the top 24 of the teams that make it - I understand one of Italy or Portugal will not make it, for example).

But still - even if we qualify early the remaining games are still useful for that overall FIFA ranking, no?


(and no, I know there's lots of soccer to play and they haven't qualified for anything yet)

I’m curious to see where they’re ranked after this current window of qualifying. USA and Mexico are currently ranked 11 and 14 respectively. With this win over the Americans and Mexico failing to win a home game against Costa Rica you’d have to think the gap will be narrowed significantly.

 

[PositiveCashFlow]

How long before he ends up in a tier 1 league in Europe?

 

[AM]

Nothing tops Crosby's golden goal from Vancouver 2010. All my American friends, coworkers, beer league teammates, etc... were chirping hard after the US beat Canada in the preliminary round. Apparently the gold was theirs for the taking after they dominated Finland in the semis. I was hungover that Monday, but really had a fun time taking victory laps among each group.

Americans tend to make themselves easy targets, on occasion.