Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault)

[Caje]

Regardless of the number, because that's not the question here.

Once you signed a financial settlement so that you drop the charges, what happens if you change your mind?

Can they put conditions like if it was some sort of contract? Can she have agreed to never press charges and never tell any details/names, or she has to pay the money back?

You can't sign a financial settlement to "drop charges." One is civil and one is criminal. You sign a settlement to end a civil lawsuit.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

View attachment 571447
If I was Dubé and I was innocent and my agent released a statement like this when other players have released statements specifically stating that they were not there that night, I would fire my agent.

Yeah, maybe I'm just reading way too much into these things, but the above statements don't seem to deny taking part. They seem to imply the whole "she consented, so I did nothing wrong" instead of "I didn't have sex with her" or "I wasn't there".

 

[DaveMatthew]

Here's my take. If you have time to waste further, go back and re-read this thread through this lens:

If anyone is puzzled by the amazingly high number of idiotic posts, don't be.

While the internet is a treasure trove of idiotic postings, thoughts, and musings, those are often random, and really only reflect a small slice of the total dark matter of idiocy that is out there. Only a small slice because of laziness to post the full idiocy. If idiocy was ever combined with industry - no, not the factories, the trait of hard work - well, we would be buried.

So why all the industry (hard work) at the idiocy we see here in this thread?

Well, allow me to attempt to convince you it isn't idiocy at all, it is sheer brilliance. And the more idiotic is it, the more we will see it.




First, think about rape-enabling culture.

For those in their fifties and sixties plus, we grew up in a Canada where it was legal for a man to rape their wife. Legal. Until January 4, 1983. Don’t believe me? Go look it up.

Legal.

I won’t go into other aspects – the “she asked for it (went to his room) so it’s ok”, “if she didn’t want it, why was she wearing skimpy clothes”, “if she didn’t want it, why didn’t she ‘invent an excuse’, such as having a yeast infection or menstruation to avoid a sexual interaction with <him> on the night in question.”

I know, right? Yeast infection, menstruation? You are thinking to yourself, don’t be so effing ridiculously toxic, Toxic, no one says those kinds of things. No one.

Except they do. Like, in court. Yesterday. July 21, 2022. A lawyer used that line of defense in court. Yesterday. I wrote it verbatim from the news report. Verbatim. The technical term is cut’n’paste. Did I mention that this was yesterday? It was. And I did.


So yeah, rape-enabling culture. Go back to the Paris opera house referenced in the Katz thread. Or Roman tablets (snapchat was still in its infancy back then). Rape-enabling culture. It’s so deeply ingrained, many don’t even see it as it parades right past them.
__________________________________

Now, let's go through the main points of idiocy (actually brilliance) we see in this thread one by one.

We'll begin with the "it's not a hockey problem, it's a society problem" tactic. Call it exhibit “R”.

As I stated in an earlier post, this is a tactic designed to deflect and trivialize assault cases and create the effect of discouraging victims from reporting. An idiotic (read, brilliant) post that attempts to falsely equate the toxic culture in hockey to the problems we have in society in general is not adding to the conversation – it is a deliberate attempt to defend rape-enabling culture. Discouraging victims from reporting. Tell me, what are the stats? 90% of rapes go unreported? Huh.

But there’s more. Here’s one of my very favourites: the “innocent until proven guilty” tactic. In a criminal court of law. Let’s call it exhibit “A”. (I know what you are thinking – “why is Toxic so idiotic, starting with exhibit ‘R’ before this one?” Well, yeah, I am pretty idiotic).

Anyway, exhibit “A” is truly brilliant, because while pretending to advocate for the rule of law etc or whatever you want to call the fundamental tenets of justice, those 90% of rapists, the ones that are never reported, just received not only a free pass, they also get a gold star of “innocence”. Combine that with the near-impossible standard for the burden of proof in a criminal court of law, and the remaining 10% of rapists have very little to fear that they will ever be “proven guilty”. “Innocent” rapists. Effing brilliant.

Remember what I wrote about “rape-enabling culture” above? No? Well, scroll up.

Ok, back now? Good. Now guess who designed and operates our criminal “justice” system. If you guessed that it was women with little or no power, you might want to rethink your guess. The fact that men could legally rape their wives in Canada until January 4, 1983 might give you a hint as to who designed and operates the system. Try guessing again.

So yeah, when I think of OJ and how he stabbed the mother of his children to death and her friend, and the overwhelming evidence in that case that he stabbed the mother of his children to death and her friend, I didn’t need a conviction in a criminal court to correctly conclude he stabbed the mother of his children and her friend to death, I could simply look at the ample evidence available that he stabbed the mother of his children to death and her friend and come to the correct conclusion that he stabbed the mother of his children to death and her friend.

I know, right? I write this like I sound like I didn’t even know he was acquitted in that criminal trial. But in fact I do know that, and that is why I don’t need to rely on criminal convictions when arriving at conclusions. I can look at the evidence and come up with my own conclusions. You know, ranges of probable outcomes etc etc. And I did it better than a criminal court. You could too. Of course, I might not be able to do any better than a civil court, which jury unanimously agreed with me. That he stabbed the mother of his children to death and her friend. Or maybe the jury threw darts at a board and just got lucky. Either way, I came to the correct conclusion. Based on the evidence.

Next we have the “it's best to wait for the investigations to conclude” tactic. Let’s call it exhibit “P”.

You know, investigations like the Hockey Canada "investigation". The one that didn’t interview over half the players. The one that was never concluded. Or the police investigation - that was closed. Except now it is under internal review. And the police can’t comment on anyway. You know, the investigations conducted by the institutions created and operated by women with little or no powe . . . oh wait. Yeah, wait. Wait until the investigations conclude. Like, if the victim hadn’t gone to civil court, not only would we not be waiting for the investigations to conclude, we would never had a clue about this massive cover-up and use of grassroots fees to fund a hush-money account to bury rape accusations. Yeah, rape-enabling culture is far worse off because of the public and government and sponsorship pressure, and would be far better off if everyone just waited for the conclusions of investigations from the above-mentioned institutions. Oh, did I mention that the Hockey Canada "investigation" is designed for character assassination of the plaintiff? I didn't? Huh.

Fourthly and finally, we have Exhibit “E” (no, not “D”, “E”. Pay attention). The “don’t report a rape without a lawyer at your side” tactic. I mean, that sounds like friendly, sensible advice. Right?

Wrong.

It wasn’t friendly, and it isn’t sensible. It’s idiocy, pure idiocy. And by that I mean it’s brilliant. Sheer brilliance. Because the post literally goes on to say “have fun in prison (even if you are totally innocent)”. Like could anything be more idiotic (brilliant), suggesting that someone who reports a gang rape would go to prison, and “even if they are totally innocent”? Like, in the very thread where the mom literally went to the police and reported a gang rape. The very same thread. Remember what I wrote above about the "it's not a hockey problem, it's a society problem" tactic? Yeah, go ahead, scroll up again, I’ll wait. I’m not going anywhere.

All done? Good. Make sure you have an ergonomically designed mouse and keyboard for all the scrolling, metatarsal syndrome is a thing. Well, for people who scroll with their feet, anyway.

So yeah, remember how falsely equating “it’s not a hockey problem it’s a society problem” is a deliberate rape-enabling culture tactic to discourage people from reporting rapes? It may surprise you to learn that lawyers are very expensive, most of us don’t have one on retainer 24/7, most of us probably only have one or two with us from 9 to 5 Mondays through Fridays. So yeah, if I hear about a rape on Friday 6pm, I sure as hell am not saying anything to the police until Monday 9am when I can bring along my constant workday companions, Dewey and Cheetum of the Howe Law Group. I know, right? The obvious next step is to cast doubt on rape claims because they delayed coming forward. That’s not idiotic, that’s brilliant. Brilliant for maintaining rape-enabling culture.

So there are four exhibits, all lettered up.
________________________________________

“But wait,” you say, “all that idiocy” (you say potaytoe, I say potahtoh, you say idiocy, I say brilliance) “is immediately debunked, why does it get re-hashed and spewed across our screens over and over and over and over and over . . . .”

“. . . and over and over and over and over . . . “


“. . . and over and over and over and over . . . “


“. . . and over and over and over and over . . . “


“. . . and over again. Why?” you say.

“Because,” I say.

Because it both deflects and delays. Ideally, the defense of rape-enabling culture hopes to preserve rape-enabling culture in its entirety. In perpetuity. Indubitably. If the constantly re-vomited idiocy (brilliance) changes the subject – or better yet gets the thread closed – it’s a victory for rape-enabling culture. Rape-enabling culture doesn’t fare well when the bright light of scrutiny is applied to it. And by doesn’t fare well I mean it becomes clear how disgusting and absolutely abhorrent it is, in case you might be wondering what I mean.

But failing that – failing deflection and the preservation of rape-enabling culture - each spewal of idiocy (brilliance) needs to be refuted.

Sadly, when falsehoods are repeated often enough without being exposed for the falsehoods they are, they will gain some measure of traction. Traction, not credibility – idiotic (brilliant) falsehoods will never gain any measure of credibility, but it’s moot. Not mute. Moot. Like the Ents. Traction is all the falsehoods need. The more spewal, the more effort that must be re-directed away from actually dismantling rape-enabling culture, and re-directed into refuting the idiocy. Meaning less efforts can be made towards dismantling rape-enabling culture, delaying the time when such an abhorrent culture is finally stamped out.

Brilliant.

You see where this is going, right? The more rape-enabling culture is begun to be dismantled – the more the deflect strategy fails – means the more the delay strategy will be implemented, with its continual spewal of idiocy that will need to be refuted every time it rears its ugly head.

But don’t be dismayed. The spewals – while unlimited in repetition - are limited in variety and predictable, we’ve seen them all and they have all been refuted. Just a quick copy’n’paste of a refutation and boom! Done. Then add a comment to bring the discussion back on track to the title of the thread.

Idiocy. It’s absolutely brilliant.


And totally disgusting.

I think you could have just written, "I've made up my mind about what happened and that's that." Which is fine. You can then act on that conclusion any way you like - stop watching games involving the Canadian team, boycott the NHL, pull your kids out of their leagues... it's up to you.

But there are systems and processes in place that will ultimately try to determine, as best as possible, what happened in that room and whether these players will face criminal, or professional, consequences. And those processes will play out in the coming months.

Maybe they get it wrong. But hopefully they get it right.

That's just the fact of it.

 

[I am toxic]

I think you could have just written, "I've made up my mind about what happened and that's that." Which is fine. You can then act on that conclusion any way you like - stop watching games involving the Canadian team, boycott the NHL, pull your kids out of their leagues... it's up to you.

But there are systems and processes in place that will ultimately try to determine, as best as possible, what happened in that room and whether these players will face criminal, or professional, consequences. And those processes will play out in the coming months.

That's just the fact of it.

Without public pressure like mine, there wouldn't have been government pressure, sponsors wouldn't have withdrawn, and those flawed systems designed more for character assassination of victims as opposed to actual justice would never have been re-opened.

That's just the fact of it.

And the more people are aware of the slimy tactics used to preserve rape-enabling culture, the sooner such a disgusting culture will be stamped out.

 

[Deuce22]

Speculating about a trade or a prospect's skill is fun and harmless.

Speculating about who's a rapist based on scraps of information and internet detective work is not fun and harmless.

Not the same thing.

Not to mention calling the players rapists in their posts.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Without public pressure like mine, there wouldn't have been government pressure, sponsors wouldn't have withdrawn, and those flawed systems designed more for character assassination of victims as opposed to actual justice would never have been re-opened.

That's just the fact of it.

And the more people are aware of the slimy tactics used to preserve rape-enabling culture, the sooner such a disgusting culture will be stamped out.

Public pressure and opinion have resulted in this case and allegation being re-opened, and rightfully so. That's a good thing.

But the public does not have all the information.

Public pressure and opinion will not affect the ultimate findings of the investigation, nor will it impact whether charges are eventually brought. And it shouldn't. That's also a good thing.

Saying that a broader, more thorough investigation needs to take place, by agencies other than Hockey Canada or the London Police, is not the same as saying that you already know with certainty what happened, punishment should be doled out, and justice won't be served unless it completely aligns with your belief of what took place.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I haven't so much as seen public calls for teams to release specific players, let alone calls for any specific players to go to jail.

Relax, the hockey boys will be fine, unless they have reason to not be so fine. They are not the victims.

 

[Deuce22]

Without public pressure like mine, there wouldn't have been government pressure, sponsors wouldn't have withdrawn, and those flawed systems designed more for character assassination of victims as opposed to actual justice would never have been re-opened.

That's just the fact of it.

And the more people are aware of the slimy tactics used to preserve rape-enabling culture, the sooner such a disgusting culture will be stamped out.

Both of these can be true. There is a slimy rape culture among the entitled and powerful. And all the players that are being accused on the internet may not be guilty.

 

[I am toxic]

Public pressure and opinion have resulted in this case and allegation being re-opened, and rightfully so. That's a good thing.

But the public does not have all the information.

Public pressure and opinion will not affect the ultimate findings of the investigation, nor will it impact whether charges are eventually brought. And it shouldn't. That's also a good thing.

Saying that a broader, more thorough investigation needs to take place, by agencies other than Hockey Canada or the London Police, is not the same as saying that you already know with certainty what happened, punishment should be doled out, and justice won't be served unless it completely aligns with your belief of what took place.

Ahhh, I was waiting for someone to post Exhibit D. Thanks for posting that.

Perfect information doesn't exist. There is no such thing as "all the information".

There is evidence, and we consider the evidence. When we reach a point where we strongly believe no further useful evidence is forthcoming, we reach a decision.

That decision could be a conclusion.

Or it could be a decision that no conclusion can be made.

But yeah, remember what I wrote about delay? Waiting for something that doesn't exist is one of the best - if not the best - way to delay.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Ahhh, I was waiting for someone to post Exhibit D. Thanks for posting that.

Perfect information doesn't exist. There is no such thing as "all the information".

There is evidence, and we consider the evidence. When we reach a point where we strongly believe no further useful evidence is forthcoming, we reach a decision.

That decision could be a conclusion.

Or it could be a decision that no conclusion can be made.

But yeah, remember what I wrote about delay? Waiting for something that doesn't exist is one of the best - if not the best - way to delay.

We don't consider the evidence. Law enforcement, crown attorneys, judges and unbiased juries consider the evidence. They then reach a decision. They had already reached a decision once, based on the available evidence at the time. They'll now re-examine the evidence, perhaps there's something new, or something was missed, and reach another decision, or set of decisions, in the coming weeks or month.

We, in this thread or on Twitter, don't have access to all the evidence and are in no position to make conclusions that should be taken as the "truth".

We can have our own opinions and can act on them as we see fit, but we need to acknowledge that they're nothing more than opinions.

 

[Samsquanch]

I haven't so much as seen public calls for teams to release specific players, let alone calls for any specific players to go to jail.

Relax, the hockey boys will be fine, unless they have reason to not be so fine. They are not the victims.

Lmao well thats because we dont know the names yet. they have not been released.

But you can believe with 100% certainty that they will be judged to be guilty by the public the moment their names do get released - faaaaar before they get the chance to defend themselves.

Im not defending anyone here, but lets not pretend like we live in a calm and rational society that waits for facts before making judgement.

 

[I am toxic]

We don't consider the evidence. Law enforcement, crown attorneys, judges and unbiased juries consider the evidence. They then reach a decision.

We, in this thread or on Twitter, don't have access to all the evidence and are in no position to make conclusions that should be taken as the "truth".

We can have our own opinions and can act on them as we see fit, but we need to acknowledge that they're nothing more than opinions.

We do consider the evidence. In fact, due to consideration of the evidence of Hockey Canada covering up serious allegations of a gang rape, this whole scandal has been uncovered, investigations (well, character assassination missions) have been re-opened, and the hush-money fund has been suspended. We. Do. We do.

We have to absolutely acknowledge that an opinion based on no evidence is far less worthy of sharing/acting on/etc than an opinion based on all the available evidence. We. We. Have. To. We have to.

The reality is, when making an opinion based on all the available evidence, it is going to be much more useful than an opinion that is based on no evidence at all. Reality. There's no denying it.

 

[Stylizer1]

Don't have kids

Learn to teach your kids how to respect themselves is a better avenue.

 

[Golden_Jet]

We do consider the evidence. In fact, due to consideration of the evidence of Hockey Canada covering up serious allegations of a gang rape, this whole scandal has been uncovered, investigations (well, character assassination missions) have been re-opened, and the hush-money fund has been suspended. We. Do. We do.

We have to absolutely acknowledge that an opinion based on no evidence is far less worthy of sharing/acting on/etc than an opinion based on all the available evidence. We. We. Have. To. We have to.

The reality is, when making an opinion based on all the available evidence, it is going to be much more useful than an opinion that is based on no evidence at all. Reality. There's no denying it.

Sure if you believe the guilty before innocent, as you do.
Decisions will be made when all the evidence is out, and that hasn’t happened yet. In due process we’ll have that.
Then you can shred whoever you want.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Brett Howden’s atatement said he had “no interaction, verbally or physcally, with the complainant”, which is oddly specific and doesn’t rule out him being there in the room.

 

[Stylizer1]

Would you say this if it was your daughter?

If my daughter put herself in that position I would be mad as hell at them for doing that and would give my daughter all the love she needed during this time. It doesn't excuse anyone but I would understand that both sides are at fault. I would hope through all the years of teaching my daughter what to and not do in life that she would be smart enough not put herself in that position.

 

[Tragedy]

If my daughter put herself in that position I would be mad as hell at them for doing that and would give my daughter all the love she needed during this time. It doesn't excuse anyone but I would understand that both sides are at fault. I would hope through all the years of teaching my daughter what to and not do in life that she would be smart enough not put herself in that position.

In what position exactly? Is it her fault she got raped? Was it what she was wearing?

 

[PostBradMalone]

Brett Howden’s atatement said he had “no interaction, verbally or physcally, with the complainant”, which is oddly specific.

Honestly it's clearer language than a number of the statements issued prior. And again, it's something the London Police investigation could rapidly dispute because they interviewed the eight players alleged to have had sexual contact with the victim.

 

[Stylizer1]

A lack of non-consent is not consent. Neither is "the impression".

Just because she gave to consent to have sex with one guy one time does not mean she gave consent to then get gangbanged by that guy and his buddies (nor for any further sexual activity with that guy, for that matter).

You have no idea how it went down and are assuming a lot. That is all I am saying. You don't know if she welcomed a second person but didn't the 3rd and so on and so forth. You don't even know what happened because you are not privy to any information, only what is reported. If what happened was the worst crime possible then the police should have made arrests. Instead they chose the civil coarse where the only outcome is money.

If that happened with one of my children I would want the police to arrest every last person who was there, make a case that is bullet proof for a prosecutor, and watch them languish in jail. Then sue Hockey Canada and the players involved for damages. Seems this was done in reverse which makes the severity of the crime, if their was one, less.

I can't imaging going through this as a parent and not seeking justice from the start.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

It’s unfortunate but I expect to see vague statements from the remaining players tomorrow afternoon. That’s when they can release them without getting as much attention.

 

[4thline]

I can't imaging going through this as a parent and not seeking justice from the start.

You mean like going directly to the police only to have your daughter be guilted, intimidated, and otherwise manipulated into retracting the complaint?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

If my daughter put herself in that position I would be mad as hell at them for doing that and would give my daughter all the love she needed during this time. It doesn't excuse anyone but I would understand that both sides are at fault. I would hope through all the years of teaching my daughter what to and not do in life that she would be smart enough not put herself in that position.

I really hope you never have daughters because it sounds like every bad thing that happens to them you'd somehow put the blame solely on their shoulders for not making smarter decisions.

In this case, you seem to think that if a girl is OK with going to a guy's hotel room to have sex with him, she should also be expecting to have to have sex with 7 of his friends as well.

 

[Stylizer1]

Wonder why so few victims come forward and so few rapists get convicted? It just takes on stylizer on a jury...

If I were on the jury I would look at all of the facts involved and not be prejudice about it. You know the way jury's are supposed to operate as opposed to the lynch mob here. I am only interested in the truth and not everything else that is involved.

 

[Langdon Alger]

Learn to teach your kids how to respect themselves is a better avenue.

To respect others as well.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

You have no idea how it went down and are assuming a lot. That is all I am saying. You don't know if she welcomed a second person but didn't the 3rd and so on and so forth. You don't even know what happened because you are not privy to any information, only what is reported. If what happened was the worst crime possible then the police should have made arrests. Instead they chose the civil coarse where the only outcome is money.

If that happened with one of my children I would want the police to arrest every last person who was there, make a case that is bullet proof for a prosecutor, and watch them languish in jail. Then sue Hockey Canada and the players involved for damages. Seems this was done in reverse which makes the severity of the crime, if their was one, less.

I can't imaging going through this as a parent and not seeking justice from the start.

You forgot the part where you’d sit your daughter down and tell them they’re partially to blame for getting into the situation to begin with.