Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault)

[wetcoast]

You lied.... You claimed I said something I didn't. Why did you feel a need to do that? It was self serving.

I wouldn't bother with him as he does that then portrays a narrative about the posters that don't agree with him and then.....it's all baffling to say the least but it obviously makes him feel good as facts or even a lack of them don't seem to matter.

 

[Voight]

Me neither. From my experience, thats more of a womans fantasy. Heard many girls say that is their kinky fantasy.

A guys fantasy is generally him alone with lots of women.

(Just my experience though)

Which I never understood either, seems degrading, but to each their own I guess

 

[OG6ix]

This might not be a bad thing if you care for Sports (plural) in this country. The amount of funding hockey got over the other sports was ridiculously unproportioned. This country has changed a lot since the 70s and 80s.

 

[wetcoast]

Uh


I’m not playing your bullshit game

I hope that you are being sincere as you have added nothing to the conversation and in fact seem to be trolling with drive by comments with little regards to the facts of the case (what little we know of them)

 

[Voight]

It's a business issue for them. They need to maintain their image and their brand.

After the Kyle Beach and Logan Mailloux stories, and the sloppy sloppy handling of them by the league and respective teams, the NHL and the sport of hockey have an image problem. This story is going to make that much worse, especially if the players involved are seen to get off with no repercussions.

Sure, there will probably be an attempt to weasel out of real punishment -- the players will each do some kind of tearful apology and talk about how they need to learn and become a better person, maybe commit to some kind of sexual harassment training -- but I just doubt that will fly, especially in most of the Canadian markets.

I can imagine that if it goes all the way to voiding player(s) contracts that some of those players will fight that in court. No idea how that would turn out.

Honestly it will. People will forget about this after its over and done with. News cycle will have something else to report about.

Its not a direct comparable, but everyone seemed to forget about the Lewinsky scandal after the impeachment trial was over. & that was a worldwide news story. Same goes for many other things of this nature.

 

[Craigo85]

I find it very interesting that people assume the 8 guys are rapists and say things like, why would you need to video the girl confirming her consent?

Ummm ... maybe because of situations like this? Sounds like it was a gang-bang or a gang-rape. If you're a bunch of future millionaires and it was a gang-bang, don't you think you may want some confirmation of consent in case something like this happens after?

What happens if the guys were out drinking and were drunk too, were there 9 rapes that night or just 1?

What if the guys were impaired and after the event they started to realize they should have documented the consent, so they did the video after?

Also, a 6 or 11 second video isn't enough ... okay ... do they need to film the whole thing then?

I'm not saying I believe one side or the other yet, we don't know enough. Nobody involved has actually spoken in a court room under oath, all we've heard are lawyers speaking or filing documents on their clients' behalf.

But our society seems to have regressed 200 years and are ready with pitchforks to round people up.


We've heard:
- 2 videos claiming there was consent (1 before, 1 after)
- her saying she was really drunk
- several texts where she calls the event a mistake
- she said she felt she was being made fun of
- she said she felt taken advantage of (she could have meant assaulted/raped, she could have meant in hindsight 8 guys was too much)

What toxicology can — and can’t — tell us about alcohol and consent

There is no blood alcohol level that automatically means someone is unable to consent to sex.

www.thestar.com

It'll be difficult to prove she was unable to give consent. Look at this article:

But, as observed by Justice Mara Greene in her ruling, that question may not be helped much by such measurements.

There is no blood alcohol level that automatically means someone is unable to consent to sex.

And there is also no way to definitively establish cognitive capacity by looking at a blood-alcohol level.

The most he would be able to point out if a blood-alcohol level was so high the person would likely be unconscious or close to it — usually upwards of 300 mg of alcohol in 100 mL of blood, testified Daryl Mayers, an experienced toxicologist with the Centre of Forensic Sciences, during this trial.

He also testified that there is no direct link between a decline in motor skills and cognitive capacity, referring to cases where impaired drivers are too drunk to sit in a chair but can still make an informed decision about whether to contact a lawyer.

In this case, the range of possible blood alcohol levels for the complainant at the time she was in the hotel elevator is at the highest 225 mg of alcohol in 100 mL of blood and at the lowest 130 mg of alcohol in 100 mL of blood.

There is no way to establish what signs of intoxication a person will show at a certain blood alcohol level, even if you tried to recreate conditions in a lab, Mayers said.

Toxicologists can only provide the general behaviour or effects expected at various blood alcohol levels.

In her ruling, Greene also noted that she could not rely on the complainant experiencing an alcohol-induced blackout to make a finding on whether she had the capacity to consent.

It might seem like common sense that if someone drinks enough that they blackout, they are too drunk to consent to sex.


But Mayers explained that, from the limited understanding we have of blackouts and when they occur, it’s not that simple.

During a blackout, the ability to turn a short-term memory into long-term memory is disrupted, Mayers told the court.

They are usually linked to a rapid rise in blood alcohol concentration level to 150 mg of alcohol in 100 mL of blood or thereabouts — though it could be lower or higher —- usually stemming from rapidly drinking spirits on an empty stomach.

But, he continued, if and when a blackout happens is dependant on the individual and it doesn’t happen every time — blackouts are unpredictable.

 

[Cootsfanclub]

I find it very interesting that people assume the 8 guys are rapists and say things like, why would you need to video the girl confirming her consent?

Ummm ... maybe because of situations like this? Sounds like it was a gang-bang or a gang-rape. If you're a bunch of future millionaires and it was a gang-bang, don't you think you may want some confirmation of consent in case something like this happens after?

What happens if the guys were out drinking and were drunk too, were there 9 rapes that night or just 1?

What if the guys were impaired and after the event they started to realize they should have documented the consent, so they did the video after?

Also, a 6 or 11 second video isn't enough ... okay ... do they need to film the whole thing then?

I'm not saying I believe one side or the other yet, we don't know enough. Nobody involved has actually spoken in a court room under oath, all we've heard are lawyers speaking or filing documents on their clients' behalf.

But our society seems to have regressed 200 years and are ready with pitchforks to round people up.


We've heard:
- 2 videos claiming there was consent (1 before, 1 after)
- her saying she was really drunk
- several texts where she calls the event a mistake
- she said she felt she was being made fun of
- she said she felt taken advantage of (she could have meant assaulted/raped, she could have meant in hindsight 8 guys was too much)

What toxicology can — and can’t — tell us about alcohol and consent

There is no blood alcohol level that automatically means someone is unable to consent to sex.

www.thestar.com

It'll be difficult to prove she was unable to give consent. Look at this article:

One of the TSN articles said that that was increasingly common for sexual assault cases and that a video in itself isn't adequate to prove she consented without more context.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

I hope that you are being sincere as you have added nothing to the conversation and in fact seem to be trolling with drive by comments with little regards to the facts of the case (what little we know of them)

Thanks for your analysis

 

[Tyrus]

8 hockey players thought it was ok to have a gang bang with a drunk girl and posters are defending that?

If you think casual group sex where alcohol is abused isn't a frequent part of society I'd suggest you go have a look at Feeld or any swingers party near you.

Funny enough, those things tend to happen more frequently when inhibitions are subdued.

So until further proof is presented that the act wasn't consentual, which would make it a gang rape rather than a gang bang, I don't see a point in defending or admonishing either party.

I do agree that while gang bangs, in their consentual nature, aren't wrong, it is a rather stupid idea to take part in one as a potential pro athlete.

 

[YearsintheWilderness]

Parsing the statements issued by players is quite interesting. Some of the statements are not like the others.

And, consent cannot be given after the fact.

 

[H3ckt1k]

If you think casual group sex where alcohol is abused isn't a frequent part of society I'd suggest you go have a look at Feeld or any swingers party near you.

Funny enough, those things tend to happen more frequently when inhibitions are subdued.

So until further proof is presented that the act wasn't consentual, which would make it a gang rape rather than a gang bang, I don't see a point in defending or admonishing either party.

I do agree that while gang bangs, in their consentual nature, aren't wrong, it is a rather stupid idea to take part in one as a potential pro athlete.

Is it more believable to you that she would consent to something like that as opposed to her not consenting?

 

[Craigo85]

One of the TSN articles said that that was increasingly common for sexual assault cases and that a video in itself isn't adequate to prove she consented without more context.

While a video may not be the only evidence needed, it is still a piece of evidence.

So I'll ask again, if a video isn't enough, and in our society now where lots of people are ready to lynch the accused .... what would be enough for the guys in this case?

 

[DaveMatthew]

Parsing the statements issued by players is quite interesting. Some of the statements are not like the others.

And, consent cannot be given after the fact.

The "statements game" is wild. On the one hand, nobody seems to believe the player's assertion that this was consensual. On the other hand, the second a player releases a social media statement saying they did nothing wrong, they're seemingly cleared in the eyes of the media and fans and people move to the next player on the list and call him a rapist.

If players are lying about this being a consensual encounter, they could also easily be lying in their statements. Or, no one could be lying.

Everyone just needs to let the investigation take place.

 

[Brightwing]

8 hockey players thought it was ok to have a gang bang with a drunk girl and posters are defending that?

Rest of the story is just window dressing

If it was one player and she had morning after regrets sure lets talk about consent but he went and got his friends

I think people have watched too much porn if they think this stuff spontaneously happens. The scenario itself screams at the very least of coersion. It's disgusting. And before you guys say, oh some people have kinky sex lives, yeah they do. And those people who engage safe, sane and consensual kinks know that you don't do it with drunk people or without setting boundaries ahead of time. I don't know if this case meets the threshold of a criminal conviction without more details, but even if it doesn't, it's misogynist and disgusting. That poor girl.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

People have way too much faith in the statements coming out. Most of them mean f*** all.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Is it more believable to you that she would consent to something like that as opposed to her not consenting?

I believe the goal of the multiple investigations launched is to answer this exact question.

Until those investigations are completed, no one has any idea which is more believable.

 

[Tyrus]

And, consent cannot be given after the fact.

That's a weird way to phrase it.

Consent can for sure be reaffirmed after an event, especially if all the ongoing parameters of that event weren't known prior, and thus the content of the consent somewhat changed during the event.

It can also be clearly stated after an event if it wasn't clearly stated before since not all events without clearly stated consent are nonconsentual in nature.

 

[Evergreen]

They could, but the police would need overwhelming evidence in order to get a guilty verdict without the cooperation of the victim.
And by taking the settlement, she and her reps have essentially excluded themselves from the matter, as one of the conditions of the settlement would have been to not have any comment on this matter going forward.
If the police had this "smoking gun" evidence, then her legal team is the most inept group of morons around as they would have been looking at a slam-dunk case.

This looks more and more like a case where justice never gets truly meted out and doubts linger forever.

I don’t know the law in Canada, but in the US (and I am almost positive it is the same in Canada) you cannot enforce a gag clause in a settlement contract as it relates to cooperating with a criminal investigation. The settlement agreement can prevent the victim from filing a civil suit or providing info to the media, but they can’t prevent her from cooperating in a police investigation.

 

[DaveMatthew]

People have way too much faith in the statements coming out. Most of them mean f*** all.

You haven't seen the social media posts where people have scratched out and cleared the players who've released statements and compiled a list of those they know are guilty?

It's bizarre.

The same people who are so convinced a vicious crime took place and won't consider any other possibility see a 3 sentence screenshot on Instagram and say "Oh cool, you didn't do it because you said you didn't do it. Good enough for me, it must have been that other guy. Good luck next season!"

 

[Tyrus]

Is it more believable to you that she would consent to something like that as opposed to her not consenting?

My friends jumped out of a plane last weekend for one of my best mate's birthday.

I'm terrified of heights and it is unbelievable to me that anyone would ever consent to go skydiving, I've been unable to even fully watch the videos they sent of the event in the group chat, yet here we are.

I'd wager society as a whole would do a lot better if people worried less about what's believable to them and more about what's concretely provable.

 

[H3ckt1k]

My friends jumped out of a plane last weekend for one of my best mate's birthday.

I'm terrified of heights and it is unbelievable to me that anyone would ever consent to go skydiving, I've been unable to even fully watch the videos they sent of the event in the group chat, yet here we are.

I'd wager society as a whole would do a lot better if people worried less about what's believable to them and more about what's concretely provable.

I'd wager society as a whole would do a lot better if we didn't have people equating a gang rape to skydiving

 

[OG6ix]

If you think casual group sex where alcohol is abused isn't a frequent part of society I'd suggest you go have a look at Feeld or any swingers party near you.

I don't know what society you live in but this is not common. Sure there is a swinger culture but it's nowhere near as adopted as your post suggests. This is sickinging and I can't believe people such as yourself are defending it.

Imagine you had a consenting Daughter and all of sudden there are 6 other jocks that show up with their hormones raging.

 

[Help]

chiming in,

gangbanger here, if that matters

have never agreed to settle for 3.55M from a secret fund for uninsurable liabilities with any of the participants (some of whom are men and women of standing). generally not something you'd do if everything was consensual, enthusiastically and continuously throughout. particularly when your organization has stated explicitly that they don't settle on frivolous claims

my two cents on the matter

 

[Tyrus]

I'd wager society as a whole would do a lot better if we didn't have people equating a gang rape to skydiving

They are both perfectly legal acts that people consent to and take pleasure in. The link between the two is the fact that I have a hard time believing people in their right mind would consent to either and yet plenty still do, thus answering your question.

It doesn't matter what I find believable, because I could believe in a lot of foolish things. What matters is what can be proven with concrete evidence to have happened.

Everything outstide of that is provided by our own biases and preferences and probably shouldn't be of much importance in a discussion about alleged criminality acts and potential guilt or innocence.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

The inverse is also true. Where are all the people who were convinced that Patrick Kane was a rapist who should have been thrown out of the league?

That waiting for an investigation for the facts to come out in an allegation like this before coming to a conclusion is frowned upon now is... bizarre.

It's okay, you don't need to have an instant take on everything. Investigations take time.

Considering we have a large demographic here who ignore what is going on, yes it’s quite a concern.

Every single time, we have people saying oh well this isn’t a hockey exclusive issue and more concerned with the privilege White boys who get treated with baby gloves whenever they do something wrong. And they see absolutely nothing wrong.