Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault)

[Magnum23]

Honestly the faster this ends the better it is for everybody. If the allegations are true, the 8 get what they deserved.

Meanwhile, the girl can find some closure without seeing it in the media everyday and the others who weren’t involved don’t have a cloud over their name

 

[99ovr]

Haven’t been following this thread lately. Can someone explain what’s going on now?
Was it consensual? Was it not?
Is this now a just a issue about the leadership of hockey Canada?

Very questionable situation, was definitely consensual to an extent but not remotely close to the brutal gang rape that was initially portrayed by the media and the victim. The best way to put it is if a college student did this he'd get kicked out of school vs. going to jail.

 

[Craigo85]

I'm just listening to the Dangle podcast that had Westhead on it.

He said her filing for the civil case claimed she had consensual sex with John Doe 1.

If that's the case ... then it sounds like alcohol shouldn't be something we need to discuss anymore?

Sounds like the only question should be whether she consented or withdrew consent during the event.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Considering we have a large demographic here who ignore what is going on, yes it’s quite a concern.

Every single time, we have people saying oh well this isn’t a hockey exclusive issue and more concerned with the privilege White boys who get treated with baby gloves whenever they do something wrong. And they see absolutely nothing wrong.

a) it isn't a hockey exclusive issue, although yes, hockey culture is very problematic
b) it's an issue where privilege and wealth are factors, not necessarily race (see: Deshaun Watson)
c) there's nothing wrong with waiting for an investigation to take place, and for the facts of that investigation to be released, before concluding whether someone is/isn't guilty of a crime

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

a) it isn't a hockey exclusive issue, although yes, hockey culture is very problematic
b) it's an issue where privilege and wealth are factors, not necessarily race (see: Deshaun Watson)
c) there's nothing wrong with waiting for an investigation to take place, and for the facts of that investigation to be released, before concluding whether someone is/isn't guilty of a crime

A) it’s happening in hockey. Just because it’s not exclusive to hockey doesn’t mean you don’t address it for f***s sake.

B) I’m talking hockey, not other sports.

C) why do you guys never think of the victim of the crime?

 

[H3ckt1k]

They are both perfectly legal acts that people consent to and take pleasure in. The link between the two is the fact that I have a hard time believing people in their right mind would consent to either and yet plenty still do, thus answering your question.

It doesn't matter what I find believable, because I could believe in a lot of foolish things. What matters is what can be proven with concrete evidence to have happened.

Everything outstide of that is provided by our own biases and preferences and probably shouldn't be of much importance in a discussion about alleged criminality acts and potential guilt or innocence.

Would you feel the same way if this was your sister or close friend coming to you about them being sexually assaulted? "Sounds like you had a bad time but where's your concrete evidence that this happened the way you said it did?" I mean I'm going to guess nobody would in the first place based on the answers you're giving in this thread but yeesh

 

[newfy]

I believe the goal of the multiple investigations launched is to answer this exact question.

Until those investigations are completed, no one has any idea which is more believable.

Seriously, how do people not realise this is what everyone should be doing?

On one hand, lots of sexual assault takes place and hockey culture is definitely not innocent so it seems believable.

On the other hand, theres allegedly text messages of this girl saying she only felt bad after the fact and it was her parents who brought things forward. Feeling bad after the fact doesnt make it a sexual assault, either.

I dont think its as weird as some on here/twitter do that they got a video, these kids have multi million dollar contracts so doing a video like that makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, its not unreasonable to think they made her do it to help them look innocent. Group sex in that generation also isnt as rare as a lot of people seem to think, I wont say its common but if youre under 30 I bet most people know multiple people who have been involved in it

What I do know is that people jumping to conclusions is stupid, and people saying as soon as the names come out their contracts should be immediately cancelled is a major overreaction

 

[Tyrus]

I don't know what society you live in but this is not common. Sure there is a swinger culture but it's nowhere near as adopted as your post suggests. This is sickinging and I can't believe people such as yourself are defending it.

My point was that group sex exists. It is a part of the life of many adults, many more than a lot of people would think, and so long as it is consentual between all parties involved it isn't my place to label it ''wrong''.

Consent is the key factor at play. Gang bangs are not gang rapes, group sex isn't group rape, that much should be obvious and was clearly stated in the post you quoted.

Imagine you had a consenting Daughter and all of sudden there are 6 other jocks that show up with their hormones raging.

Is she consenting to engage in sexual acts with those six other people too?

If she is, then it's her right, no matter what or how strongly opposed my opinion about it would be. If she isn't, then they would obviously be rapists if they ignored her lack of consent and forced/coerced her into having sex with them.

 

[robertmac43]

Can people stop being lazy, enough with the "it isn't exclusively a hockey problem".... As if that means anything after the year this sport has had with Kyle Beach's story and now this.

Rape is a massive problem across many sports but it's CLEARLY a problem in our sport.

 

[Bevans]

The hunt for the identity of the 8 players is fueled, in part, by a desire individualize an institutional issue.

It seems clear that there were individuals who participated and individuals who knew about it (by virtue of seeing it or hearing about it).

All of these people are exposed to potential liability.

Quenville is currently not allowed to coach in the NHL even though he wasn't personally involved in the Kyle Beach incident.

The number of people who could face repercussions for this level of culpability is far higher than 8. This situation is radioactive for many people and orgs.

 

[H3ckt1k]

Can people stop being lazy, enough with the "it isn't exclusively a hockey problem".... As if that means anything after the year this sport has had with Kyle Beach's story and now this.

Rape is a massive problem across many sports but it's CLEARLY a problem in our sport.

I've never understood this argument people are using here either. Are we not on a hockey forum? Should we not for the most part be talking about how this pertains to hockey? We can accept that it's a problem in society while also accepting it's a HUGE problem in hockey culture

 

[Stopsight]

People have way too much faith in the statements coming out. Most of them mean f*** all.

I would like to point out that based on the number of participants vs the number of players on the team, most of them do mean f*** all. Most of them were not involved.

 

[Tyrus]

Would you feel the same way if this was your sister or close friend coming to you about them being sexually assaulted? "Sounds like you had a bad time but where's your concrete evidence that this happened the way you said it did?" I mean I'm going to guess nobody would in the first place based on the answers you're giving in this thread but yeesh

Of course I wouldn't care that due process be held if someone close to me was assaulted, but I understand why my inherent lack of neutrality would be problematic and why the justice system shouldn't be and isn't based on the desires of the plaintiff's family.

Society and a plaintiff's social circle don't have the same role to play in legal matters, that's why you're not allowed to hold jury duty for one of your loved ones.

 

[MXD]

Can people stop being lazy, enough with the "it isn't exclusively a hockey problem".... As if that means anything after the year this sport has had with Kyle Beach's story and now this.

Rape is a massive problem across many sports but it's CLEARLY a problem in our sport.

Besides... It's a hockey board. Discussions on the health of the sport are totally appropriate.

I wouldn't care much about sexual assults and covering ups by National Federations in Basketball and Cricket, because I don't care about these sports. But I care about hockey, so I care about sexual assults and related f***ups in the hockey world.

 

[pcruz]

I don’t know the law in Canada, but in the US (and I am almost positive it is the same in Canada) you cannot enforce a gag clause in a settlement contract as it relates to cooperating with a criminal investigation. The settlement agreement can prevent the victim from filing a civil suit or providing info to the media, but they can’t prevent her from cooperating in a police investigation.

It would not preclude her from aiding the criminal probe, but she would need to navigate her statements to the police in a manner that would not be in violation of the settlement agreement.

 

[New User Name]

Can people stop being lazy, enough with the "it isn't exclusively a hockey problem".... As if that means anything after the year this sport has had with Kyle Beach's story and now this.

Rape is a massive problem across many sports but it's CLEARLY a problem in our sport.

Of course it's a problem in hockey. But some on here are ignoring the fact it's a problem in society at large.

Calling hockey players scum as some have alluded to is flat out wrong.

Remember the allegations of a pedophile ring at the highest level of the US government?

Not to mention the very widespread sexual abuse claims against the catholic church.

What happened to this young lady is horrific and should be properly investigated and if necessary charges filed.

I agree Hockey Canada seems to have dropped the ball here but they're certainly not alone in attempting to keep it hush hush.

Damn, at one time Christian churches believed women should be subservient to their husbands. Sadly many still think that way.

As I said before, we've come along, but we haven't even crossed the half way mark as a society.

 

[OG6ix]

My point was that group sex exists. It is a part of the life of many adults, many more than a lot of people would think, and so long as it is consentual between all parties involved it isn't my place to label it ''wrong''.

Consent is the key factor at play. Gang bangs are not gang rapes, group sex isn't group rape, that much should be obvious and was clearly stated in the post you quoted.


Is she consenting to engage in sexual acts with those six other people too?

If she is, then it's her right, no matter what or how strongly opposed my opinion about it would be. If she isn't, then they would obviously be rapists if they ignored her lack of consent and forced/coerced her into having sex with them.

The report said she consented with the original guy and then all of sudden the gang joined. Hockey culture is definitely disgusting. For all the "We don't have individuality and it's all about the team" I guess these guys took that seriously.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Would you feel the same way if this was your sister or close friend coming to you about them being sexually assaulted? "Sounds like you had a bad time but where's your concrete evidence that this happened the way you said it did?" I mean I'm going to guess nobody would in the first place based on the answers you're giving in this thread but yeesh

Obviously not. But you that the family members and friends of a victim (or of the accused) cannot be on a jury, or part on the investigation, to determine whether a crime took place, right?

The families of the victim will feel strongly in one way. The families of the accused will feel strongly in a different way. Their feelings are not the facts.

The facts have yet to come out.

That's why we need a 3rd party investigation to take place to determine what actually happened and whether it rose to the level of a crime.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

I would like to point out that based on the number of participants vs the number of players on the team, most of them do mean f*** all. Most of them were not involved.

And if everyone on the team comes out with a statement, you'll believe all of them or are you just going to pick and choose?

 

[Cootsfanclub]

While a video may not be the only evidence needed, it is still a piece of evidence.

So I'll ask again, if a video isn't enough, and in our society now where lots of people are ready to lynch the accused .... what would be enough for the guys in this case?

I don't disagree and the article says that's true in these situations. They also say that it is not proof because it lacks context. A video under duress for example would not be evidence to bridge the gap into proof. That is the claim being made by the victim.

 

[iCanada]

Considering we have a large demographic here who ignore what is going on, yes it’s quite a concern.

Every single time, we have people saying oh well this isn’t a hockey exclusive issue and more concerned with the privilege White boys who get treated with baby gloves whenever they do something wrong. And they see absolutely nothing wrong.

I agree to some degree. I think it's clear we have an issue with hockey culture and sexual assault and we need to deal with it.

That being said, I think it's fair to point out that this mirrors the rest of our society in that basically every faculty of our population has the same battle with rape culture. I think ultimately it needs to be said and it needs to be a focus that we don't just fish out the problem child and then move on, we need to fish out the problem child and make sure new ones don't appear... because if we don't this will happen again and again and again.

 

[H3ckt1k]

Obviously not. But you that the family members and friends of a victim (or of the accused) cannot be on a jury to determine whether a crime took place, right?

That's why we need a 3rd party investigation to take place to determine what actually happened and whether it rose to the level of a crime.

The families of the victim will feel strongly in one way. The families of the accused will feel strongly in a different way. Their feelings are not the facts.

The facts have yet to come out.

Obviously not, I only spew awful posts about women I don't know so that I can defend hockey bros that will never notice me!! If it was somebody close to me I'd support them 100%!!


I can't take some of you posters in this thread, it feels like I'm not talking to somebody that lives in the same society as me

 

[Dan Patrick]

I think this is the major issue with the situation that night. We don't really know any specifics at all but It seems two consenting adults were taking part in consensual sex. At some point 7 other people arrived in the room and we can only presume a conversation was had where some amount of either forced or willing consent was given. This is really crux of the issue with this case but presumably some kind of consent was given prior otherwise it much more likely would have been a criminal matter (though that's not 100% reliable either). There then proceeded some sexual acts between all parties. After the fact, the woman was videod giving consent but clearly that night or the next day felt uncomfortable, embarassed, regrettful, taken advantage of, or even forced. The nuance within what happened is really inviting a lot of people to drag in their own assumptions and preconceptions before getting the whole picture and it is possible we never actually know what happened.

If culpability is found on the part of the players I hope they are rightfully and thouroughly punished. I also hope that if the investigation finds that there is no clear signs of wrongdoing on the part of some or all the men in question people can accept that and move on.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Obviously not, I only spew awful posts about women I don't know so that I can defend hockey bros that will never notice me!! If it was somebody close to me I'd support them 100%!!


I can't take some of you posters in this thread, it feels like I'm not talking to somebody that lives in the same society as me

What are you talking about?

If these allegations are proven to be true, every single player should 100% face severe consequences. Nobody is arguing that. I'm certainly not.

But we don't know whether the allegations are true or not, yet. The investigations have just started. The findings haven't been released.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I don't care how kinky or open minded or promiscuous you are. Going from agreeing to sex with one individual and it turning into a suprise gangbang with 8 individuals is a huge shift.

Something that requires planning, and vetting of all parties well in advance and definitely while sober.

To suprise it on a drunk girl is big yikes.