Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault)

[Jeune Poulet]

Any comments from the Hawks organization having 2 more players under investigation?

Sadly, I haven't seen the media explore this angle much. They should.

There should be reporters calling teams, especially the Hawks and Sens, for comments. Asking what the teams think of the situation. Asking if they have inquired about their players from the 2018 WJC to make sure they weren't involved in the assault that led to a Hockey Canada payoff. What steps have they taken? What's their official stance?

 

[Melrose Munch]

And what if what you think happened didn't actually happen? The fact that some people are so obsessed with this case is a bit disturbing. There is a legal process for a reason and I don't think a bunch of amateur "sleuths" on a hockey forum are gonna crack the case by themselves.

Yeah, we all wanna know what happened and if wrongdoing is proven then the involved parties should be punished. But all of this speculation, trying to cross names off a list based on limited statements and displays of moral superiority is quite disturbing as well. How about everyone chill out and let the process play out?

People are obsessed because it's been a recent pattern in hockey at all levels.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

All I know is, I don't want any rapists on my team (or any NHL team, really).

I feel horrible for the victim. She didn't ask for any of this.

And on a selfish level, I feel sick to my stomach looking at my team and wondering if our two kids are a part of such a terrible crime.

Hockey Canada and the sporting world needs one hell of a culture change. Too many kids are getting away with shit and having massively inflated egos (and getting away with who knows what) simply for being good at sports. Society isn't supposed to work this way.

 

[pcruz]

So again...do you think Hockey Canada paid a quick settlement without going through insurance because they were simply feeling cheery and generous? Why would Hockey Canada do this if everything was done in good faith and there was legitimate consent?

It doesn't matter how you'd handle it as a parent. You're not living in that nightmare. Besides, I'm sure the family of the female want this nightmare to go away (it likely never will). Also a lawsuit doesn't go to criminal court.

Hockey Canada wouldn't have offered anything at all.

You've never been involved in a legal dispute before, this is quite obvious from your lack of knowledge on the process and the steps involved, so I'll lay them out for you to understand more clearly:

The goal of all legal cases is to come to a resolution. There are 3 possible outcomes that resolve the case:

Settlement out of trial
Absolution
Conviction

2 of these are resolutions wherein the defendants are not found to have committed the act(s) in the statement of claim (what we call not guilty).
1 of these is a resolution where the defendants are found guilty of the act(s) and punished accordingly.

The legal process for legal matters is actually quite simple and not too much guidance or interference from the plaintiff or defendant is necessary really.

1) A claim is brought forth by a person claiming to have been a victim of an injury, through her legal representatives.
2) Hockey Canada hires a legal team to defend them in this matter.
3) HC's legal team makes 2 separate analyses: what is the likelyhood that HC is found guilty in this matter; what is the expected cost of defending HC in this matter.
4) Options are brought to the officers in the company to weigh in on the options - whether to defend or to try and settle out of court. Defending means that HC's own legal team will conduct its own investigation into the matter in order to have more accurate prediction on what the outcome could be.
5) After a preliminary internal investigation by HC into the matter, it is presented with more accurate figures for defense and for potential settlement.
6) HC's legal team continuously offers a substantially reduced settlement offer to the plaintiff's legal team in hopes that it is accepted and the case can be closed without judgement.
7) Plaintiff's representatives come to the conclusion that they would also prefer to settle the case with some monetary pay-out instead of pursuing the matter fully.


The woman in this case, or more accurately her legal representatives, decided that they didn't want to pursue the matter to a resolution wherein the alleged perpetrators were identified and punished for their actions. They accepted a settlement with the caveat that the claim gets closed and nobody is punished for the act(s) made.

This is a case where everyone loses in my opinion.

HC is somehow made to be the bad guy for not defending itself to the fullest, and although legally not guilty, loses the PR battle.
The players on the teams are all guilty by association in the minds of some, even when it's quite obvious that they were not all part of the claim. Without knowing which players were actually part of the claim, all of them are lumped together.
The alleged victim got some money, sure. However, money doesn't make you forget what was obviously not a wanted interaction with others, and it doesn't offer any closure to the matter because nobody gets punished for it.

The only people who come out on top in this matter are the lawyers for both sides. Plaintiff's lawyers likely get a large cut of the settlement (30%), and the defendant's lawyers bill by the hour.

 

[BMOK33]

I disagree. I’m guessing many of these players are going to face discipline of some kind… a suspension by the NHL at minimum, having their contracts voided at maximum.

This is now just too big a story for it to be swept under the rug.

Without forensic evidence the leagues would be out of their minds to make a move like that based off words of a single person

 

[jbeck5]

The key element to any statement must be that the player in question was not present in that room at all during the time the events took place that night.

You will note many of them have stated exactly that - either they were not at the gala/in the country at all, or they were elsewhere in the hotel for the entire time the events took place.

Any statement simply denying wrongdoing isn't worth the paper it's written on, and is mealy-mouthed lawyer-legalese intended to deliberately deceive people into initially believing the person wasn't involved in the events. The only reason I can think of making such a deliberately deceitful statement is if in fact the person: absolutely was involved in the events, knows the events were wrong, and is is trying to weasel their way out of any culpability.

But maybe there is another reason to deliberately deceive others about one's involvement. If there is, then clarifying statements can be made subsequently and promptly to: clear up the matter, apologize for deliberately deceiving people, and begin to take ownership of and accountability for their involvement in the events that took place that night.

Couldn't one:
be present
not be involved
Not know there was a crime.
Assumed consent.
After finding out about the case, agreed to cooperate but only publicly said they weren't involved, but will give all the information they have to the police

What then?

 

[jbeck5]

The guys would know if the girl was drunk or not if they spent that much time with her, regardless if you think she gave consent or not, if you showed up in a room and there were 7 other guys and a drunk girl you'd walk back out if you were even half smart. Would be interesting to know the details of the invite from the main player to the others as that likely captures the intent.

There is a chance everyone involved was drunk. So if one has the excuse of being drunk, they all can.

I don't think being drunk is an excuse.

Sex is sex regardless of if the people are drunk or not. What matters is if they're giving consent.

If I walk into a room and 8 guys are having sex with a girl. I'm not worried if they're all drunk or all sober. I'm concerned if there's consent. If there appears to be consent, then it's just a good time. No need to walk out that room. You can essentially watch a free porno.

 

[joestevens29]

Lets not forget "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

Which then turned into "We were having sex to cope with my anxiety"

So I'm not exactly sure guys saying they weren't involved means much to me

 

[Reality Czech]

People are obsessed because it's been a recent pattern in hockey at all levels.

I don't blame people for being interested in the story and we should put pressure on HC and the court to do the right thing. I just think it's a bit irresponsible to try and ascertain guilt based on the limited information available to the public, and I don't think it's fair for people to attack others simply for telling everyone to take a deep breath and not rush to judgment.

Hopefully the truth will come out, and when that happens the responsible parties will have to deal with the consequences. I just feel like some people are a bit too personally invested in this story and it's hurting the discussion.

 

[Evergreen]

Police investigations are conducted to assess the prospects of obtaining a guilty verdict, not to prove people innocent.

The two options in court are guilty or not guilty.

Well right. That’s my point. The police don’t clear people of wrongdoing. They assess whether there is sufficient evidence to charge with a crime. Without the victim’s cooperation at the time, it would have been difficult to charge anyone involved. But the fact that charges weren’t filed does NOT actually clear anyone of wrongdoing as the agent here is claiming.

These same individuals could theoretically be charged at a later date and even found guilty at trial.

 

[jbeck5]

Personally, even if this was all 1000% consensual, I wouldn't do it. Like I want to share a girl with 7 of my friends. No thanks.

Me neither. From my experience, thats more of a womans fantasy. Heard many girls say that is their kinky fantasy.

A guys fantasy is generally him alone with lots of women.

(Just my experience though)

 

[Wondercarrot]

People are obsessed because it's been a recent pattern in hockey at all levels.

There’s nothing recent about it.
Hockey players are douchebags for the most part.

 

[jbeck5]

People are obsessed because it's been a recent pattern in hockey at all levels.

This isn't just hockey.

Sexual assaults have a recent pattern in life at all levels. Schools. Sports. Workplace. Police stations. Military. Public places. Sexual assault is everywhere. It's not some pattern in hockey. This isn't a "hockey problem", it's a world wide problem. Wherever men exist, we seem to get sexual assault cases.

 

[Bevans]

Well right. That’s my point. The police don’t clear people of wrongdoing. They assess whether there is sufficient evidence to charge with a crime. Without the victim’s cooperation at the time, it would have been difficult to charge anyone involved. But the fact that charges weren’t filed does NOT actually clear anyone of wrongdoing as the agent here is claiming.

These same individuals could theoretically be charged at a later date and even found guilty at trial.

A lawyer's job is to polish the turd.

 

[pcruz]

Before I leave this thread, I’m mainly curious as to why, with the information we currently have, are there so many incel sounding creeps already trying to invalidate her story in order to minimize what these clowns did.

I have a daughter and I’d go scorched earth if that happened to her. An 18 year old girl, likes a guy so she consents to sex with him. He then lets in 7 more guys, without her prior knowledge, who go at her for hours and she says she was “crying” and “attempted to leave multiple times”. All of this sounds okay to you guys? These guys sound like dudes worth standing up for?

So you agree with me:

You would not accept a settlement offer in any event and would push for trial in order to have the matter pushed into the public eye and hopefully have the perpetrators punished.

I fully agree with that sentiment. I would want the same. In fact, I'd get extremely angry if a settlement offer were even presented.

In this case, it was accepted. The alleged victim and her representatives did not choose to force Hockey Canada to defend itself.
They chose to not go through with the matter in the courts.
They chose to allow this case to be closed without anyone being punished.

 

[wetcoast]

The men who do this kind of shit can rot in hell if what we think happened, happened.

Except it seems likely that what you think happened didn't happen as there really isn't any evidence that has been presented.

This is the problem with the hysterical mob and coming to a conclusion without the total picture or check with little facts and a ton of speculation and a personal narrative.

Lawyers for players linked to alleged sexual assault to give NHL videos, text messages | TSN

As the NHL pursues its investigation into an alleged 2018 sexual assault involving eight former Canadian Hockey League players, lawyers for the players plan to turn over to the league two videos filmed with a cellphone during and after the incident, as well as 35 text messages sent between the...

www.tsn.ca

 

[New User Name]

There’s nothing recent about it.
Hockey players are douchebags for the most part.

As are boy scout leaders, priests, swimming instructors, teachers, older kids in private boarding schools, lacrosse players, baseball players, football players, basketball players, men in Hollywood.....etc etc etc..........the list goes on and on whereever you have humans

 

[Tyrus]

Hockey Canada and the sporting world needs one hell of a culture change.

The whole of society needs a culture change you mean. The common denominator is basically always ''people who have a huge monetary or political value get to bend the law to their will''.

We see it in the higher echelons of every sphere of society and it's sick.

 

[New User Name]

I now know why so many were murdered during the Salem witch trials.

Why not wait until we really know what happened?

Speculation is a disease and can have horrible consequences.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

A young man or woman who willingly and consensually agreed to take part in an eight on one gang bang is not going to go home and tell his/her mother.

That's the tricky part in all of this honnestly...

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Without forensic evidence the leagues would be out of their minds to make a move like that based off words of a single person

It's a business issue for them. They need to maintain their image and their brand.

After the Kyle Beach and Logan Mailloux stories, and the sloppy sloppy handling of them by the league and respective teams, the NHL and the sport of hockey have an image problem. This story is going to make that much worse, especially if the players involved are seen to get off with no repercussions.

Sure, there will probably be an attempt to weasel out of real punishment -- the players will each do some kind of tearful apology and talk about how they need to learn and become a better person, maybe commit to some kind of sexual harassment training -- but I just doubt that will fly, especially in most of the Canadian markets.

I can imagine that if it goes all the way to voiding player(s) contracts that some of those players will fight that in court. No idea how that would turn out.

 

[pcruz]

Well right. That’s my point. The police don’t clear people of wrongdoing. They assess whether there is sufficient evidence to charge with a crime. Without the victim’s cooperation at the time, it would have been difficult to charge anyone involved. But the fact that charges weren’t filed does NOT actually clear anyone of wrongdoing as the agent here is claiming.

These same individuals could theoretically be charged at a later date and even found guilty at trial.

They could, but the police would need overwhelming evidence in order to get a guilty verdict without the cooperation of the victim.
And by taking the settlement, she and her reps have essentially excluded themselves from the matter, as one of the conditions of the settlement would have been to not have any comment on this matter going forward.
If the police had this "smoking gun" evidence, then her legal team is the most inept group of morons around as they would have been looking at a slam-dunk case.

This looks more and more like a case where justice never gets truly meted out and doubts linger forever.

 

[Tyrus]

Before I leave this thread, I’m mainly curious as to why, with the information we currently have, are there so many incel sounding creeps already trying to invalidate her story in order to minimize what these clowns did.

Because, with the information we currently have, having a solid stance one way or the other is just wrong. We've been presented with no solid evidence either way, so acting like we did or drawing foregone conclusions shouldn't be acceptable.

The idiots claiming ''she obviously must be lying'' are just as misguided and intellectually dishonest as the idiots claiming ''these clowns obviously did it''.

You shouldn't be standing up for either party, you should remain neutral and supportive of both sides until any amount of evidence is presented.

 

[4thline]

Why not wait until we really know what happened?

98% of the facts are known and not in dispute. The only matter at question was whether she was a cheerful willing participant with possession of her faculties in a consensual act or either/both of intoxicated past the point of consent/ a grudging/hesitant participant that went along with the night while being coerced/convinced in a high pressure, high danger situation. She says the latter.

 

[Bevans]

Without forensic evidence the leagues would be out of their minds to make a move like that based off words of a single person

What a bizarre take.

Do people not understand there's a spectrum between opinion and a guilty conviction?

If you show up late every day you can be fired or Sued for breach of contract or not secure future work.

You don't require a criminal conviction for an employer or contractor to no longer want to be associated with you.