Can Connor McDavid break up the "big 4"?

[Hockeyville USA]

Crosby is the better leader and all around player. McDavid is the better pure offensive producer. McDavid not finishing on that chance with 7 minutes to go will haunt him until he gets a Cup

 

[Mohar Ikram]

Crosby is the better leader and all around player. McDavid is the better pure offensive producer. McDavid not finishing on that chance with 7 minutes to go will haunt him until he gets a Cup

And Crosby is maybe close but not close enough to torn the big 4. McDavid? Hohoho... that dude still have much much much much much much long way to go.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Crosby is closer to being outside the top 15 than he is to overtaking Lemieux.

I always hate the debate around leadership. What, specifically, has Crosby done as a leader? What, specifically, has McDavid failed to do?

We aren't in the locker room. We don't hear the bench conversations. We aren't in the gym or plane or restaurant or anything like that.

Leadership is far more than just a binary win/loss. And we just don't know enough to make any judgement on leadership.


McDavid laying an egg in game 7 will absolutely be part of his story. But why is Crosby getting patted on the back for sitting on the bench in game 7 while Maxine Talbot scored two goals in the Penguins 2-1 win?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby is the better leader and all around player.

Uh no.

McDavid is the superior player and it's not particularly close.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Uh no.

McDavid is the superior player and it's not particularly close.

Superior offensive producer. He's not elite defensively

 

[jigglysquishy]

Superior offensive producer. He's not elite defensively

Neither is Crosby.

I would give Crosby the defensive edge, but neither are anywhere near being a top defensive player in the league.

Crosby, McDavid, Ovechkin, and Jagr are all closer to each other defensively than they are to a Bergeron.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Superior offensive producer. He's not elite defensively

So exactly the same as Gretzky, Mario and Crosby?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Superior offensive producer. He's not elite defensively

The next time Crosby plays great defense will be the first time. He doesn't PK much, he has never shut anyone down, he is deployed ovewhelmingly for offense, and most tellingly, the Penguins bleed goals against with Crosby on the ice, and pretty much always have. There is no substance or evidence for this "Crosby is good at defense" narrative. It's just homers pumping their guy. It's a total failure of player evaluation.

 

[Beljavskij]

Well Crosby was rated 12th the last time this board did this type of ranking. I think that is probably a fair assesment

That was 6 years ago, and Crosby has added almost 500 points since then, a 2nd place in Hart voting, as well as a 4th place. All after his age 32 season. Shouldn't that move him up a bit or is he the exact same player he was 6 years ago?

Uh no.

McDavid is the superior player and it's not particularly close.

Thank you for your opinion. But that is all that it is... an opinion.

 

[Mohar Ikram]

Crosby is closer to being outside the top 15 than he is to overtaking Lemieux.

I always hate the debate around leadership. What, specifically, has Crosby done as a leader? What, specifically, has McDavid failed to do?

We aren't in the locker room. We don't hear the bench conversations. We aren't in the gym or plane or restaurant or anything like that.

Leadership is far more than just a binary win/loss. And we just don't know enough to make any judgement on leadership.


McDavid laying an egg in game 7 will absolutely be part of his story. But why is Crosby getting patted on the back for sitting on the bench in game 7 while Maxine Talbot scored two goals in the Penguins 2-1 win?

Why we focus so much on his derpyness in 2009 SCF?

Do we forget who scored the golden goal in 2010 Olympics?
Do we forget that Syd basically just destroy Sharks in cup clinching game in 2016?
Do we forget that Syd killed Pekka Rinne in game 5 of 2017 SCF?
Do we forget that Syd never lost the international tournaments since 2005 when he joined?

Syd has so many clutching moments that only McD ever dreamt of to replicate. End of.

 

[Beljavskij]

But why is Crosby getting patted on the back for sitting on the bench in game 7 while Maxine Talbot scored two goals in the Penguins 2-1 win?

Didn't Crosby get injured early in the 2nd period?
Wouldn't exactly call it "getting patted on the back" more of a missed opportunity for Crosby, but hey they still won.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

That was 6 years ago, and Crosby has added almost 500 points since then, a 2nd place in Hart voting, as well as a 4th place. All after his age 32 season. Shouldn't that move him up a bit or is he the exact same player he was 6 years ago?



Thank you for your opinion. But that is all that it is... an opinion.

takes more than that to move up in the 5-20 logjam of (IMO) Hasek, Roy, Plante, Bourque, Shore, Harvey, Lafleur, Hull (Sr), Jagr, Richard, Ovechkin, Messier, Beliveau

 

[DitchMarner]

Plus/minus is far from my favorite stat, but I think it's worth pointing out that McDavid does have the best combined plus/minus in the playoffs over the last three years:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

I'm sure many of his advanced stats (GF%, xGF% etc) are strong as well. Bottom line is I don't think he makes any less of a positive impact on goal differential at even strength in the playoffs than Crosby did in his prime.


For reference, Crosby ranks just inside the top 20 in plus/minus in the playoffs between 2016 and 2018:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

It is just plus/minus, but if anyone has anything that suggests Crosby was better at driving goal differential positively in his playoff prime (other than just, "I think he's better defensively" or, "I think he was a better leader"), I'd like to see it.

 

[Beljavskij]

takes more than that to move up in the 5-20 logjam of (IMO) Hasek, Roy, Plante, Bourque, Shore, Harvey, Lafleur, Hull (Sr), Jagr, Richard, Ovechkin, Messier, Beliveau

Out of those players who and which body of work do you place before Crosby?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Out of those players who and which body of work do you place before Crosby?

I only have Beliveau and Harvey ahead of Crosby for non-Big Four players.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Out of those players who and which body of work do you place before Crosby?

Hasek, Beliveau, Bourque, Roy, Lafleur for sure and Harvey, Hull, Jagr right behind him. I have Crosby 10th at the moment but will fall to 11 when McDavid is done (he's penciled in to the 5-9 range but just gotta see where his career totals end up)

 

[Michael Farkas]

Lafleur...? Ahead of Crosby and McDavid...? I'm misreading that, right?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Lafleur...? Ahead of Crosby and McDavid...? I'm misreading that, right?

McDavid is in my 5th best ever, just keeping him in the margin until his career is done.

Yeah, I have Lafleur ahead of Crosby. They have nearly identical careers, down to losing significant portions of prime seasons to injuries. 2 Harts and 3 Pearsons each, 3 Ross for Lafleur to 2 for Crosby, 2 Smythes for Crosby to 1 for Lafleur. Differentiator IMO is Crosby's calling card is leadership and winning and Lafleur did it a little bit better. 5 Cups, 4 as the leader of the team and led the playoffs in scoring for 3 of them.

It's honestly a close call and can easily be argued the other way

 

[Michael Farkas]

Crosby's "calling card" is not an intangible. It's not some mystery. He was the best player in the NHL for 10ish years. His prime is essentially twice as long as Lafleur's, on a worse team, in a more competitive era.

I'm not gonna convince you, nor am I gonna try because this just too far in outer space to possibly return to earth...but man alive, I don't know how that can be justified...

I often think about whether or not Lafleur was even the best player on that team...I'd never think for a second to try to hold him against Crosby or McDavid at this point...well, interesting, if nothing else...

 

[CanadienShark]

Why we focus so much on his derpyness in 2009 SCF?

Do we forget who scored the golden goal in 2010 Olympics?
Do we forget that Syd basically just destroy Sharks in cup clinching game in 2016?
Do we forget that Syd killed Pekka Rinne in game 5 of 2017 SCF?
Do we forget that Syd never lost the international tournaments since 2005 when he joined?

Syd has so many clutching moments that only McD ever dreamt of to replicate. End of.

Golden goal on one of the most stacked teams imaginable? And you do realize Iginla created that flukey goal, right?

That assist on the empty net goal is what you call destruction?

Won't comment on game 5 since I don't remember too well.

Again, stacked rosters.

And it's Sid. Not Syd. You'd think a fan like yourself would know the difference. Apparently not.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Heh, *Crosby sets up an infinite amount of plays*

"who cares what Secondary Sid does, score some goals, stupid..."

*Crosby scores the winning goal*

"Pssh, what a fluke. The guy that passed it is the real hero!"

You can't win for winnin' sometimes haha

 

[Mohar Ikram]

Golden goal on one of the most stacked teams imaginable? And you do realize Iginla created that flukey goal, right?

That assist on the empty net goal is what you call destruction?

Won't comment on game 5 since I don't remember too well.

Again, stacked rosters.

And it's Sid. Not Syd. You'd think a fan like yourself would know the difference. Apparently not.

1st point: GOAL always means more than ASSIST. One more thing, forget that legendary "Iggy!" shout? Iggy was battling on the boards that time and without that call, Iggy might not seeing Sid.

2nd point: You always comment "stacked" roster even though McD also got stacked roster too. The only thing McD never got in his team is a good goalie. That is the only thing make a difference.

3rd point: You point out EN assist and ignoring his CUP winning goal assist (this point counteract your first point lol). Truly LOL.

4th point: people call him Sid or Syd. And I do know his name spelt Sidney.

Now, say what is biggest thing McDavid ever do to win any championship what so ever?

F*****g ZERO.

Meaningless. Pointless

Mic drop.

 

[jigglysquishy]

4th point: people call him Sid or Syd. And I do know his name spelt Sidney.

This isn't true at all.

Syd is feminine and has been used as an insult towards him throughout his career and was a bannable offense on this forum for years.

Even if you don't mean it that way, calling a male Sidney "Syd" is typically received as an insult.

 

[CanadienShark]

1st point: GOAL always means more than ASSIST. One more thing, forget that legendary "Iggy!" shout? Iggy was battling on the boards that time and without that call, Iggy might not seeing Sid.

2nd point: You always comment "stacked" roster even though McD also got stacked roster too. The only thing McD never got in his team is a good goalie. That is the only thing make a difference.

3rd point: You point out EN assist and ignoring his CUP winning goal assist (this point counteract your first point lol). Truly LOL.

4th point: people call him Sid or Syd. And I do know his name spelt Sidney.

Now, say what is biggest thing McDavid ever do to win any championship what so ever?

F*****g ZERO.

Meaningless. Pointless

Mic drop.

Goals mean that much to you? Crosby had 0 in his SCF Smythe win.

Mic drop?

It's nice that new people are getting into hockey. I hope you enjoy the sport!

 

[Lara Emily]

takes more than that to move up in the 5-20 logjam of (IMO) Hasek, Roy, Plante, Bourque, Shore, Harvey, Lafleur, Hull (Sr), Jagr, Richard, Ovechkin, Messier, Beliveau

Why the hell is Ovechkin in that list lol