Cam Talbot - Mod warning #251

[haveandare]

So it is just a coincidence then that teams like St Louis and San Jose routinely fall short with mediocre goalies and otherwise strong teams?

 

[NYRangers84]

But how come? You know in every sport or even trade there are people who are better than the rest. Be it track and field, football, basketball, soccer, you name it. Even in hockey there are elite players, but for the position of goalie there isn't?

I don't think there is just because the gap is so small it's not correct to call a goalie elite. If there was a goalie pulling in like 95% consistently than that would be elite. So far there hasn't been an elite goalie.

 

[CaptainMcD]

I don't think there is just because the gap is so small it's not correct to call a goalie elite. If there was a goalie pulling in like 95% consistently than that would be elite. So far there hasn't been an elite goalie.

STOP IT. You watch an elite goalie every night when Henrik plays. Patrick Roy was an elite goalie. Dom was an elite goalie. Marty was. Every scout/gm/coach will say the same thing. Why are you correct when there's people who are paid to do this saying the opposite? hint: you're not.

 

[NYRangers84]

So it is just a coincidence then that teams like St Louis and San Jose routinely fall short with mediocre goalies and otherwise strong teams?

You're putting too much stock into the goaltender position. The team is responsible for what types of chances the goalie faces.

 

[NYRangers84]

One thing that is important and overlooked is the ability of a goaltender to play the puck well. If a goalie can make breakout passes that gets his team scoring chances, that is pretty valuable.

 

[NYRangers84]

Vesa Toskala who is thought of as one of the worst goalies in recent NHL history stopped over 90% of shots in his career. He didn't stop 91 or 92% because he faced tons more high quality chances while playing for Toronto.

He went from 91.4% with the Sharks to 89.4% with the Leafs. Anyone getting my point?

 

[nyrleetch]

One thing that is important and overlooked is the ability of a goaltender to play the puck well. If a goalie can make breakout passes that gets his team scoring chances, that is pretty valuable.

Talbot made a great breakout pass to Tavares the other night.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Vesa Toskala who is thought of as one of the worst goalies in recent NHL history stopped over 90% of shots in his career. He didn't stop 91 or 92% because he faced tons more high quality chances while playing for garbage Toronto.

He went from 91.4% with the Sharks to 89.4% with the Leafs. Anyone getting my point?

The best svPCT. Toskala had in a 30+ games played season was 0.908.

His 0.927 in 02/03 was in 11 games

His 0.930 was in 28 games (the hype began)

He has a 0.901 and 0.908 were his backup years on the Sharks behind Nabokov


He had had a 0.904 his first year with the buds, and as the team deteriorated, an over-rated goalie was exposed.

 

[East Coast Bias]

I don't think there is just because the gap is so small it's not correct to call a goalie elite. If there was a goalie pulling in like 95% consistently than that would be elite. So far there hasn't been an elite goalie.

What is the point you're trying to make here? Seriously - I'm not trolling.

 

[haveandare]

What is the point you're trying to make here? Seriously - I'm not trolling.

I'm pretty sure he's trying to argue that since all NHL goalies have stats that fall into a relatively small numerical range, nobody is elite.

 

[NYRangers84]

I'm pretty sure he's trying to argue that since all NHL goalies have stats that fall into a relatively small numerical range, nobody is elite.

Yep, this.

That's why I have a problem with Lundqvist getting 8.5m/year. If anything I can understand some goalies deserve more due to seniority but I wouldn't go higher than 4 million. Still it doesn't make sense to keep a goalie getting paid millions when you can sign someone for league minimum and still get the same results.

 

[haveandare]

You're putting too much stock into the goaltender position. The team is responsible for what types of chances the goalie faces.

So, let's skip a hundred steps of back and forth and get to the real crux of this.

Why do professional coaches and GMs who have had tons of success, won champions, in the case of LA's GM built the closest thing to a dynasty we've seen in years - all pay top goalies top dollar?

Is the contention here that you get something that all of them don't?

 

[NYRangers84]

So, let's skip a hundred steps of back and forth and get to the real crux of this.

Why do professional coaches and GMs who have had tons of success, won champions, in the case of LA's GM built the closest thing to a dynasty we've seen in years - all pay top goalies top dollar?

Is the contention here that you get something that all of them don't?

Yeah pretty much. They pay top dollar because it has become the norm. I'm sure if I had a talk with one of them and explained all of this they would have an epiphany. Sather would kick himself in the butt.

Either that or they'd just tell me to go home since it would seem insulting having told they're wrong.

 

[jniklast]

I don't think there is just because the gap is so small it's not correct to call a goalie elite. If there was a goalie pulling in like 95% consistently than that would be elite. So far there hasn't been an elite goalie.

I think you just severely underestimate the gap between a top goalie. The difference between the league leading Carey Price and his .935 SV% and the league average of .910 is 25 goals per 1000 shots or 38% more goals allowed.

38% less points then the league leading 64 points brings you down to 40 points to the player 71st in scoring.

That is a very significant difference. Now you'll probably say that the SV% is only because of the "elite" team, so it's pretty pointless to argue, but I would be interested why you think that a goalies save percentage is entirely because of the team in front, but players points aren't? After all assists require someone else to score a goal and nearly every goal requires others to set you up.

 

[Miamipuck]

Vesa Toskala who is thought of as one of the worst goalies in recent NHL history stopped over 90% of shots in his career. He didn't stop 91 or 92% because he faced tons more high quality chances while playing for Toronto.

He went from 91.4% with the Sharks to 89.4% with the Leafs. Anyone getting my point?

That you don't understand how the numbers between an elite goalie and one that isn't, work, quite clearly actually.

 

[Miamipuck]

I'm pretty sure he's trying to argue that since all NHL goalies have stats that fall into a relatively small numerical range, nobody is elite.

That's like saying the Earth is flat, it's completely wrong, not even close by accident.

If there was no statistical difference between goalies, they would all be the same and that's a preposterous statement. There's quite a bit of difference in fact between a crappy goalie that gets hot like Dubnyk and an all world goalie like Hank.

 

[NYRangers84]

That's like saying the Earth is flat, it's completely wrong, not even close by accident.

If there was no statistical difference between goalies, they would all be the same and that's a preposterous statement. There's quite a bit of difference in fact between a crappy goalie that gets hot like Dubnyk and an all world goalie like Hank.

They're not the same in terms of how they play, how tall they are, their equipment brand, etc. But skill wise they are nearly identical.
The argument is smart, it's based on sound logic and facts which I keep presenting.

BTW, believe it or not but going back to 2011, Cory Schneider has been the best goalie in the league but you never hear about him.

 

[aufheben]

Why do Carey Price and Dustin Tokarski have drastically different numbers?

 

[NYRangers84]

Why do Carey Price and Dustin Tokarski have drastically different numbers?

Career wise or this season?

 

[aufheben]

I think you're taking a pretty common viewpoint and just pushing it too far.

Also I'm pretty sure that we're allowing the same shots per game as we were with Henrik.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Why do Carey Price and Dustin Tokarski have drastically different numbers?

Rinne's 0.931 and Hutton's 0.906 too.

 

[NYRangers84]

I think you're taking a pretty common viewpoint and just pushing it too far.

I agree. But when there are people saying my argument is ridiculous I can't help but defend myself.

 

[NYRangers84]

Rinne's 0.931 and Hutton's 0.906 too.

Hutton played in only 15 games. If they split the games we'd see much closer numbers. Plus it can be because Hutton is having a cold stretch and/or Rinne is having a hot stretch.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Hutton played in only 15 games. If they split the games we'd see much closer numbers. Plus it can be because Hutton is having a cold stretch and/or Rinne is having a hot stretch.

Could it be that Hutton isn't anywhere near as productive in the games when Rinne, the world class goaltender, needs a breather?

 

[NYRangers84]

Could it be that Hutton isn't anywhere near as productive in the games when Rinne, the world class goaltender, needs a breather?

Last year, Hutton did 91% and Rinne did 90.2%. Hutton played the majority of the games also.