Personally I think we need to see Lewis and lucic get more opportunity first before we take a chance on these guys.
Prospect Info: Calgary Wranglers and Prospect Discussion Megathread
- Thread starter Ace Rimmer
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Personally I think we need to see Lewis and lucic get more opportunity first before we take a chance on these guys.
Bounces R Way
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I was looking thru the scoring leaders and was surprised to find Luke Phlip up there. Cleveland does lead the league in goals though.
Pelletier now has a nice even 10 points over his last 5 games. Him and Zary both sit at 14 points in 13 games. Of note, there isn’t a single player their age or younger with more points in the AHL. Both have been some of the best young players in the AHL so far this year.
Is it wrong to hope 2-3 Flames bottom 6 forwards get injured for a week or two at the same time? nothing serious, just that they can't play
Tkachuk Norris
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- Jun 22, 2012
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Our franchise is honestly a joke right now.
Dustin is easily the best goalie in the organization. If it was really about earning it he would have got some starts.
thats because all of the other productive young AHL players last year Quinn, Berggren, Peterka and Macelli are playing in the NHL. What a novel idea.
…did you just unironically say why don’t we call up players like Arizona, Detroit and Buffalo? A group with 20 wins and 29 losses between them? All 3 have been perennial bottom feeders (Detroit less than the others), and two are exactly known for their abilities to develop players. We have aspirations of being cup contenders this year whether fans think that’s realistic or not, you can’t see why we make different decisions about rookies than 3 teams who’s priority isn’t winning?
Tkachuk Norris
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Those players are all producing well regardless of team. Good luck finding other near PPG players at that age in the AHL last year that aren’t in the NHL this year.
It’s is 100% NOT regardless of team, you don’t think the context of bad teams with plenty of open roster spots, often even reserved for young prospects doesn’t make any difference? Buffalo is icing 6 rookies for crying out loud, and is practically handing out top 6/top 4 ice time. They have no one else who can use it, and only care about development instead of winning. Do you think Zary and Pelletier are better offensively OR defensively than 6 of Huberdeau, Lindholm, Toffoli, Ruzicka, Backlund, Kadri, Mangiapane etc? Then it’s not regardless of team, because Peterka and Quinn worth both gifted second line time. Even our limited offensive players in Dube and Coleman bring a lot to the table a rookie would struggle to replace.
We had 1 open top 9 spot, and it’s gone now that Ruzicka took it. Unless you want to make an argument that any of our prospects are better NHLers than Dube or Coleman, we don’t have the space or willingness to ice a worse team for a prospect like bottom feeders do.
Would you honestly rather have Pelletier toiling on our 4th line playing with grinders for 8:00 a night or lighting up the AHL?
Dube and Coleman have done f*** all this year.
They could absolutely be replaced in the top 9. All I hear are excuses and excuses. Ruzicka should be a case study for what happens when you give youth a chance. This team had no problem in the past playing mangiapane on the 4th line as an undersized guy either…
Coleman plays his role pretty perfectly honestly. Great defensively, and probably our best forechecker. Every line he plays significant minutes on tilts the ice the opponent’s direction, that isn’t a coincidence. Offense isn’t there currently but he still helps in multiple ways when it’s cold, and it doesn’t help him and Backlund fit together perfectly.
Dube has had a bad start to this year for sure, but he has always been hot or cold. Pretty important to remember he is actually younger than Matthew Phillips, a prospect everyone’s fawning over. Dube also had a better point per game 4 seasons ago in the AHL than Phillips has ever finished a season with to put AHL stats in context.
Ruzicka got called up last season after putting up 20 points in 16 games in the AHL, a higher point per game than any of our prospects have currently. Took him a full calendar year after that to finally get to the point where he could earn a spot as a regular in the top nine, and he’s looking far better than he ever has including last season. That’s a case study fans should be paying attention too.
Phillips has had a better ppg than dube ever had twice.
Kinda hard to know what he is capable of when he has one game in the nhl.
And ruzicka was a healthy scratch for 9
Games. If huberdeau doesn’t get hurt does he even get a sniff? Doubt it.
First point is wildly untrue, last season was slightly lower while being 3 years older, and I can’t even tell what season you think was the second time Phillips finished with a better point per game.
Why would we demote players with a history of good results in the NHL for a player who has a small chance of being better than them? They may have larger potential, but in the short term they’re almost definitely going to be worst while we attempt to win games. How would you feel if after getting a promotion, you’re boss demoted you for an intern to see how it works? Realistically, they’ll wait for injuries since they were unable to prove they were better on a level playing ground in preseason.
When Huberdeau got injured, did we upgrade all of our left wings up a line then slot in Ruzicka on the fourth line like every other time he’s been used/inserted into the lineup? No. Sutter saw something that showed he was ready for a big offensive role while skating with the team. Ruzicka and Kylington are constantly used as the ‘proof’ we don’t trust prospects, when in reality they are proof the Flames process works.
Bounces R Way
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Especially like Zary absolutely snatching that big oafs soul on his initial move here. He's been so much better this season. Wranglers take two in a row off the Condors in their barn.
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I’m personally extremely excited for Zary. Really goes to show how an injury can encumber a player even after being ‘recovered’ by pro standards. Most guys from his draft are playing their rookie season in the AHL this year, and he is flourishing right now.
Ruzicka and Kylington succeeded in spite of being dicked around constantly in the lineup. This team believed in Kylington so much they left him on waivers and exposed to Seattle after scratching him for almost an entire season while playing Nikita Nesterov constantly. Meanwhile this team played Kevin Rooney while Ruzicka rotted in the press box for reasons. To say this is proof the process works is ridiculous, the Flames got incredibly lucky and did themselves no favours. You want to talk about proof of the process, guys like Andersson and Mangiapane were those guys who had chances to work through their kinks and flaws and up the lineup, but this team has fallen off a long way from that...
Phillips had 68 pts in 65 games last year and has 21 in 17 this year. You're right though, that 68 pts would be 0.005 ppg worse than Dube's 2018-19 season in Stockton. Point taken, Dube has had over 200 NHL games to prove he is something in the NHL while Phillips has had one.
History of good results? Lucic has 1 or 2 goals this calendar year. Dube has 4 pts in 17 games. Coleman 6 pts in 17 games. Lewis 5 in 17. This roster has a lot of crap at the bottom of it and quite a few players who could use a fire up their ass. And before you say you can't start prospects on the 4th line, Ruzicka last year or Mangiapane in 2019 say otherwise.
Mazatt
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To add onto this, the Flames can easily bring prospects up throughout the lineup pending the forward mix they want to go with, but they need a very specific blend of lineup to do so.
For example, calling up Phillips and sticking him with Lewis and Lucic will have absolutely awful results, I'd feel. Ruzicka had limited success with them but once he got a real look with top 9 guys it was clear he would stick, but putting a prospect with the current form of those guys would be a death sentence. What helped Mangiapane come along greatly was the fact the 4th line had Ryan and Hathaway, guys who are essentially the definition of luxury 4th liners/alright 3rd liners.
But if the Flames, for example, were to play Dube on the 4th line at centre again like the lines a few games ago, that creates a situation where the Flames have
Ruzicka - Lindholm - Toffoli
________ - Kadri - Mangiapane
Huberdeau - Backlund - _______
___________ - Dube - ________
And you can feel confident Pelletier/Phillips/Zary have a competent puck carrying centre to work with. Even in this example you could put Pelletier with Kadri and Mangiapane, Coleman with Backlund, and then have some kind of competent puck carrier to put with the 4th line to avoid Lewis/Rooney getting hemmed in their own zone as the guys expected to initiate and finish a complete breakout.
Now whether or not that will happen, who knows, but in all reality I'm not sure the path for the Flames is 4th line development, but creating a better 4th line that can put a momentary hole in the lineup as the Flames have done this season, but instead of filling that whole with Lucic it's filled with Pelletier
DFF
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The team refusal to give prospects a chance in the last few years is mind boggling. Especially with a constant stream of garbage in the lineups. Rooney is just the latest failed experiment
This is all good when they are winning. When they are not winning then it’s f*** Sutter, your time is up , old dinosaur.
This is all good when they are winning. When they are not winning then it’s f*** Sutter, your time is up , old dinosaur.
Tkachuk Norris
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Honestly I’m not sure players like Zary and Pelletier aren’t better than Dube and Coleman at this point. Only way we’d find out is if they get a chance. Look at Ruzicka. He was horrendous in preseason and now he looks like arguably our biggest offensive threat.
DFF
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Ruzicka’s issue has always been consistency
But that’s for all young players. Only way to know is give them more chances
Coleman has a lot of useful qualities when he isn’t scoring, I’m not worried about him and he also just seems to make Backlund better, they cover a lot of eachothers gaps.
I’m fully on team package Dube for an improvement or rental though. I think sending him off to a bad team that has the lack of depth to use him as an offensive centre could do him wonders in change of scenery style trade. He would fit in Chicago perfectly.
It’s amazing how we continually produce extremely high quality players passed the first round yet people dismiss our development as sheer luck. Then you use Mangiapane, a guy who got 4th line minutes in his 5th season after being draft eligible as an example of what we need to start doing again? Ironically Ruzicka got developed almost exactly like Mangiapane (even a year ahead of his development path). Ruzicka got 28 games toiling on the 4th line, whereas Mangiapane got 40. Then the next season they get moved up the lineup. He is following the Mangiapane path almost identically, and our brass even did it a year ahead of Mangiapane.
Dube has had 200 NHL to prove he is something because he produced slightly better while being 4 years younger? You have to remember the best players in the AHL aren’t NHL caliber, the guys who lead the league in scoring are almost exclusively mid to late 20s player who will never make the show. After that production you have to continue to improve significantly to be any kind of player in the league. That production that was ever so slightly than Phillips only translated into 16 points in 45 games next season. You want Coleman gone for that exact same production pace, and he isn’t going to make mistakes a rookie would either.
Ruzicka is 6’4 200+ and Mangiapane is probably the feistiest player on our team. You don’t see why they were started on a 4th line and why Phillips would be a bad idea for it? Mangiapane to this day gets tossed around a lot and from the NHL/AHL websites he has a whopping 25 pounds on Phillips. They were also 4th and 6th round picks, which get a lot different of a development path than our 1st rounders waiting in the AHL as well.
That is not what I said... I said Kylington and Ruzicka's paths were very much sheer luck considering how the organization dicked them around.
No, Mangiapane and Ruzicka have not been all that similar. Ruzicka saw regular health scratches despite some good stretch of play last year and started this year as such too. He was given virtually no rope to play through his ups and downs. Mangiapane in comparison was either playing in the NHL or AHL and was given the opportunity to work through his flaws.
The best players in the AHL aren't NHL calibre? Says who? Matthew Phillips has been one of the best players in the AHL and for our farm team while being in his early 20s, I don't see the comparison between him and journeymen who are in their late 20s and early 30s.
As for your third point, this team ran a Mangiapane-Ryan-Hathaway line as its 4th line at one point and it was just fine. Putting Lucic-Zary-Phillips or Pelletier-Zary-Ritchie together as a 4th line would not be the end of the world.
