Proposal: Calgary/Los Angeles

[deaderhead28]

Because they have 75 prospects fighting over one 3rd line center spot?

None of these propects are ready to take over Kopitars job.Not even Byfield is ready.

 

[deaderhead28]

This is a trade thread in an internet forum.
Everything in here is fantasy

Especially your post about no one caring if Kings traded Kopitar.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I bring up the last 7 games because you blamed Toews' lack of production on Colliton. Yet somehow he's still not producing.

I didn't blame Colliton for Toews production, I blamed Colliton for the team's results as a whole. You can also probably add the scandal that was going on to that as well.

It actually is his production. He's leading his team in scoring at nearly double Toew's rate. And he had 50p in 56 games last year, so it's not like his 17p in 18 games this year is outside of his expected range.

Also Toews has been getting owned at 5v5 the last few years; this year he's at 42% xGF. He's only had 1 year >50% xGF% in his last 6 years. Its actually hilarious that you bring up his 5v5 play and advanced stats as a strength - it really just shows how terrible your judgment is. Kopitar has been better in each of the last 3 years, and is currently at 50% xGF.

So yeah Kopitar is the significantly better player. Better scorer, better 5v5 player, and better advanced stats.

It's almost like you things go in 1 ear and out the other with you...
Again, outside of those 3 clear outlier games at the beginning of the season Toews and Kopitar only have a 1 point difference between them. That would generally mean they have the roughly the same production no? In Toews last season he had 60 points in 70 games which is again pretty much the same production rate.

xGF% is also not the only stat. LMAO don't cherry pick stats. Also how are you getting your numbers over their last 3 years if Toews didn't play at all last year? lets look at 17/18 to 19/20 then

Toews Kopitar​

CF% 52.04% 50.02%
SF% 49.34% 49.99%
GF% 50.94% 51.82%
xGF% 48.82% 48.11%
SCF% 51.25% 48.80%

Those seem pretty even to me

We can even look at just Toews last 2 seasons/Kopitar's last 3 (18/19 - 20-21):

Toews Kopitar​

CF% 50.00% 49.58%
SF% 47.37% 50.06%
GF% 50.87% 49.62%
xGF% 46.78% 47.57%
SCF% 49.12% 47.55%

Again, looks pretty even to me.

 

[Kurrilino]

None of these propects are ready to take over Kopitars job.Not even Byfield is ready.

We are coming pretty close to copy the Flames Iginla situation.
Right now Kopitar carries tremendous value and we will not win anything with or without him.
His value will be lower on a monthly base from here on.

So why not sell high?

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I didn't blame Colliton for Toews production, I blamed Colliton for the team's results as a whole. You can also probably add the scandal that was going on to that as well.

Toews' leadership was on full display there when he lied about knowing that it happened.

It's almost like you things go in 1 ear and out the other with you...
Again, outside of those 3 clear outlier games at the beginning of the season Toews and Kopitar only have a 1 point difference between them. That would generally mean they have the roughly the same production no?

No it wouldn't, you can't just decide to throw out Kopitar's best games lol. Beyond that, teams game plan to shut down Kopitar. The same can't be said of Toews.

xGF% is also not the only stat. LMAO don't cherry pick stats.

I didn't cherry pick lol, you'll notice it's the stat I reference the most in all my posts. If you want to see cherry picking, refer to the rest of your post.

Also how are you getting your numbers over their last 3 years if Toews didn't play at all last year? lets look at 17/18 to 19/20 then

Toews Kopitar​

CF% 52.04% 50.02%
SF% 49.34% 49.99%
GF% 50.94% 51.82%
xGF% 48.82% 48.11%
SCF% 51.25% 48.80%

Those seem pretty even to me

We can even look at just Toews last 2 seasons/Kopitar's last 3 (18/19 - 20-21):

Toews Kopitar​

CF% 50.00% 49.58%
SF% 47.37% 50.06%
GF% 50.87% 49.62%
xGF% 46.78% 47.57%
SCF% 49.12% 47.55%

Again, looks pretty even to me.

So your plan to dispute the fact that Toews is a shadow of his former self was to cite stats from 3-5 years ago while excluding this season? I'd criticize the logic here, but honestly that's par for the course for you.[/QUOTE]

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

We are coming pretty close to copy the Flames Iginla situation.
Right now Kopitar carries tremendous value and we will not win anything with or without him.
His value will be lower on a monthly base from here on.

So why not sell high?

That's kind of what I thought about with this thread but I don't see a "Nieuwendyk for Iginla" trade to be made

 

[flamesforcup]

Fair enough. I agree with your point on Tkachuk to an extent. I just disagree with you that we need Eichel or Kopitar. I'd be looking for a RHS RW personally. Lindholm is way, way better than most people realize. He is a #1 center in every sense for me. I'd be looking to move out 2 of Monahan, Tkachuk and Lucic. Obviously moving Monahan or Lucic you're just hoping to open cap space. I'd move Tkachuk for a lottery pick or equivalent prospect and a top 6 RW making less money.

I think Lindholm is great too but our centre depth after his pretty bad. Kopitar would be to add to him. WIth both Lindholm and Kopitar plus Mangio, Tkachuk and JG13 for this playoff run we have a real shot. I think Kopitars better then any rhs rw available and i see centre being a bigger need anyways.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Toews' leadership was on full display there when he lied about knowing that it happened.

Why is it lying if they literally never shared a dressing room? You don't know the full story so don't make conclusions you can't defend

No it wouldn't, you can't just decide to throw out Kopitar's best games lol. Beyond that, teams game plan to shut down Kopitar. The same can't be said of Toews.

I'm not throwing out those games, I am calling them outliers and a small sample size which is an accurate description. 25 games from now I'm willing to bet the difference in their points total is still around 10. Do you think Markstrom is also going to reach 29 shut outs this season?

Kopitar is not McDavid, they don't go into games with the sole intention of only shutting him down. Teams go into games with the intention of beating LA as a whole. He is not the single driving force on that roster. Toews has been utilized in a shut down role the whole season whereas Kopitar has not.

I didn't cherry pick lol, you'll notice it's the stat I reference the most in all my posts. If you want to see cherry picking, refer to the rest of your post.

Well then maybe you should choose more stats to work with than just 1 because it really doesn't help you make a compelling argument.

So your plan to dispute the fact that Toews is a shadow of his former self was to cite stats from 3-5 years ago while excluding this season? I'd criticize the logic here, but honestly that's par for the course for you.

3-5 years ago? I did 1-4 years ago (split into 2 lists 2-4 years and 1-3 years) and I excluded the current season because it is a small sample size. If you want to compare these 2 players while one of them literally played zero games last year then you have to at least include the 18/19 season. Here I'll even do that math for you from 18/19 to today (since I'm not subscribed to Natural Stat Trick and I doubt you are either).

Toews ---- Kopitar​

CF%: --- 49.94% --- 49.60%
SF%: --- 47.19% ---- 50.23%
GF%: --- 49.80% --- 49.64%
xGF%: - 46.46% ---- 47.76%
SCF%: - 49.07% ---- 47.65%

Numbers still seem pretty similar, shocking how little of a difference 20 games makes when you add it to a sample size of 150-200

 

[Double Dion]

I think Lindholm is great too but our centre depth after his pretty bad. Kopitar would be to add to him. WIth both Lindholm and Kopitar plus Mangio, Tkachuk and JG13 for this playoff run we have a real shot. I think Kopitars better then any rhs rw available and i see centre being a bigger need anyways.

We can't fit that under the cap. It seems you aren't accounting for that. We have 850K in cap space. At least 7.9M in cap needs to go out at the TDL to add Kopitar.

Also in what way do we need a center more than a RW? Our best RW is whoever you think is better out of Trevor Lewis or Brett Ritchie. Backlund is a legit #2 center. We don't have a single top 9 RW.

What you are proposing opens our window for precisely one year. That's a really bad gamble. I'd rather be a top 8 contender for 4 years than a top 5 for one year. Way better odds.

 

[Double Dion]

Why is it lying if they literally never shared a dressing room? You don't know the full story so don't make conclusions you can't defend



I'm not throwing out those games, I am calling them outliers and a small sample size which is an accurate description. 25 games from now I'm willing to bet the difference in their points total is still around 10. Do you think Markstrom is also going to reach 29 shut outs this season?

Kopitar is not McDavid, they don't go into games with the sole intention of only shutting him down. Teams go into games with the intention of beating LA as a whole. He is not the single driving force on that roster. Toews has been utilized in a shut down role the whole season whereas Kopitar has not.



Well then maybe you should choose more stats to work with than just 1 because it really doesn't help you make a compelling argument.



3-5 years ago? I did 1-4 years ago (split into 2 lists 2-4 years and 1-3 years) and I excluded the current season because it is a small sample size. If you want to compare these 2 players while one of them literally played zero games last year then you have to at least include the 18/19 season. Here I'll even do that math for you from 18/19 to today (since I'm not subscribed to Natural Stat Trick and I doubt you are either).

Toews ---- Kopitar​

CF%: --- 49.94% --- 49.60%
SF%: --- 47.19% ---- 50.23%
GF%: --- 49.80% --- 49.64%
xGF%: - 46.46% ---- 47.76%
SCF%: - 49.07% ---- 47.65%

Numbers still seem pretty similar, shocking how little of a difference 20 games makes when you add it to a sample size of 150-200

I'm a big fan of Toews as well actually. We agree on something. That said, he's not a 10M player anymore. I do think right now in 21-22 Kopitar is more than slightly better. I'd still call Kopitar a 1C. Toews now is more like Backlund. A very useful player, but not a 1C anymore.

My question with Toews is does he have another playoff run or two in him? I'd want to have a lot of due diligence done before doing anything about what it was that prevented him from playing last year. I'd also want our bad cap hits gone in that deal.

If Chicago would do Monahan and Lucic for Toews I'd do it, but I've got to shed cap, not add it in that deal.

My main reason for not immediately crapping on even the concept of adding him is based on his big moments game. He just has a knack for elevating in big moments. His bubble performance where he won the McDavid matchup being a more recent example.

Like you I don't crap on him for the scandal. No one truly knows what elements of the story he had heard. My guess is he heard something but probably not the whole story.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Why is it lying if they literally never shared a dressing room? You don't know the full story so don't make conclusions you can't defend



I'm not throwing out those games, I am calling them outliers and a small sample size which is an accurate description. 25 games from now I'm willing to bet the difference in their points total is still around 10. Do you think Markstrom is also going to reach 29 shut outs this season?

Kopitar is not McDavid, they don't go into games with the sole intention of only shutting him down. Teams go into games with the intention of beating LA as a whole. He is not the single driving force on that roster. Toews has been utilized in a shut down role the whole season whereas Kopitar has not.



Well then maybe you should choose more stats to work with than just 1 because it really doesn't help you make a compelling argument.



3-5 years ago? I did 1-4 years ago (split into 2 lists 2-4 years and 1-3 years) and I excluded the current season because it is a small sample size. If you want to compare these 2 players while one of them literally played zero games last year then you have to at least include the 18/19 season. Here I'll even do that math for you from 18/19 to today (since I'm not subscribed to Natural Stat Trick and I doubt you are either).

Toews ---- Kopitar​

CF%: --- 49.94% --- 49.60%
SF%: --- 47.19% ---- 50.23%
GF%: --- 49.80% --- 49.64%
xGF%: - 46.46% ---- 47.76%
SCF%: - 49.07% ---- 47.65%

Numbers still seem pretty similar, shocking how little of a difference 20 games makes when you add it to a sample size of 150-200

Here I did it for you as I'm done wasting my time with your nonsense. Go argue with somebody else.

Better player today: Kopitar vs Toews

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I think Lindholm is great too but our centre depth after his pretty bad. Kopitar would be to add to him. WIth both Lindholm and Kopitar plus Mangio, Tkachuk and JG13 for this playoff run we have a real shot. I think Kopitars better then any rhs rw available and i see centre being a bigger need anyways.

People get way to hung over on what way a winger holds their stick, it only ever has relevance on the powerplay and a rush. Tkachuk has been great on RW and the chemistry between him and his line mates really backs that up. Adding someone like Kopitar/Toews down the middle would definitely have a bigger impact than going out of our way to add an average top 6 winger just because they are right handed. Flames PK and 5v5 defensive game would be insane and the powerplay would be just as frustrating too, especially since those 2 centers are among the best faceoff guys in the entire NHL.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Here I did it for you as I'm done wasting my time with your nonsense. Go argue with somebody else.

Better player today: Kopitar vs Toews

You are the one who started the argument... All I did was suggest another possible player and you decided to have a tantrum about it

 

[Double Dion]

People get way to hung over on what way a winger holds their stick, it only ever has relevance on the powerplay and a rush. Tkachuk has been great on RW and the chemistry between him and his line mates really backs that up. Adding someone like Kopitar/Toews down the middle would definitely have a bigger impact than going out of our way to add an average top 6 winger just because they are right handed. Flames PK and 5v5 defensive game would be insane and the powerplay would be just as frustrating too, especially since those 2 centers are among the best faceoff guys in the entire NHL.

Sutter has repeatedly stated he'd prefer having wingers playing their strong side.

You're correct that it's not a huge issue offensively except on the PP. But it is on the breakouts. Facing forward on the breakout is a huge issue.

I agree in theory that Kopitar would have a bigger impact than say Rakell. But you have to delete 7.9M in salary at the deadline to fit him. Same with Toews except it becomes 8.275M we'd need to delete.

As I said it a previous post, if they'll take Lucic and Monahan it works. My guess is they won't.

If a trade in theory was Monahan, Dube, Pelletier and a 1st for Kopitar are we really better than keeping Dube and Monahan and adding Rakell with Pitlick and a 1st going the other way?

 

[flamesforcup]

We can't fit that under the cap. It seems you aren't accounting for that. We have 850K in cap space. At least 7.9M in cap needs to go out at the TDL to add Kopitar.

Also in what way do we need a center more than a RW? Our best RW is whoever you think is better out of Trevor Lewis or Brett Ritchie. Backlund is a legit #2 center. We don't have a single top 9 RW.

What you are proposing opens our window for precisely one year. That's a really bad gamble. I'd rather be a top 8 contender for 4 years than a top 5 for one year. Way better odds.

Monahan+lucic should be enough to fit him under this season. I think Lucic would waive for LA since he has history there. And i would have to disagree with your point about Backlund. I love him but we need more offense from another centre. Kopitar makes this team a cup contender.

 

[Double Dion]

Monahan+lucic should be enough to fit him under this season. I think Lucic would waive for LA since he has history there. And i would have to disagree with your point about Backlund. I love him but we need more offense from another centre. Kopitar makes this team a cup contender.

I'd do it if they took Monahan and Lucic. Just don't think they would.

Backlund is a 45 to 50 point center who plays top 10 D. That's a good 2C. He's not Draisaitl or Malkin to be sure, but he's every bit as good as most 2Cs on contending teams like Tampa, Florida, Carolina ect.

 

[flamesforcup]

I'd do it if they took Monahan and Lucic. Just don't think they would.

Backlund is a 45 to 50 point center who plays top 10 D. That's a good 2C. He's not Draisaitl or Malkin to be sure, but he's every bit as good as most 2Cs on contending teams like Tampa, Florida, Carolina ect.

Well Monahan and lucic would be on top of a picks/prospects package probably.

 

[Double Dion]

Well Monahan and lucic would be on top of a picks/prospects package probably.

Yup for sure. If they'd do that I'd include a prospect and a 1st. Still doubt they'd do it.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You are the one who started the argument... All I did was suggest another possible player and you decided to have a tantrum about it

Sure bud. Toews and Kopitar are equal. You win.

 

[tarapoto2006]

I guess people want to win the cup ??

I just don't think the Flames need to give up Monahan, Valimaki and Wolf for Kopitar to win the cup. Monahan ain't even in his prime and it's too early to write off Valimaki just because he's not getting the ice time. I trust Sutter's coaching credentials. Giving up Monahan and Valimaki for 35 year old Kopitar what are y'all smoking? Valimaki is still a top prospect for Calgary they're not gonna give those guys away for Kopitar

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I just don't think the Flames need to give up Monahan, Valimaki and Wolf for Kopitar to win the cup. Monahan ain't even in his prime and it's too early to write off Valimaki just because he's not getting the ice time. I trust Sutter's coaching credentials. Giving up Monahan and Valimaki for 35 year old Kopitar what are y'all smoking? Valimaki is still a top prospect for Calgary they're not gonna give those guys away for Kopitar

You're right, he's far past his prime ...

 

[treple13]

LA could get more if they were selling Kopitar.

I'd definitely be willing to add from a Calgary standpoint (like a 1st and Zary), but ONLY if I had a contract in place with Gaudreau (since if we lose him we aren't contenders and will regret giving up futures)

 

[Double Dion]

I just don't think the Flames need to give up Monahan, Valimaki and Wolf for Kopitar to win the cup. Monahan ain't even in his prime and it's too early to write off Valimaki just because he's not getting the ice time. I trust Sutter's coaching credentials. Giving up Monahan and Valimaki for 35 year old Kopitar what are y'all smoking? Valimaki is still a top prospect for Calgary they're not gonna give those guys away for Kopitar

I just don't think Valimaki is that good. He needs 100 to 200 games to be anything more than a bottom pairing defenseman. He's not going to get that here and requires waivers. That year and a half of lost development time really tanked his career. He's too good to send down as we'd lose him on waivers. I'd play him ahead of Zadorov but behind Mackey personally, but it's become clear Sutter prefers Zadorov.

Monahan unfortunately has gone through a lot of injuries. He was never the bona-fide 1C people thought he was, but he was a 1C offensively. He isn't anymore.

That said, I wouldn't pursue one of the high priced veteran centers anyone is proposing (Toews, Kopitar, Seguin) unless we could dump Lucic and Monahan in the deal. If both weren't included we will lose better players in free agency fitting those guys in.

 

[LAKings88]

Would Boston make that trade for Bergeron?

Kopitar is still good for 70-80 points and underrated in every aspect of the game. Unless he goes to management asking for a trade, it ain’t gonna happen.

 

[Double Dion]

Would Boston make that trade for Bergeron?

Kopitar is still good for 70-80 points and underrated in every aspect of the game. Unless he goes to management asking for a trade, it ain’t gonna happen.

Bergeron isn't the ideal comparable. His cap hit is 6M not 10M and it expires this year, not 3 years from now. Is a 37 year old Kopitar going to be good for 70-80 points (If he even is now, since he hasn't scored at that rate for 4 years)?

Don't hear me hating on him, he's still an excellent player. But I think it's pretty unlikely he's a PPG player again at this point. I'm not even defending the proposed trade, just doubt he scores 210-240 points over the next 3 seasons. LA already got the value relative to the cap hit out of him. This is the bad, back half of the contract.