Calgary announces agreement for new $1.2 billion arena for the Flames

[Voight]

It's called collusion. If no city gives up half a billion or more in funds/tax breaks, it's not worth it to move.

Or pass some legislation. No privately owned sports franchise is eligible for taxpayer funding or tax exemptions on arena deals. Make these guys actually pay for their toys.

I get your point but the reality is there's always going to be a mayor and/or governor willing to make concessions for sports teams.

Such as this

Could Chiefs move to Kansas? State takes step toward trying to lure team away from neighboring Missouri

Kansas is making an effort to bring the Chiefs -- and Royals -- over from Missouri

www.cbssports.com

 

[norrisnick]

I get your point but the reality is there's always going to be a mayor and/or governor willing to make concessions for sports teams.

Such as this

Could Chiefs move to Kansas? State takes step toward trying to lure team away from neighboring Missouri

Kansas is making an effort to bring the Chiefs -- and Royals -- over from Missouri

www.cbssports.com

Everyone seems to be against frivolous tax spending. Make pro franchises ineligible for public funding. Again, make the billionaires pay for their toys.

But for whatever reason people would rather give hundreds of millions of dollars to billionaire franchise owners but woe be it if some kid is hungry in school, or needs help paying medical bills or something...

This is a topic that makes me very angry, and a not so insignificant portion of that anger is that it doesn't seem to be making everyone angry...

 

[MMC]

If I could spend every cent of my tax dollars on pro sports venues and none on social programs or military spending I would do so in a heartbeat

 

[Mike Jones]

Gotta be a sigh of relief for Flames fans

What about the tax payers who don't want our money lining the pockets of billionaires who could have easily paid for their own effing arena? We like hockey but we prefer services that are available to everybody.

The common good is more important than enriching people who already have too much.

 

[guythatlikeshockeyeh]

What about the tax payers who don't want our money lining the pockets of billionaires who could have easily paid for their own effing arena? We like hockey but we prefer services that are available to everybody.

The common good is more important than enriching people who already have too much.

It's not worth the argument anymore I think. People like us that think that giving a billionaire more money is a bad idea have lost. And we have been losing for a long time. The people that think we need to give billionaires more money won. Again. Congrats to them.

I wish things were different.

 

[Bank Shot]

What about the tax payers who don't want our money lining the pockets of billionaires who could have easily paid for their own effing arena? We like hockey but we prefer services that are available to everybody.

The common good is more important than enriching people who already have too much.

But th3y are creating jerbs!

Oh wait, they aren't.

 

[Iggys Dome]

If I could spend every cent of my tax dollars on pro sports venues and none on social programs or military spending I would do so in a heartbeat

None on social programs…aren’t you unemployed?

 

[Bounces R Way]

A society building stuff is a sign of it functioning correctly. Yes even sports arenas. The Roman Empire built the Coliseum nearly 2000 years ago and guess what is still their most recognizable symbol.

I know the doomers are everywhere and believe me I get it. There's plenty of days I really doubt there's any hands on the wheel at all, or the hands that are are getting dumber by the year. But this is also objectively the most prosperous time in human history. Not even 200 years ago I likely would have had to grow, shoot, or raise & butcher my own dinner. Might even have to fight somebody off my land. Now I can get ramen delivered within 30 minutes. Take a trip anywhere I want. Learn to play the French horn maybe. Have frivolous discussions on a hockey forum. You can even purchase bluetooth buttplugs if that's your fancy.

The Flames new building sadly will likely not contend with the Coliseum, but some better food options and concourse setup will be welcome.

 

[Lunatik]

Every city needs to start holding firm on these deals.

If you, as a billionaire (or controlling person of an entity that controls billions of dollars in assets) cannot afford a suitable arena and/or pay the requisite rent/lease/whatever along with all the taxes that go with it. Don't buy a shiny pro franchise. Period. It's the height of grift to buy a team. Hold the team ransom to whatever city it's attached to. And then flip the team whenever you get bored of it along with it's cushy arena/lease agreement that more than pays for what you paid for the team in the first place. It's a giant hustle.

Please, take my tax dollars so I get to retain the privilege of spending dumb money on tickets, ticket surcharges, parking, and concessions. Only to then go through the same dog and pony show in 10-20 years when you want to rennovate for more and bigger luxury boxes and further price out the fans.

What's crazy is 9 years ago the Flames pitched Calgary Next a duo NHL/CFL arena/stadium for 1B split 50/50

Now they're just getting an arena for 900k and the city is paying even more.

 

[Lunatik]

It's called collusion. If no city gives up half a billion or more in funds/tax breaks, it's not worth it to move.

Or pass some legislation. No privately owned sports franchise is eligible for taxpayer funding or tax exemptions on arena deals. Make these guys actually pay for their toys.

Why specifically sports arenas? Massive companies are regularly given tax breaks/land to draw them to a city. Why is this any different? Do you think when CP Rail moved their head office from Montreal to Calgary there wasn't some form of incentive from the city?

 

[JPT]

A society building stuff is a sign of it functioning correctly. Yes even sports arenas. The Roman Empire built the Coliseum nearly 2000 years ago and guess what is still their most recognizable symbol.

I know the doomers are everywhere and believe me I get it. There's plenty of days I really doubt there's any hands on the wheel at all, or the hands that are are getting dumber by the year. But this is also objectively the most prosperous time in human history. Not even 200 years ago I likely would have had to grow, shoot, or raise & butcher my own dinner. Might even have to fight somebody off my land. Now I can get ramen delivered within 30 minutes. Take a trip anywhere I want. Learn to play the French horn maybe. Have frivolous discussions on a hockey forum. You can even purchase bluetooth buttplugs if that's your fancy.

The Flames new building sadly will likely not contend with the Coliseum, but some better food options and concourse setup will be welcome.

The Colosseum was funded through spoils of war taken from the Second Temple in Jerusalem, and it required a large workforce of slave labor to construct. I’m not sure it’s comparable to cities and states/provinces spending hundreds of millions of tax dollars on an arena for hockey and various Disney on ice shows. That said, people may not have as much of an issue with a publicly-funded arena if governments spent tax dollars more responsibly and in ways that actually help your average person rather than finding ways to funnel it into the pockets of wealthy people.

 

[norrisnick]

Why specifically sports arenas? Massive companies are regularly given tax breaks/land to draw them to a city. Why is this any different? Do you think when CP Rail moved their head office from Montreal to Calgary there wasn't some form of incentive from the city?

Because it's easier to sell arenas/stadiums as frivolous grift for billionaires' toys. I 1000% agree it should be across the board.

 

[Mike Jones]

It's not worth the argument anymore I think. People like us that think that giving a billionaire more money is a bad idea have lost. And we have been losing for a long time. The people that think we need to give billionaires more money won. Again. Congrats to them.

I wish things were different.

Why are you congratulating them? The last thing they need is encouragement. They need our condemnation and demands that they never do this again.

We need to be calling for an investigation into how they benefited from selling us out the way they did. Were they rewarded and, if so, how?

As far as I'm concerned this can't be over because there are other sports teams in this city calling for new facilities - like the Stamps (Owned by guess who) calling for a new stadium.

We have to learn from our disastrous mistakes and promise never to let it happen again.

But th3y are creating jerbs!

Oh wait, they aren't.

A privately funded arena would have created jobs too. Something our genius mayor is failing to tell us.

 

[Volica]

Happy this is finally happening after almost a decade. Fans deserve a state-of-the-art arena as well as a new entertainment district. Calgary has sorely been missing a central location where there will be nightlife and entertainment; 17th Ave is very spread out and Stephen Ave is questionable at best.

In terms of city vs the Flames group contribution; in a perfect world I think everyone would have liked the Flames to have paid their own way into a new building. That all being said, there are a few factors that everyone seems to just gloss over because we can always make the big bad billionaire the boogeyman.

- The city was using a reserve fund for this upgrade. That fund is dedicated to capital investments; so this is not used to fund social programs, which are already budgeted (in theory).
- The city ran a mega surplus this year of a quarter billion dollars from taxing everyone to death. The City of Calgary's inefficiency to control their finances has been an issue since that jabroni Nenshi was around. In fact years ago when we debated this on the Flames board I posted the finances of the city; it makes no sense from an outsider perspective (like a run-of-the-mill citizen just trying to learn what money gets spent on). Millions of dollars (tens in some cases) spent on generic terminology with no further details provided. I.E: Efficiency Study: 900K. Like, what? What efficiency? What study?
- The Calgary Flames are a huge part of this city. Again, there's this social construct that we need good and bad guys. And people with a lot of money are bad guys. But... like; spend a few minutes at the Children's hospital in Calgary. Look at the Ronald McDonald House. Look at non-for-profit child services including special needs services (Pacekids Programs, etc). You'll see a lot of flaming C's all over. There's a lot of money being re-contributed into important things by the organization. I know there's tax reasons here too, but you can tax loop your profits other ways rather than investing in infrastructure and support for children.

 

[Haatley]

What about the tax payers who don't want our money lining the pockets of billionaires who could have easily paid for their own effing arena? We like hockey but we prefer services that are available to everybody.

The common good is more important than enriching people who already have too much.

Does having a hockey team create revenue for the city of Calgary?

 

[wetcoast]

And there better not be any provincial money. After what was said by our current premier as opposition....leading into the election, talk about vote buying.

But that is enough politics....but impossible to avoid it when talking arenas in Canada because large arenas and their tennents are public cash grabbing whores and politicians are all too happy to oblige

It's not that much different in the states where pro teams leverage fan support and milk the public as well.

Seattle voted 3 times to vote down funding the Seahawks facility and yet it was still built.

 

[Mike Jones]

Does having a hockey team create revenue for the city of Calgary?

Not really. Whatever the arena earns is going into the pockets of Flames owners. They only send us pennies on the dollar.

There is some hope of development around the arena and that we would gain tax dollars from that but I'm sure developers will demand sweetheart tax breaks that will destroy that revenue stream as well.

Everyone has their hands out and Mayor and council are all too eager to load them up.

We would actually be better off if the Flames went back to Atlanta, At least then we would benefit from all the revenue that comes in from events.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Flames ownership is pure ass. They should be thrown into the street after being stripped of their riches.

 

[snag]

Flames ownership is pure ass. They should be thrown into the street after being stripped of their riches.

The new rink will be the only draw the Flames will have for a while....

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

The new rink will be the only draw the Flames will have for a while....

Because ownership insisted on keeping the gravy train going even after it was obvious it wasn't going to lead to anywhere good.

 

[Canovin]

Holy inflation. That's more than double the cost of Oilers arena

 

[Mike Jones]

Flames ownership is pure ass. They should be thrown into the street after being stripped of their riches.

Or simply forced to pay their way. I have no problem with them building a new arena as long as they pay for everything and also pay all assessed taxes.

 

[viper0220]

The new rink will be the only draw the Flames will have for a while....

I think the fans are fine with this, it is better than spinning the wheels in wet mud.

If they do a proper rebuild(which they have shown so far), than they will be a playoff team(hopefully) into 2-3 years of the new arena.

 

[snag]

I think the fans are fine with this, it is better than spinning the wheels in wet mud.

If they do a proper rebuild(which they have shown so far), than they will be a playoff team(hopefully) into 2-3 years of the new arena.

Yep...It was the same thing with the Oilers. It helps distract a little.

As a former resident of Calgary, I am happy for the City. After the flood I joked with some friends down there about the 'Dome being renamed to the Toilet Bowl Just wish my money as an Albertan (I am not Edmontonian either so I guess I am happier with that arrangement) wasn't so heftily tied in making rich people richer.

 

[Tawnos]

It's not worth the argument anymore I think. People like us that think that giving a billionaire more money is a bad idea have lost. And we have been losing for a long time. The people that think we need to give billionaires more money won. Again. Congrats to them.

I wish things were different.

You lost this argument during the Industrial Revolution. That's how long the use of subsidies for private businesses have been given out by governments. It actually predates that a little bit, though it was originally a protectionist measure rather than a way to incentivize development.

And unless you somehow get all governments not to do them, the argument will stay lost. I don't even disagree with you, but in this case reality is reality.