Calgary announces agreement for new $1.2 billion arena for the Flames

[Sra1974]

And they will continue not doing that regardless of this plan gets rejected or not

Don’t disagree, but was just trying to explain why there may be some angst about this plan.

 

[biturbo19]

The area around the Saddledome is a wasteland.

It’s prime real estate, downtown, close to the river, and it’s been nothing but a waystation for buses and semis for 40 years.

Developing one of the city’s only prime unused locations is crucial. There’s no way this project isn’t going to be a huge part of this town’s character for the next 50+ years.

It should’ve been done years ago. It’s done now.

Get to shovelling.

Part of the reason that whole area is such a wasteland in the first place though...is that they've been holding that land as basically useless empty, non-revenue generating parking lots for ages. In anticipation of cutting a deal like this where the public foot a huge portion of the bill on redeveloping the area and building a new arena. Basically kicking their boots up and waiting for the public to polish them.

They deliberately made it a problem, to make it seem more pressing for the public to address it. Even the Saddledome itself, they intentionally allowed cheap, easy cosmetic fixes to go undone...in an effort to make the building look more decrepit than it actually is.


The reality is...when this is all said and done, it's very likely they just end up shuffling some of the parking lots around to different locations, so it's a slightly different sort of empty wasteland with a new arena in the middle. Despite the general parking surplus in downtown anyway.


If this actually spurs some of the proposed surrounding development, and helps get the new transit line moving...that starts to make more sense from a public investment standpoint. But it's not entirely clear whether that'll happen. There's not really any firm commitment to it. More of a "wait and see" where it's entirely possible all that area sees...is basically the arena moving across the street, with a few shops/restaurants that only see any traffic on game days/concerts/events.

 

[Lunatik]

So the owner pays roughly $400 million for something that is worth $1.2 billion? that's a pretty good scam.

The one thing I see no one mentioning, is the fact that CSEC is paying the city 17m (with 1% added each year) for 35 years. Which is an additional $700m+

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

And they will continue not doing that regardless of this plan gets rejected or not

That’s not the frigging point

 

[super6646]

The one thing I see no one mentioning, is the fact that CSEC is paying the city 17m (with 1% added each year) for 35 years. Which is an additional $700m+

The pay 40m bucks up front lol. Much of that 700m dollars will be devalued by inflation. By the time they are done paying back that deal, that 700m is worth half of what it initially was worth.

1% increase in lease per year when inflation is normally twice that lol. Just an incredible deal for CSEC and no one else. I doubt ticket prices only increase by 1% per year as just an example.

 

[Lunatik]

The pay 40m bucks up front lol. Much of that 700m dollars will be devalued by inflation. By the time they are done paying back that deal, that 700m is worth half of what it initially was worth.

1% increase in lease per year when inflation is normally twice that lol. Just an incredible deal for CSEC and no one else. I doubt ticket prices only increase by 1% per year as just an example.

I'm just pointing out it works out to more than the 400m that everyone is claiming.

I'm pretty neutral on this arena... but both sides are intentionally skewing things and ignoring things to try and be right.

 

[RichLittle]

I am sure many aren't but clearly not enough or not strongly enough to do something about it. I remember the Edmonton arena talks also stretching many miserable years but at least everything was out in the open to discuss before anything got accepted. Council got hammered by tax payers left and right at every meeting for even entertaining anything dumb. In Calgary it seems that everything is done behind closed doors with the city just signing away accepting stuff and then surprising the public later. That is not right. I would be demanding resignations left and right. That overrun decision is borderline criminal.

Both City and Provincial governments were recently elected. You can scream 'resign' all you want and it's not gonna change their decisions.
Flames arena talks went on for years too, no different than Edmonton. In the end, despite your supposed taxpayer backlash Edmonton caved to Katz and Calgary caved to Murray. Only difference is the provincial money, but that's Danielle Smith buying votes.

 

[DJJones]

You are stating that as if it's either get fleeced or the flames are gone. Look at what its taking for Arizona to be allowed to leave. I am pretty sure there is an in between and a lot more time for Calgary to negotiate. This is as crap of a deal to taxpayers that I've ever seen but I guess with Calgarians having this bent over mentality, good for them. At least I am only on the hook for it for 300 million and being hours away, will never set foot in it. I just can't wait to see Calgarians when this 1 billion arena turns into a 2 billion arena. Then I think we will finally see the outrage but at that point the billionaires are going to smile and say gotchya.

Flames leave and they'd still build an arena. A city this big isn't just going to not have a big event center/arena.

Like they just built the library and are remodeling that other building. Only difference is this building has a long term tenant

 

[11Messier]

Both City and Provincial governments were recently elected. You can scream 'resign' all you won't and it's not gonna change their decisions.
Flames arena talks went on for years too, no different than Edmonton. In the end, despite your supposed taxpayer backlash Edmonton caved to Katz and Calgary caved to Murray. Only difference is the provincial money, but that's Danielle Smith buying votes.

I am not saying that Calgary shouldn't cave. They are badly in need of a new arena, Allowing the Flames to leave would also be an enormous mistake. But there was still a lot of time left on the table and the deal they got is not even close to the same as Edmontons. As you know Calgary already had a deal in place in what I would already consider a cave, that fell apart because of Covid (not anyones fault). Regardless what I think about it, the province decided to pitch in 300 million that wasn't it that first deal. How in the world with a 300 million infusion did the deal end up getting way worse for Calgary tax payers?

As you said, they both caved, which is expected and eventually needed to happen. But one differentiator that you seem to have missed is the blank cheque on overruns that the city (I mean tax payers) will be responsible for. That is my biggest issue and is why I would be demanding resignations. That is not good business and to accept that deal without conferring with the public, to me is criminal. Council is hired by the tax payers. Why was this not presented and discussed with the public before getting accepted?

 

[HarrySPlinkett]

Flames leave and they'd still build an arena. A city this big isn't just going to not have a big event center/arena.

Like they just built the library and are remodeling that other building. Only difference is this building has a long term tenant

Correct - with or without the Flames, the city needed a new event centre.

This way, CSEC (and the provincial government) is paying some significant chunk of the cost.

Bringing us back again to “something >>> nothing”

I am not saying that Calgary shouldn't cave. They are badly in need of a new arena, Allowing the Flames to leave would also be an enormous mistake. But there was still a lot of time left on the table and the deal they got is not even close to the same as Edmontons. As you know Calgary already had a deal in place in what I would already consider a cave, that fell apart because of Covid (not anyones fault). Regardless what I think about it, the province decided to pitch in 300 million that wasn't it that first deal. How in the world with a 300 million infusion did the deal end up getting way worse for Calgary tax payers?

As you said, they both caved, which is expected and eventually needed to happen. But one differentiator that you seem to have missed is the blank cheque on overruns that the city (I mean tax payers) will be responsible for. That is my biggest issue and is why I would be demanding resignations. That is not good business and to accept that deal without conferring with the public, to me is criminal. Council is hired by the tax payers. Why was this not presented and discussed with the public before getting accepted?

Because we already had two elections where the arena was a central issue.

 

[RichLittle]

Part of the reason that whole area is such a wasteland in the first place though...is that they've been holding that land as basically useless empty, non-revenue generating parking lots for ages. In anticipation of cutting a deal like this where the public foot a huge portion of the bill on redeveloping the area and building a new arena. Basically kicking their boots up and waiting for the public to polish them.

They deliberately made it a problem, to make it seem more pressing for the public to address it. Even the Saddledome itself, they intentionally allowed cheap, easy cosmetic fixes to go undone...in an effort to make the building look more decrepit than it actually is.


The reality is...when this is all said and done, it's very likely they just end up shuffling some of the parking lots around to different locations, so it's a slightly different sort of empty wasteland with a new arena in the middle. Despite the general parking surplus in downtown anyway.


If this actually spurs some of the proposed surrounding development, and helps get the new transit line moving...that starts to make more sense from a public investment standpoint. But it's not entirely clear whether that'll happen. There's not really any firm commitment to it. More of a "wait and see" where it's entirely possible all that area sees...is basically the arena moving across the street, with a few shops/restaurants that only see any traffic on game days/concerts/event

I am not saying that Calgary shouldn't cave. They are badly in need of a new arena, Allowing the Flames to leave would also be an enormous mistake. But there was still a lot of time left on the table and the deal they got is not even close to the same as Edmontons. As you know Calgary already had a deal in place in what I would already consider a cave, that fell apart because of Covid (not anyones fault). Regardless what I think about it, the province decided to pitch in 300 million that wasn't it that first deal. How in the world with a 300 million infusion did the deal end up getting way worse for Calgary tax payers?

As you said, they both caved, which is expected and eventually needed to happen. But one differentiator that you seem to have missed is the blank cheque on overruns that the city (I mean tax payers) will be responsible for. That is my biggest issue and is why I would be demanding resignations. That is not good business and to accept that deal without conferring with the public, to me is criminal. Council is hired by the tax payers. Why was this not presented and discussed with the public before getting accepted?

Why wasn't it discussed? It was, in fact it was why the last deal got nixed just last year. In the end, they cant invite 1.6 million people to collaborate on all the details.... You have a misunderstanding of what elected officials are. They were chosen to make these decisions for the entire city.
You can't scream murder when they make a decision YOU don't like. Many others don't care.
Also, the overruns aren't all city's responsibility. Read the deal details here With deal finalized, construction can begin on $1.2B replacement for Saddledome

 

[red devil]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1813648061652197709

 

[norrisnick]

Every city needs to start holding firm on these deals.

If you, as a billionaire (or controlling person of an entity that controls billions of dollars in assets) cannot afford a suitable arena and/or pay the requisite rent/lease/whatever along with all the taxes that go with it. Don't buy a shiny pro franchise. Period. It's the height of grift to buy a team. Hold the team ransom to whatever city it's attached to. And then flip the team whenever you get bored of it along with it's cushy arena/lease agreement that more than pays for what you paid for the team in the first place. It's a giant hustle.

Please, take my tax dollars so I get to retain the privilege of spending dumb money on tickets, ticket surcharges, parking, and concessions. Only to then go through the same dog and pony show in 10-20 years when you want to rennovate for more and bigger luxury boxes and further price out the fans.

 

[JPT]

And there better not be any provincial money. After what was said by our current premier as opposition....leading into the election, talk about vote buying.

But that is enough politics....but impossible to avoid it when talking arenas in Canada because large arenas and their tennents are public cash grabbing whores and politicians are all too happy to oblige

The United States and the municipalities therein love giving tax money to already rich people, too. It's actually their favorite thing. Arenas, stadiums, convention centers, bail outs for people who wreck economies, huge government contracts that keep a certain centi-billionaire's space company from going broke. They absolutely love it.

 

[Three On Zero]

The area around the Saddledome is a wasteland.

It’s prime real estate, downtown, close to the river, and it’s been nothing but a waystation for buses and semis for 40 years.

Developing one of the city’s only prime unused locations is crucial. There’s no way this project isn’t going to be a huge part of this town’s character for the next 50+ years.

It should’ve been done years ago. It’s done now.

Get to shovelling.

They wanted the same outcome with the downtown arena in Edmonton, for the most part it’s backfired on them. It hasn’t done much to revitalize or turn the downtown core into something it wasn’t prior to the arena being built

 

[Three On Zero]

People are starving, our healthcare system is in shambles, homelessness and drug issues are high. And they decide to spend a f***ton of taxpayer money on a billionaires plaything for millionaires to play in where they will charge those same taxpayers $6 for a bottle of water. By the time this might make the city money, the Flames will need a new building. And the cycle will continue.

Something tells me if the arena situations were flipped and Calgary built theirs while Edmonton was working on a new one, this comment wouldn’t be here.

 

[thegazelle]

Please...for the love of everything good...please don't have "Rogers" in the name...

 

[Three On Zero]

Please...for the love of everything good...please don't have "Rogers" in the name...

Rogers Forum

 

[WarriorofTime]

Gotta be a sigh of relief for Flames fans

 

[Voight]

Every city needs to start holding firm on these deals.

If you, as a billionaire (or controlling person of an entity that controls billions of dollars in assets) cannot afford a suitable arena and/or pay the requisite rent/lease/whatever along with all the taxes that go with it. Don't buy a shiny pro franchise. Period. It's the height of grift to buy a team. Hold the team ransom to whatever city it's attached to. And then flip the team whenever you get bored of it along with it's cushy arena/lease agreement that more than pays for what you paid for the team in the first place. It's a giant hustle.

Please, take my tax dollars so I get to retain the privilege of spending dumb money on tickets, ticket surcharges, parking, and concessions. Only to then go through the same dog and pony show in 10-20 years when you want to rennovate for more and bigger luxury boxes and further price out the fans.

That'll never happen.

No mayor/governor wants to be the person who let the beloved local sports team leave.

The United States and the municipalities therein love giving tax money to already rich people, too. It's actually their favorite thing. Arenas, stadiums, convention centers, bail outs for people who wreck economies, huge government contracts that keep a certain centi-billionaire's space company from going broke. They absolutely love it.

Convention Centers are usually owned by the city or county FWIW.

 

[norrisnick]

That'll never happen.

No mayor/governor wants to be the person who let the beloved local sports team leave.



Convention Centers are usually owned by the city or county FWIW.

It's called collusion. If no city gives up half a billion or more in funds/tax breaks, it's not worth it to move.

Or pass some legislation. No privately owned sports franchise is eligible for taxpayer funding or tax exemptions on arena deals. Make these guys actually pay for their toys.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Something tells me if the arena situations were flipped and Calgary built theirs while Edmonton was working on a new one, this comment wouldn’t be here.

It would be cause still here cause I’m against publically funding billionaires buildings in general.

 

[Drake1588]

I don't think there's anything wrong with holding firm and refusing to give a sports owner concessions on a building or operations, etc. That said, if that decision leads an owner to leave for greener pastures where someone else is prepared to make those concessions, then the municipality made its bed and has to lie in it.

The owner is basically giving the original city right of first refusal. Otherwise, the team will explore options elsewhere.

Compromise from both sides like this is probably the way it should go. Neither side got everything it wanted, and the team stayed.

 

[BertCorbeau]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1813648061652197709

That location is perfect

 

[BB79]

The United States and the municipalities therein love giving tax money to already rich people, too. It's actually their favorite thing. Arenas, stadiums, convention centers, bail outs for people who wreck economies, huge government contracts that keep a certain centi-billionaire's space company from going broke. They absolutely love it.

Something about politicians who have been involved in politics for 54 years are to blame. Rich people in charge of everything. What could possibly go wrong?