Calgary announces agreement for new $1.2 billion arena for the Flames

[BraveCanadian]

Do cities benefit from subsidizing sports arenas? Economists are skeptical. - Macleans.ca

"The research is pretty clear that there aren't aggregate benefits of such subsidies for the city as a whole,'' said Trevor Tombe

macleans.ca

The Economics of Subsidizing Sports Stadiums

Proponents say subsidizing stadiums is justified because of the economic impact it will have on the community. Stadiums are huge construction projects and hold the promise of new, nearby development taking root. Despite these arguments, economists generally oppose subsidizing professional sports...

research.stlouisfed.org

It’s a bad deal. Most economists take that position.

And again, saying that Albertans are hypocrites. Many of us opposed the funding towards keystone and have been upset with our government. I keep pointing out that Calgary voted for change but it falls on deaf ears. 44% of albertans in deep blue alberta voted for the f***ing NDP. And remind me, where in Gondek’s policy platform did she say she was going to let Murray Edwards and co bend over Calgarians? There hasn’t been an election to gauge public opinion, but I don’t think she holds well…

Blame the public? Get out of here man.

I thought this was pretty common knowledge at this point. If the public is on the hook for cost overruns this is gonna get real ugly. But in the end, people will end up ignoring or forgetting about it, the rich get richer, and the world keeps turning.

 

[Voight]

I thought this was pretty common knowledge at this point. If the public is on the hook for cost overruns this is gonna get real ugly. But in the end, people will end up ignoring or forgetting about it, the rich get richer, and the world keeps turning.

It happens almost every time a team need a new arena/stadium/ballpark etc. Except for a few cases like SoFi Stadium & Oracle Park, local and state/provincial governments are expected to put up a good chunk of the money.

No mayor or governor wants to be the one who let their pro sports team leave. Its a legacy ruiner.

 

[11Messier]

If this was wh

As an Edmontonian I’m pissed that provincial money is being used on this. If the city of Calgary pays for this sure whatever. But there is so much other things the province needs to work on, building one city an arena is wild.

I love how all overages, flood damage etc is all up to the city to deal with. The Flames have zero worries it’s amazing

This.

Worse than provincial politics using this to buy votes instead of doing what is best for the province, I can't believe the people of Calgary are okay with the city basically giving billionaires a blank cheque for over runs. There would have been a Lynch mob in Edmonton if this was even presented.

Billionaires are billionaires for a reason. If you don't think they are going to take advantage of this, you're crazy. The overruns on this project are going to be astronimical because a lot of people are going to be lining their pockets. Shocking that the citizens of Calgary are okay with all the hush hush decisions being made and the price they are paying for this.

 

[super6646]

If this was wh

This.

Worse than provincial politics using this to buy votes instead of doing what is best for the province, I can't believe the people of Calgary are okay with the city basically giving billionaires a blank cheque for over runs. There would have been a Lynch mob in Edmonton if this was even presented.

Billionaires are billionaires for a reason. If you don't think they are going to take advantage of this, you're crazy. The overruns on this project are going to be astronimical because a lot of people are going to be lining their pockets. Shocking that the citizens of Calgary are okay with all the hush hush decisions being made and the price they are paying for this.

Many citizens in Calgary are not okay with this lol

 

[11Messier]

Many citizens in Calgary are not okay with this lol

I am sure many aren't but clearly not enough or not strongly enough to do something about it. I remember the Edmonton arena talks also stretching many miserable years but at least everything was out in the open to discuss before anything got accepted. Council got hammered by tax payers left and right at every meeting for even entertaining anything dumb. In Calgary it seems that everything is done behind closed doors with the city just signing away accepting stuff and then surprising the public later. That is not right. I would be demanding resignations left and right. That overrun decision is borderline criminal.

 

[deleted user]

Calgary gonna Calgary.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

I think you are clearly exaggerating or viewing the worse case scenario....your alternative I am guessing is let the Flames walk away from our city? How would that help us economically? I believe if we do a Cost/Benefit analysis, you will see that in the short term possibly but absolutely in the long term, economically speaking, the Flames add huge amounts of dollars to the city.....think about how much in taxes we get off from the Flames and their owners? You are not seeing the larger picture......while I would agree this is not a perfect deal, the alternative does not bear thinking about.

Those taxes don't leave the area. The people in the city are paying the Flames salaries by going to Flames games. If the Flames were not there, they would be spending that extra money on other things - items or other entertainment options from other companies. The people that are employed by these companies also pay taxes last I checked. There wouldn't be any net loss in taxes for Alberta.

 

[Lunatik]

Those taxes don't leave the area. The people in the city are paying the Flames salaries by going to Flames games. If the Flames were not there, they would be spending that extra money on other things - items or other entertainment options from other companies. The people that are employed by these companies also pay taxes last I checked. There wouldn't be any net loss in taxes for Alberta.

Except that players who play games in AB get taxed. For simple math let's say the NHL season is 200 days, that means players are being paid 5k for every 1m on the ice/bench. At 40% tax, that's 2K in taxes for every 1m dressed for that game.

It's also 15+ multimillionaires living in and spending money in the city.

That would absolutely be an economic loss and tax loss.

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

It's just another way to funnel public money to Oil Sands major shareholders.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Except that players who play games in AB get taxed. For simple math let's say the NHL season is 200 days, that means players are being paid 5k for every 1m on the ice/bench. At 40% tax, that's 2K in taxes for every 1m dressed for that game.

It's also 15+ multimillionaires living in and spending money in the city.

That would absolutely be an economic loss and tax loss.

No it wouldn't be. Again the money that pays their salaries, whether it be from individuals or corporations buying seats, would be reallocated to other businesses. Any business that sees an uptake in business will have to hire more additional employees. Those additional employees will pay taxes so there isn't any tax loss. Tax payments are shifted from a handful of billionaires to hundreds or thousands of middle income earners.

Worth noting that any additional middle or working income persons are more likely to spend their money in the local economy than some millionaire hockey player who spends a good portion of their time and income in other countries that doesn't benefit the local community.

 

[HarrySPlinkett]

Is it really better than nothing if the taxpayers have to pay high prices to even take part?
Like your money is being spent so they can change you big money to see what your tax dollars bought you. It’s insane.

Yes.

They needed a new arena.

This is Calgary - we like nice things. Our taxes go up all the time - at least this time, it’s comes with some cool stuff.

Besides, the event centre/development of the river district is well within the wheelhouse of the city and provincial government. It’s just a big construction project.

Fixing homelessness and the opioid crises, on the other hand…

Not these jokers. Not any of them.

 

[gach]

I am sure many aren't but clearly not enough or not strongly enough to do something about it. I remember the Edmonton arena talks also stretching many miserable years but at least everything was out in the open to discuss before anything got accepted. Council got hammered by tax payers left and right at every meeting for even entertaining anything dumb. In Calgary it seems that everything is done behind closed doors with the city just signing away accepting stuff and then surprising the public later. That is not right. I would be demanding resignations left and right. That overrun decision is borderline criminal.

Maybe people in calgary will get rid of their left wing mayor next election but I don't think it will happen

 

[MMC]

Never seen a fanbase in any sport so upset over their team getting a new venue

 

[deleted user]

Never seen a fanbase in any sport so upset over their team getting a new venue

We're a messy bunch.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

So by my calculation, 71% publicly funded? 330M from province, 528M from the city?

CSEC ratf***ed the taxpayers hard. Oof.

Holy crap they're getting screwed.

So the owner pays roughly $400 million for something that is worth $1.2 billion? that's a pretty good scam.

Never seen a fanbase in any sport so upset over their team getting a new venue

I can't speak for Calgary fans but I think there's growing public sentiment that it's ridiculous for tax payers to foot the bill for billionaires new arenas.

The Red Wings former owner Mike Illitch is generally well regarded and has done a lot for the Detroit, but absolute fleeced the city when building the new arena during a time when the city was bankrupt.

 

[MMC]

Holy crap they're getting screwed.

So the owner pays roughly $400 million for something that is worth $1.2 billion? that's a pretty good scam.


I can't speak for Calgary fans but I think there's growing public sentiment that it's ridiculous for tax payers to foot the bill for billionaires new arenas.

The Red Wings former owner Mike Illitch is generally well regarded and has done a lot for the Detroit, but absolute fleeced the city when building the new arena during a time when the city was bankrupt.

I think most of the shit my taxes go to is a waste of money, so I can’t imagine being pressed about a stadium/arena

 

[HarrySPlinkett]

Never seen a fanbase in any sport so upset over their team getting a new venue

We’re kinda stupid like that.

Like, just before COVID, there was a referendum held to bid on the Olympics.

Keep in mind two things:

1. the 1988 Olympics is still, to this day, the only thing Calgary is famous for globally. The legacy of those games endures to this day, as both a training hub for winter sports athletes as well as the facilities that are still key parts of life in this city.

2. Getting the Olympics would’ve triggered $5B in investment from the federal and provincial governments (desperately needed then, SOOOOO much more needed now)

We said no.

Because we’re cheap ****s.

 

[Three On Zero]

Never seen a fanbase in any sport so upset over their team getting a new venue

It’s more so the political business and incoming tax increase that people are leery about. But that’s a conversation for a different venue

 

[HarrySPlinkett]

It’s more so the political business and incoming tax increase that people are leery about. But that’s a conversation for a different venue

People voted for the UCP knowing exactly who they were and what they were peddling - this arena framework was proposed and agreed to before the last provincial election, and the province still decided to vote Blue.

We also voted two mayoral elections ago to send Nenshi to get a deal done with CSEC for the new building - he got it done, and then COVID happened. Life is crazy like that.

As for the tax increases… if your taxes go up by roughly the cost of a night out per year, or two nights out per year, and the result is a new arena and a new entertainment district downtown with C-train access akin to Nashville‘s Broadway, deal with it or move somewhere else where you can buy a detached single family home for less than $1M.

 

[DJJones]

No it wouldn't be. Again the money that pays their salaries, whether it be from individuals or corporations buying seats, would be reallocated to other businesses. Any business that sees an uptake in business will have to hire more additional employees. Those additional employees will pay taxes so there isn't any tax loss. Tax payments are shifted from a handful of billionaires to hundreds or thousands of middle income earners.

Worth noting that any additional middle or working income persons are more likely to spend their money in the local economy than some millionaire hockey player who spends a good portion of their time and income in other countries that doesn't benefit the local community.

If the flames leave I'm not spending the extra thousands in Calgary. Hell the only reason I go downtown is the flames.

Probably go on another vacation each year.

No way another hundred million in payroll comes out of them leaving. Downtown would just be even more lifeless

 

[viper0220]

I really hope price of an oil barrel skyrockets, this is the only way out of this mess.

 

[Sra1974]

Never seen a fanbase in any sport so upset over their team getting a new venue

The province isn’t building enough schools or hospitals, or staffing them. The owners of the team are billionaires who made money off of favourable provincial policies towards their core businesses and are then getting provincial money to also house their ego project. Lots of reasons to be against the funding scheme.

 

[MMC]

The province isn’t building enough schools or hospitals, or staffing them. The owners of the team are billionaires who made money off of favourable provincial policies towards their core businesses and are then getting provincial money to also house their ego project. Lots of reasons to be against the funding scheme.

And they will continue not doing that regardless of this plan gets rejected or not

 

[11Messier]

If the flames leave I'm not spending the extra thousands in Calgary. Hell the only reason I go downtown is the flames.

Probably go on another vacation each year.

No way another hundred million in payroll comes out of them leaving. Downtown would just be even more lifeless

You are stating that as if it's either get fleeced or the flames are gone. Look at what its taking for Arizona to be allowed to leave. I am pretty sure there is an in between and a lot more time for Calgary to negotiate. This is as crap of a deal to taxpayers that I've ever seen but I guess with Calgarians having this bent over mentality, good for them. At least I am only on the hook for it for 300 million and being hours away, will never set foot in it. I just can't wait to see Calgarians when this 1 billion arena turns into a 2 billion arena. Then I think we will finally see the outrage but at that point the billionaires are going to smile and say gotchya.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I was listening to the Fan960 and they were talking about the possibility of ASGs, the draft, the WCH, and I'm just like...

"You know Edmonton hasn't gotten any of those things, right?"